What is meant by Emptiness?? Especially in meditation??

[Tommy]

When I was first taught how to meditate, no one mentioned emptiness. Just how to sit relaxed and watch the breath. Not to get caught up in chasing thoughts. And after some practice, I can sit in what I consider some quiet. I observe my breath. I observe my mind. Thoughts come and go. There are times when I can not tell the different from watching myself from just being myself. I have read a lot about emptiness lately but still do not understand the meaning.

 

I am reminded of the story of Bodhidharma's visit to the Shaolin Temple. He went into a room where the monks were suppose to spend all the time there in meditation and not speaking.  Bodhidharma asked what the monks were doing there. The monks replied with something like they wanted to become enlightened or become Buddha like. So, Bodhidharma picked up a roof tile and started rubbing it against the ground. The other monks asked him what he was doing. I think he said something like if you can practice meditation to become enlightened then I can polish this roof tile to become a mirror. It just shows the actions are not congruent. One doesn't lead to the other.

 

So, practice doesn't make one become enlightened. But, without practice then there may be no chance to become enlightened?? IDK. Is one awareness? And does keeping that awareness clear and empty allow one to see the truth of nature? When I first started and much younger, I so wanted to experience this. Then having read that the person who want this isn't the same person to experience this. I no longer believe this to be my wish. I think the experiences along the way is what is important. And the people we meet along the way helps us to understand more. So what does emptiness mean especially during meditation?

 

Please feel free to say anything. I appreciate replies especially if you are not on my ignore list. 

Edited 15 hours ago by Tommy

[Lairg]

It seems to me that all parts of the human have at least two uses.

 

For example the intelligence that operates the personality, at first stage enlightenment, transitions from defense to creativity.

 

I recall long ago, TM meditators complaining that they were losing their personality.  That may have felt a bit empty, but they were just losing the most obvious (obnoxious?) parts of their persona (mask)

 

It may be that the apparent emptiness is soon filled by beneficial qualities previously obscured.

 

Later the human initiate becomes active outside the planet as well as within the human race

 

 

[stirling]

10 hours ago, Tommy said:

When I was first taught how to meditate, no one mentioned emptiness. Just how to sit relaxed and watch the breath. Not to get caught up in chasing thoughts. And after some practice, I can sit in what I consider some quiet.

 

If you don't mind me asking, who or what tradition taught you to meditate? It sounds like you have landed close to the mark for early stage meditator, which is fantastic. Few make it this far. 

 

10 hours ago, Tommy said:

I observe my breath. I observe my mind. Thoughts come and go. There are times when I can not tell the different from watching myself from just being myself.

 

This is great, and a real hint at how things are. Some questions you can pose yourself when your mind is quiet: What if everything just comes and goes, including "Tommy". Where is Tommy where there is stillness? These are direct hints at that nature of mind. 

 

10 hours ago, Tommy said:

I have read a lot about emptiness lately but still do not understand the meaning.

 

Do you have a teacher who has been approved to teach in a lineage tradition? In most decent sized towns and cities there are one, or a few of these people. If you find one in a no -dual tradition that does "direct pointing" (Advaita Vedanta, Sufi, Buddhism, Hinduism) you might get someone who can show you. If not feel free to message me. I find that this sort of thing is easiest in person, but have had some success over Zoom.

 

10 hours ago, Tommy said:

I am reminded of the story of Bodhidharma's visit to the Shaolin Temple. He went into a room where the monks were suppose to spend all the time there in meditation and not speaking.  Bodhidharma asked what the monks were doing there. The monks replied with something like they wanted to become enlightened or become Buddha like. So, Bodhidharma picked up a roof tile and started rubbing it against the ground. The other monks asked him what he was doing. I think he said something like if you can practice meditation to become enlightened then I can polish this roof tile to become a mirror. It just shows the actions are not congruent. One doesn't lead to the other.

 

This is correct. To put it more clearly:

 

Quote

To seek Mind with discriminating mind
is the greatest of all mistakes.

- Tsin Tsin Ming, Seng T'san

 

 

10 hours ago, Tommy said:

So, practice doesn't make one become enlightened. But, without practice then there may be no chance to become enlightened?? IDK.

 

Enlightenment isn't caused by a practice, it is made more likely however, depending on the practice. 

 

Quote

“Gaining enlightenment is an accident. Spiritual practice simply makes us accident-prone.” - Shunryu Suzuki Roshi

 

Without practice can there be enlightenment? It is less likely, but yes. In the same way that having an intention and doing the ground work for something in the future makes it more likely to happen, practice of a constructive type can make conditions more favorable. The trick, however, is not to equate practice to enlightenment, and cling to practices as an absolutely reliable method. One of the first realizations of the awakened is that "rites and rituals" aren't the cause of it. Clinging to rites and rituals drops away:

 

Quote

Clinging to rites and rituals — The view that one becomes pure simply through performing rituals (animal sacrifices, ablutions, chanting, etc.), adhering to rigid moralism, or relying on a god for non-causal delivery (issara nimmāna). Rites and rituals now function more to obscure than to support the right view of the sotāpanna's now-opened dharma eye. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sotāpanna#Three_fetters

 

10 hours ago, Tommy said:

Is one awareness?

 

Absolutely, depending on what "awareness" means to you, though I would say, "There is ONLY awareness". What I mean specifically is when your mind is still, and there is just observing the play of color and light that is the world, without labeling in the mind, or mental discourse about what is witnessed.

 

10 hours ago, Tommy said:

And does keeping that awareness clear and empty allow one to see the truth of nature?

 

That is my experience, and the view of many non-dual traditions. In fact, if you are doing it correctly you ARE seeing that "true nature", though you may not be enlightened to it.

 

Think of it like training a willow to become a fence, or a chair. For extreme bends you must gently train the willow in the direction you wish it to go every day until it naturally starts to have a curve. Eventually the willow will be bent and will just hold its new shape. Training the mind is the same. 

 

Resting the mind in awareness (buddha nature/Rigpa/primordial awareness/the nature of mind) increases the ease with which you can rest it, increases the amount of time it can stay there, increases the amount of times it spontaneously manifests in day to day life, and the chances that one day it will just click into place. 

 

10 hours ago, Tommy said:

When I first started and much younger, I so wanted to experience this. Then having read that the person who want this isn't the same person to experience this. I no longer believe this to be my wish. I think the experiences along the way is what is important. And the people we meet along the way helps us to understand more.

 

I encourage you to think of your practice like some of the more mundane daily activities you do. Do it every day at a non-negotiable time, like you would brushing your teeth or eating breakfast. Have no expectations, do not grasp or cling to it doing anything beyond making you more calm, less reactive, and a better person in your relationships. All of these will naturally be true with at least 20 minutes a day, though 40 is better if you can do it even occasionally.

 

10 hours ago, Tommy said:

So what does emptiness mean especially during meditation?

 

It means that time, self, and space drop out in a very familiar and actually quite mundane way. You are already experiencing emptiness every day of your life, but you don't have a word, or thought about it because that is not the nature of it. It is the space BETWEEN words and thoughts. It is easiest to notice when your mind is quiet and still in meditation, when you are paying attention and are "alert but relaxed". Given time the mind will eventually run itself out of its stream of thoughts and drop out. There will be pause in between the last thought and the next. The mind won't be labelling the objects you see in consciousness, like the table or lamp in front of you, or the mental objects in your thoughts. With your eyes open there will just be color and light, no objects being differentiated by the mind.

 

I hope this is helpful. _/\_

[Tommy]

@Stirling, Thanks for the reply. Your insights are very much appreciated.

 

 

Do I have a teacher from an approved tradition?

No, my mom was actually the first to teach me how to meditate. She taught me to count to three. One number for every complete breath. I practiced only a little bit. Later on, I had another teacher who was a bit unorthodox. He taught the forth way by Gurdjieff. What I learned from that was that if one wanted to improve oneself that one must spend much time in self observation. To understand that many react rather than respond to the environment. When someone says something and a person reacts that there is no self control. Where as a person who responds, that person takes the time to understand the situation and think before acting. Therefore, the person who responds is always in control of themselves. Only in this way can one learn how to put this house (self) in order. A lot of time was spent in meditation with incense and background music. There is a bit more to Gurdjieff but, I have forgotten. Later, I learned a little about Sufism thru books. And then Zen, rather Zen Buddhism. Haven't looked for another teacher but like to lurk on Buddhist forums. Learn what I can. Again, I really do appreciate your insights.

[stirling]

28 minutes ago, Tommy said:

Do I have a teacher from an approved tradition?

No, my mom was actually the first to teach me how to meditate. She taught me to count to three. One number for every complete breath. I practiced only a little bit.

 

How fortunate to encounter meditation at home. I didn't find it until I was in my teens. My parents were clueless about such things.

 

28 minutes ago, Tommy said:

Later on, I had another teacher who was a bit unorthodox. He taught the forth way by Gurdjieff. What I learned from that was that if one wanted to improve oneself that one must spend much time in self observation. To understand that many react rather than respond to the environment. When someone says something and a person reacts that there is no self control. Where as a person who responds, that person takes the time to understand the situation and think before acting. Therefore, the person who responds is always in control of themselves. Only in this way can one learn how to put this house (self) in order.

 

Indeed, my own teacher would say precisely the same thing. What we are in charge of is how we respond, NOT how the world is, or what happens next. 

 

28 minutes ago, Tommy said:

A lot of time was spent in meditation with incense and background music. There is a bit more to Gurdjieff but, I have forgotten. Later, I learned a little about Sufism thru books. And then Zen, rather Zen Buddhism. Haven't looked for another teacher but like to lurk on Buddhist forums. Learn what I can. Again, I really do appreciate your insights.

 

Zen I can help with, if you decide you want more guidance. _/\_