Karma is not maya (illusion)

[Bindi]

35 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

unconditional Love from Spirit changes us without any devices or motives for itself...

(and it can not be bought, sold or forced with our efforts and acts with power per its own wisdom beyond any "normal" understanding of who deserves it or not)

 

 

Would you equate ‘Spirit’ with the Shiva archetype within?

[johndoe2012]

10 hours ago, Bindi said:

How would anyone practically go about removing actual karma? Not conceptually, but energetically, directly. That seems like a good place to start.

 

Channel divine energy. 

 

Different systems, VortexHealing, Reiki, Magical Awakening. 

 

Meditative, Flying Phoenix Qigong. 

[liminal_luke]

11 hours ago, Bindi said:

Honestly, I’m just tired of hearing the same stock responses, especially from Buddhist and nondual traditions. 
 

 

Maybe it´s your karma?  On a less snarky note (sorry!), it´s not easy to change people.  Especially online.  In all my years of trying, I´m not sure I´ve ever changed someone´s worldview or style of writing here on the forum -- which doesn´t seem fair as other people have changed mine.  Buddhists will be Buddhists.  Ain´t much anybody can do about them.

[stirling]

12 hours ago, Bindi said:

Honestly, I’m just tired of hearing the same stock responses, especially from Buddhist and nondual traditions. It often feels like the same counterpoints get recycled no matter the context - they’re so familiar that they’ve started to feel more like auto-pilot than insight.

 

You keep asking the same questions on the same board that represents non-dual viewpoints. It isn't a surprise that the answers come back in the same vein. Why not see if there are other boards you could add to your rotation that might be more in line with your belief system?

 

Quote

I’m trying to speak from a different layer. I’m not interested in theories. I’m interested in what changes us for real — what breaks the loop, opens the heart, allows actual higher consciousness to actually inhabit the body.

 

I'm actually with you on this one. Theories and beliefs are just noise. What you can actually EXPERIENCE is what matters. What if what you eventually experience doesn't jibe with your hard fought for beliefs about how it is supposed to be that you have cobbled together?

 

Quote

Karma needs to be healed in energetic reality — not understood and dismissed as part of a philosophical concept. Until it’s felt, integrated, and released at the level of the subtle body, I maintain it continues to shape our experience, no matter what view is espoused. 

 

If you really want something novel, may I suggest reading Michael Singer's "Untethered Soul". I actually have ALL of my new students read it for the reason that presents and excellent system for releasing karma. Everything you could need is actually in it.

[johndoe2012]

Bindi, try letting go with divine energy since what you are doing now doesn't seem to work. 

 

PM me if you want. 

[forestofclarity]

12 hours ago, Bindi said:

Honestly, I’m just tired of hearing the same stock responses, especially from Buddhist and nondual traditions. It often feels like the same counterpoints get recycled no matter the context - they’re so familiar that they’ve started to feel more like auto-pilot than insight.

 

The critiques strike me as clumsy, dismissive caricatures. But I'm sure the traditions will survive. Back in the day, Vedantins were said to worship a giant spider. Spiritual bypassing has been a subject of wide discussion in Buddhist circles for decades, and there have been currents going back millenia. 

 

12 hours ago, Bindi said:

I’m not interested in theories.

 

It seems to me the original post is based primarily on projecting stories onto an imagined "other." In this case, that "other" happens to include me, so it is a but bemusing. 

[johndoe2012]

Well Buddhists seems to ignore the inner child. 

 

I started to behave differently when I grew up my inner child to an inner adult and got access to the inner king in the psyche. 

[Tommy]

9 hours ago, Bindi said:

But his “Unconditioned” realisation left him with many conditioned beliefs such as:

 

9 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

Sexism / Resistance to Women Ordaining

• The Buddha initially refused to ordain women and only agreed after repeated requests from Ananda, his devoted attendant.
• Even then, he set up extra rules (the garudhammas) for bhikkhunis (nuns), including that a nun of even 100 years’ standing must defer to any monk.
• He also predicted that allowing women into the sangha would shorten the lifespan of the Dharma by 500 years.

 This reflects deep cultural conditioning from the patriarchal society of his time, which he did not fully transcend.

 

 

Emphasis on Renunciation Over Life-Affirmation

• His path was one of withdrawal: celibacy, non-attachment, and monastic renunciation were central.
• There was little to no acknowledgment of the transformative power of relationships, sexuality, or embodiment as part of the path — things many modern paths embrace.

His teaching aligns more with rejection of the world than transformation of it.

 

There seems to be a belief that those who have had an enlightenment experience are blessed and pure. Which I believe is far from the truth. The people who have such experiences do not lose who they were; rather that, they keep their personality and add to their repertoire of understanding of the world. As the saying goes, before enlightenment chop wood and carry water. After enlightenment chop wood and carry water. Nothing changes and everything changes. To put your own ideas on another's experiences?? What does it say about your frame of reference? IDK. I am a simple person with a simple understanding.

[old3bob]

39 minutes ago, Tommy said:

 

There seems to be a belief that those who have had an enlightenment experience are blessed and pure. Which I believe is far from the truth. The people who have such experiences do not lose who they were; rather that, they keep their personality and add to their repertoire of understanding of the world. As the saying goes, before enlightenment chop wood and carry water. After enlightenment chop wood and carry water. Nothing changes and everything changes. To put your own ideas on another's experiences?? What does it say about your frame of reference? IDK. I am a simple person with a simple understanding.

 

granted that cracking the ego is not the death of ego but a start...It is said that those who have resolved enough karma may reach Moksha or freedom from transmigration and thus have lost who they once seemed to be on the wheel,  further and complete purity (or change) is then the final death of ego and separation. (having served their purpose)

[old3bob]

3 hours ago, Bindi said:

Would you equate ‘Spirit’ with the Shiva archetype within?

 

Well The Self of pure Spirit  is said to be within, although that Self within (the small lotus of the heart) is everywhere at once and not only within a particular place, time or Being. ( pointed to by the Upanishads)  Some debate may arise over aspects which can be named but the Self which is also a name is not really limited to a name.

Edited 10 hours ago by old3bob

[doc benway]

In my view and experience maya and karma are two aspects of the same “thing.” Both speak to the non-separation of self and other, one in terms of appearances and the other in terms of action. While we feel and live the relative truth of our expression of life as individual organisms, there is a level of truth that goes deeper and recognizes the inseparability of all of life. There are no living organisms that exist outside of their environment and through this environment all beings are interconnected in many ways. Any boundary we draw around anything is simply a convention of nomenclature, an artificial categorization, that has no basis in reality, just in concept, although they can be very useful depending on the nature of our practice and understanding. Even modern scientific paradigms in biology, ecology, psychology, sociology, chemistry, and physics acknowledge the non-dual nature of Being, it’s not limited to non-dual spiritual traditions and philosophy.

 

When we see the truth of karma what we (I) see is that I am exactly as I am, this experience at this very moment is exactly as it is, precisely because of every choice, every action taken by myself and every “other" being in time and space going back and forward in time ad infinitum. There is the relative truth of my own actions as an individual and how they affect myself, others, and the environment that I am in contact with. There is also the bigger picture of how everyone I come into contact with is simultaneously in contact with many others, spreading out in an infinite, interconnecting web of actions and reactions that conspire together to create what is here and now in experience, moment to moment. Change anything at all and everything changes to some degree, the butterfly effect. We can certainly isolate individual actions, reactions, and consequences, but that is an artificial distinction.

 

Maya is the misperception of the interconnectedness of Being in terms of appearance. Karma is the expression of the interconnectedness of Being in terms of action and reaction.

 

We can work at categorizing, separating, and healing each and every karmic trace step by step, one at a time and this can be very effective. It can also be extraordinarily complex and time consuming once we get beyond the most obvious and accessible challenges. We can also work at healing karma without all of the separation, dissection, and artificial isolation of individual karmic traces by looking to the root of it all, the misguided sense of separateness itself. This is an equally valid method, more holistic, but not accessible or efficient for everyone.

 

2 hours ago, Tommy said:

There seems to be a belief that those who have had an enlightenment experience are blessed and pure. Which I believe is far from the truth. The people who have such experiences do not lose who they were; rather that, they keep their personality and add to their repertoire of understanding of the world. As the saying goes, before enlightenment chop wood and carry water. After enlightenment chop wood and carry water. Nothing changes and everything changes. To put your own ideas on another's experiences?? What does it say about your frame of reference? IDK. I am a simple person with a simple understanding.

 

 

I agree with you. While there is a sense of “self-awareness,” of "awareness recognizing itself,” of “abiding in the nature of mind,” of “non-meditation,” and other such convenient and sexy sounding labels we use to describe our experience (I’m not interested in theory), it’s my opinion and experience that as long as we are human beings, we never completely transcend human experience, although we may come “close,” whether in our day to day life, in our practice, or in the clear light of sleep. These "blessed and pure” enlightening experiences are, in my opinion and experience, what it feels like when a particular obstacle or obscuration is released or dissolved. They are a taste but not a perfect experience of ultimate reality, per se; they are human experiences of a deeper and more pervasive sense of what it is to be human, approaching the purity of the abiding base in an asymptotic manner. This is why distinctions are made in some traditions between base and path rigpa. When different people have these enlightening experiences they use different adjectives and adverbs to describe them - things like pervasive, unbounded, clear, spacious, immortal, unborn and so forth. While all of these are characteristics of the fundamental essence of Being, we are not that, we are human practitioners, and therefore we have human experiences. Each of these experiences represent the transcendence of how we were previously feeling limited in time and space in one way or another.

[old3bob]

19 minutes ago, doc benway said:

In my view and experience maya and karma are two aspects of the same “thing.” Both speak to the non-separation of self and other, one in terms of appearances and the other in terms of action. While we feel and live the relative truth of our expression of life as individual organisms, there is a level of truth that goes deeper and recognizes the inseparability of all of life. There are no living organisms that exist outside of their environment and through this environment all beings are interconnected in many ways. Any boundary we draw around anything is simply a convention of nomenclature, an artificial categorization, that has no basis in reality, just in concept, although they can be very useful depending on the nature of our practice and understanding. Even modern scientific paradigms in biology, ecology, psychology, sociology, chemistry, and physics acknowledge the non-dual nature of Being, it’s not limited to non-dual spiritual traditions and philosophy.

 

When we see the truth of karma what we (I) see is that I am exactly as I am, this experience at this very moment is exactly as it is, precisely because of every choice, every action taken by myself and every “other" being in time and space going back and forward in time ad infinitum. There is the relative truth of my own actions as an individual and how they affect myself, others, and the environment that I am in contact with. There is also the bigger picture of how everyone I come into contact with is simultaneously in contact with many others, spreading out in an infinite, interconnecting web of actions and reactions that conspire together to create what is here and now in experience, moment to moment. Change anything at all and everything changes to some degree, the butterfly effect. We can certainly isolate individual actions, reactions, and consequences, but that is an artificial distinction.

 

Maya is the misperception of the interconnectedness of Being in terms of appearance. Karma is the expression of the interconnectedness of Being in terms of action and reaction.

 

We can work at categorizing, separating, and healing each and every karmic trace step by step, one at a time and this can be very effective. It can also be extraordinarily complex and time consuming once we get beyond the most obvious and accessible challenges. We can also work at healing karma without all of the separation, dissection, and artificial isolation of individual karmic traces by looking to the root of it all, the misguided sense of separateness itself. This is an equally valid method, more holistic, but not accessible or efficient for everyone.

 

 

 

I agree with you. While there is a sense of “self-awareness,” of "awareness recognizing itself,” of “abiding in the nature of mind,” of “non-meditation,” and other such convenient and sexy sounding labels we use to describe our experience (I’m not interested in theory), it’s my opinion and experience that as long as we are human beings, we never completely transcend human experience, although we may come “close,” whether in our day to day life, in our practice, or in the clear light of sleep. These "blessed and pure” enlightening experiences are, in my opinion and experience, what it feels like when a particular obstacle or obscuration is released or dissolved. They are a taste but not a perfect experience of ultimate reality, per se; they are human experiences of a deeper and more pervasive sense of what it is to be human, approaching the purity of the abiding base in an asymptotic manner. This is why distinctions are made in some traditions between base and path rigpa. When different people have these enlightening experiences they use different adjectives and adverbs to describe them - things like pervasive, unbounded, clear, spacious, immortal, unborn and so forth. While all of these are characteristics of the fundamental essence of Being, we are not that, we are human practitioners, and therefore we have human experiences. Each of these experiences represent the transcendence of how we were previously feeling limited in time and space in one way or another.

 

we are apparently and only or just human per human identification, but the Truth is greater per Om Tat Sat...

[Bindi]

49 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

we are apparently and only or just human per human identification, but the Truth is greater per Om Tat Sat...

I had to look up Om Tat Sat, and came across Hari Om Tat Sat, which is what I’m getting at:

 

Quote

When chanted alone, Om Tat Sat refers to absolute and unmanifested reality or truth. However, this mantra may sometimes include the prefix Hari, referring to God in the physical form. When chanted together, Hari Om Tat Sat is used to awaken practitioners to the true or higher self, beyond the physical body. Yogapedia

 

[Bindi]

5 hours ago, stirling said:

 

You keep asking the same questions on the same board that represents non-dual viewpoints. It isn't a surprise that the answers come back in the same vein. Why not see if there are other boards you could add to your rotation that might be more in line with your belief system?
 

 

Actually, I arrived here with an interest in some neidan images I had come across. Neidan is not nondualist, it’s a process that comprehends duality (yin/yang), stages of transformation, and embodiment. Remember the interests of the founder of this site? But having an interest in these things I’m now politely being shown the door? 
 

This board shouldn’t “represent non-dual views”, non-dual views are just the loudest voices. 

 

5 hours ago, stirling said:

 

I'm actually with you on this one. Theories and beliefs are just noise. What you can actually EXPERIENCE is what matters. What if what you eventually experience doesn't jibe with your hard fought for beliefs about how it is supposed to be that you have cobbled together?
 

 

My beliefs are led only by my dreams and experience, and tend to align more with aspects of neidan and Sanatana dharma. 

 

5 hours ago, stirling said:

 

If you really want something novel, may I suggest reading Michael Singer's "Untethered Soul". I actually have ALL of my new students read it for the reason that presents and excellent system for releasing karma. Everything you could need is actually in it.

 

[Bindi]

4 hours ago, Tommy said:

 

There seems to be a belief that those who have had an enlightenment experience are blessed and pure. Which I believe is far from the truth. The people who have such experiences do not lose who they were; rather that, they keep their personality and add to their repertoire of understanding of the world. As the saying goes, before enlightenment chop wood and carry water. After enlightenment chop wood and carry water. Nothing changes and everything changes. To put your own ideas on another's experiences?? What does it say about your frame of reference? IDK. I am a simple person with a simple understanding.

I’m interested in higher consciousness being established within, where the personal self is dissolved, and ordinary mind and form are transcended. I think this does completely change who you are.

[Lairg]

17 minutes ago, Bindi said:

I’m interested in higher consciousness being established within, where the personal self is dissolved, and ordinary mind and form are transcended. I think this does completely change who you are.

 

Now it may be that the Absolute acts - and thereby produces internal and external change.

 

If so, it may be that the human is useful to the Absolute.

 

If so, the human may contain parts that operate both on the human level and on the level of Absolute actions

 

If so, the outer format of the human may endure after the initial stages of enlightenment, but now reformed with additional functions.

 

To put it more simply:  the personal self is renovated to become an instrument for the Absolute as it acts within Existence.

 

Thus the human is not here to escape but to unfold and become progressively more useful to and aware within the Absolute

 

 

 

 

[old3bob]

Ultimately there is only one of us in the many of us...and with that realization there really are no private, secret or separate super dupers except in relative realms. 

[Bindi]

1 hour ago, old3bob said:

Ultimately there is only one of us in the many of us...

 

 

I don’t know this experientially ant this point and I won’t believe it as an article of faith. 

 

1 hour ago, old3bob said:

and with that realization there really are no private, secret or separate super dupers except in relative realms. 

 

[stirling]

2 hours ago, Bindi said:

Actually, I arrived here with an interest in some neidan images I had come across. Neidan is not nondualist, it’s a process that comprehends duality (yin/yang), stages of transformation, and embodiment. Remember the interests of the founder of this site?

 

Follow that path to the end and see what is there.

 

2 hours ago, Bindi said:

But having an interest in these things I’m now politely being shown the door?

 

That's just silly. Why would anyone (including me) do that? I am merely suggesting that if you aren't finding what you are looking for here, broaden your scope. I am here because I did just that, and still keep a hand in on a variety of Buddhist boards, Magick boards, and others that suit my interests as they arise.

[johndoe2012]

Neidan is also non dualist. It is the result of the path. Xing ming merge is the same as dissolving the 'I'. 

[old3bob]

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

 

I don’t know this experientially ant this point and I won’t believe it as an article of faith. 

 

 

 

that's fine, and can not be forced which would be "bad" karma, 

[Bindi]

Just now, johndoe2012 said:

Neidan is also non dualist. It is the result of the path. Xing ming merge is the same as dissolving the 'I'. 

I wouldn’t characterise alignment with the Dao as nonduality, as far as I can understand it alignment with the Dao is about making the spirit and the body one, divinising the human to reflect the Dao. The mundane ego “I” may be dissolved, but the ‘True yang’ or Yang Shen (or higher consciousness) replaces it. The outcome as I see it isn’t the erasure of individuality, but the embodiment of the Dao through a fully integrated human being.

[johndoe2012]

20 minutes ago, Bindi said:

I wouldn’t characterise alignment with the Dao as nonduality, as far as I can understand it alignment with the Dao is about making the spirit and the body one, divinising the human to reflect the Dao. The mundane ego “I” may be dissolved, but the ‘True yang’ or Yang Shen (or higher consciousness) replaces it. The outcome as I see it isn’t the erasure of individuality, but the embodiment of the Dao through a fully integrated human being.

 

Non duality is not the erasure of individuality. There is still a personality operating. 

[Bindi]

1 hour ago, johndoe2012 said:

 

Non duality is not the erasure of individuality. There is still a personality operating. 

Quote

 

A salt doll journeyed for thousands of miles over land, until it finally came to the sea.
It was fascinated by this strange moving mass, quite unlike anything it had ever seen before.
“Who are you?” said the salt doll to the sea.

 

 

The sea smilingly replied, “Come in and see.”
So the doll waded in. The farther it walked into the sea the more it dissolved, until there was only very little of it left.

 

 

Before that last bit dissolved, the doll exclaimed in wonder,

 “Now I know what I am!”

 

What part of the salt doll is personality?