Is your Taijiquan effective in combat?

[Taiji Bum]

So is it? How do you know? I'm not asking about stories about someone you saw or your worshipful teacher.... but YOU!

 

This has really been bugging me and I started judo to really test myself and my skill level. I am not doing too good, btw. But as the ultimate optimist I am hoping I will get a gestalt soon and some of the mystical stuff I've done in the past with my taijiquan will become more consistent instead of a fluke of luck.

[Sahaj Nath]

i was gonna make this a new thread. i'm glad you did before me.

 

i remember when i was a young teen and (embarrassingly) a fan Van Dame's movie Bloodsport. that was the first time i'd ever seen muay thai. well, it was sort of muay thai. his movie Kickboxer, which was exclusively about muay thai (and just as bad as Bloodsport) came later. but by comparison to the martial arts practices i was into, it looked exotic and exciting. so i immediately ordered the first book i could find on it in the back of one of my kung fu magazines (no internet back then).

 

i remember reading that in 1974 five shaolin masters went to bangkok to fight in the rings. they demonstrated their power by shattering big rocks with their iron palm and all that. yet every one of them got knocked out in the first round. the same thing happened in subsequent years as well. i was totally disappointed. but that was when i began to understand bruce lee's attitude of eclecticism & concision.

 

i know shaolin isn't tai chi chuan and isn't even taoist. but i think the dogmatism and the removal from actual combat are the flaws in both cases.

Edited June 4, 2008 by Hundun

[Taomeow]

So is it? How do you know? I'm not asking about stories about someone you saw or your worshipful teacher.... but YOU!

 

Nah. Not much combat going on around, it's a nice neighborhood. Wish I knew some MA when I was a little girl growing up in a tough one, and getting into fights on a regular basis, regardless of whether I was going to win or lose.

 

In the highly unlikely case of "combat" in real life today, and in the highly unlikely scenario where I would be limited to my bare hands in the choice of weapons, I wouldn't rely on taiji either, my level of proficiency isn't high enough. Instead I would consider some of the methods of imperial assassins, who were overwhelmingly taoist females.

 

Hope this helps.

[rain]

Nah. Not much combat going on around, it's a nice neighborhood. Wish I knew some MA when I was a little girl growing up in a tough one, and getting into fights on a regular basis, regardless of whether I was going to win or lose.

 

In the highly unlikely case of "combat" in real life today, and in the highly unlikely scenario where I would be limited to my bare hands in the choice of weapons, I wouldn't rely on taiji either, my level of proficiency isn't high enough. Instead I would consider some of the methods of imperial assassins, who were overwhelmingly taoist females.

 

Hope this helps.

 

falling off chair.

ma. a hug for you.

 

[Trunk]

i know shaolin isn't tai chi chuan and isn't even taoist. but i think ... the removal from actual combat are the flaws in both cases.

I personally don't have interest in training to hurt people on an on-going basis. I really enjoyed training in halls where push-hands was prevalent. It was an enjoyable way to test & practice integral-integrity.

[Taiji Bum]

I personally don't have interest in training to hurt people on an on-going basis. I really enjoyed training in halls where push-hands was prevalent. It was an enjoyable way to test & practice integral-integrity.

Who said anything about hurting anyone? I was taught to treat your opponent gentle pushes and yielding like you would a 2 year old no matter how big they were or how much they wanted to hurt you. I've done push-hands for years and it really doesn't help with anything related to self-defense. I know we have all seen the youtube videos of the old guy using a gentle push to send an opponent flying 50 feet away but thats whats called LARP'ing.

 

(I am begging to get flamed, huh?)

[Vajrasattva]

my close buddy trains a very secret style of Tibetan Kung Fu. And his Sifu showed him that Tai chi was originally 8 postures much like a Yoga. And if you knew those 8 you could fight with them. The old timers could scrap that is for sure.

 

What you have now is a few internal principles and a few good push hands guys but no real combat. the real Tai Chi is "hidden".

 

Its kind of like the cherokee fighting & African Fighting...its just lost or hidden.

 

You want serious combat train South East Asian Martial arts =

Pencak Silat, Kuntau, and if you can find it go for solid Xing Yi, Bagua, Tai ji , or Baiji & Wing Chun

 

 

You want the goods dig for what the old timers did in the streets. Not he Fantasy Kung Fu Crouching tiger hidden banana stuff.

 

One teacher told me the best fighting is what you see in prison. So if your art has a "gutter" approach its GOLD and you should train it if you interest are of course to know how to really fight or true survival.

 

 

Peace

 

Santiago

[Spectrum]

Grasping Sparrows Tail in contemporary application is fig 4 and arm bars, even arm dragging under the armpit, same as rollback motions. You'll always be holding the ball in various arts. Some arts trace the outline of the circle, others bounce through inner angles like drum rhythms around the rim. There is an old rule that has been passed along. Don't fight someone on their terms.

 

Grappling is a good way to develop your base (cog sensitivity) rooting (the abilty to actively control your own ground) and general posture. Taiji as an art is defensive, so it lacks in offensive takedown techniques, but does develop base and posture, without pushhands practice it is harder to practice active rooting, it becomes a kind of gung where you practice screwing your legs into the ground and keeping your feet flat.

 

Learn to punch and kick as well as redirect and throw. The human form is marvelous and varied. When we're young lets train like young men, when we're old we'll train like old men. Practice getting your lead jab to snap at the end of extension, just like you should reach slowly through each posture in Taijiquan.

Edited June 5, 2008 by Spectrum

[Taomeow]

Rain,

 

sorry about your falling off your chair -- hope it was painless -- and hugs back!

 

Who said anything about hurting anyone? I was taught to treat your opponent gentle pushes and yielding like you would a 2 year old no matter how big they were or how much they wanted to hurt you. I've done push-hands for years and it really doesn't help with anything related to self-defense. I know we have all seen the youtube videos of the old guy using a gentle push to send an opponent flying 50 feet away but thats whats called LARP'ing.

 

(I am begging to get flamed, huh?)

Not at all, you're begging to be introduced to a real teacher.

 

Now you didn't want any stories about "worshipped" teachers, well how else can someone with a few years of taiji relate the combat efficiency of 40 years of taiji?.. I can't do what I've seen my teacher do, but it doesn't mean I made him up, nor that he "fakes" whatever I've seen... I've seen high-level non-cooperating warriors of other styles come to our class to "prove" hands-on exactly what you're trying to prove verbally. They failed. I've seen it, and I'm not making it up.

 

The thing is, taiji is not immediately efficient in combat, it's not a cup of instant coffee, is all. It is not a fast food treat. It is not martially efficient after ten self-defense lessons. It's like something organic that takes its time to grow... like an oak tree which you can uproot with utmost ease when it's five years old, and which you can't uproot with anything short of a bomb when it's 50 years old, and not even with that if it's 500 years old. There's things in this world that take time to grow -- children, some art forms -- e.g., unlike poetry, journalism, or bestsellers that last a season or two, all the great classical novels in history, the ones that survive for decades or even centuries, were written by people over 50 -- so someone who wants to create a masterpiece in this genre has to allow quite a lot of time to let the art mature.

 

Likewise, the virtue of taiji is not that it's a quick-fix type of "martialization" of one's skill; the virtue of taiji is "heng," the ability to grow stronger rather than weaker with time. There's phenomena like that in the world; taiji is one of them, whereas neither jogging, skiing, weightlifting, boxing, football, nor hard MA are in this category.

 

We are generally used to things being at their peak efficiency early on, there's an "expiration date" on everything, we don't believe in heng. Vis a vis taiji, it's a mistake. When you see all those videos where a frail old man sends young studs flying, you are convinced they are bogus -- but consider another possibility: that same frail old man couldn't do this when he was a young stud, his taiji wasn't mature enough then... hard to believe, but do find a real teacher and you won't have to take anyone's word for it, you'll know...

[Trunk]

I've done push-hands for years and it really doesn't help with anything related to self-defense.

My opinion is that high level internals rule. ... but there's a whole lot of people who do internal style who never get to a level where it's useful in combat, but is still an enjoyable, interesting, and probably-healthy art. I'm interested in that latter stuff; I don't give a shit about fighting.

 

 

btw, I've found push-hands to be quite applicable inter-personally. Socially applicable.

[MatthewQi]

I don't know Darin. I learned all this stuff ass backwords I am taking TaiChi now with a live teacher. I learned NeiGong (or inner alchemy) first (yes, from books and tapes). And fortunately was blessed by divine grace to awaken (but it ain't everything, it goes on and on, but I don't really care about that, but sometimes I do, lol).

 

It is interesting to see my taichi teacher get confused when he feels the power. Same look that Winn had when I focused on his crown at a retreat when he brought up that he did that to a teacher he studied with. They are just like whoa, totally distracted by it, they noticed it, and I see that, but they have no idea where it is coming from.

 

So anyway, my point is that with inner skill there is perhaps no reason for outer martial arts. The best fight is the one that never had to occur becuase of our own inner state or flowing in the Way. High level Ninja's (like Glenn Morris) talk about this. When flowing in the Way, one has no attachment, there is no reason for self defense, it is handled by a greater power and the outcome or even the situation you are in has no meaning of signifigance to you. We all transform, what part of ourselves is clinging to form? What is beyond that? What is really running the show? who/what are we?

 

On the other hand, some people can use their mind power to influence events and situations. To me this is also inner skill and very real, however, it must be done without attachement and in being one with the Way. Who is pulling the strings? What is the razor's edge? Why are there clouds in the sky today and why did I think of sunshine and now it is getting sunny?

 

One of the purpose of MAs (in modern times) from my perspective is to eventually go deeper within, but we all need a place to start and the MA's are great for a lot of people for that. Truly, what is to be defended? that is why there is more to it than that. Gotta dump the atttachments (easier said than done cause that means everything, your particular taste for things, your family, etc. = not easy, and definitely not the way most of us are trained to be)

 

So why am I learning TaiChi?, lol. I like to experiement with different techniques. It is said to be a way of internal power so I am checking it out. So far, I am finding this is true and I am more able to surrender into the Way. However, this feeling is perhaps more chi vs. shen based, I don't know, but it is all good, that is for sure. What I mean is that a certain aspect of energy is able to be directed willfully and a certain aspect of our being is not, or better, is best to be surrendered to or ask and let it go. If one can master surrender, then energy practices are not necessary. But for the rest of us, we need to do it to get ourselves "there".

 

Best to you! I have felt your sincerety and I know that you will find what you need, no doubt! That is part of the Way and a very important factor to finding what you are seeking. Bizzarely, so is letting go of everything that you so intensely seek and just being who you are. Sometimes we (all of us, myself included) have to call it quits and let things go the way they go

 

Don't forget to love and accept who YOU are my friend!

 

Best,

 

MatthewQi

[Yoda]

Darin,

 

You've danced your way around bullets Matrix style. I'm sure you could tap into that again.

 

Yoda

[rain]

I don't know Darin. I learned all this stuff ass backwords I am taking TaiChi now with a live teacher. I learned NeiGong (or inner alchemy) first (yes, from books and tapes). And fortunately was blessed by divine grace to awaken (but it ain't everything, it goes on and on, but I don't really care about that, but sometimes I do, lol).

 

It is interesting to see my taichi teacher get confused when he feels the power. Same look that Winn had when I focused on his crown at a retreat when he brought up that he did that to a teacher he studied with. They are just like whoa, totally distracted by it, they noticed it, and I see that, but they have no idea where it is coming from.

 

When flowing in the Way, one has no attachment, there is no reason for self defense, it is handled by a greater power and the outcome or even the situation you are in has no meaning of signifigance to you. We all transform, what part of ourselves is clinging to form? What is beyond that? What is really running the show? who/what are we?

 

Bizzarely, so is letting go of everything that you so intensely seek and just being who you are. Sometimes we (all of us, myself included) have to call it quits and let things go the way they go smile.gif

 

--------------------------

best post ever

i am very gratful to be here now

thanks

Edited June 5, 2008 by rain

[rain]

Edited June 5, 2008 by rain

[Jedi777]

From Grandmaster Wong

 

 

 

I am looking for a master who really knows how to use Tai Chi for self-defence. Here are some of their websites. How can I know whether or not those masters know how to use Tai Chi for self defence?

Ming, Malaysia

 

 

Answer 8

As far as I know, the Tai Chi masters and schools you mentioned do not normally teach Tai Chi Chuan for combat. Indeed very, very few schools in Malaysia or anywhere else in the world today, including in China, teach Tai Chi Chuan as an internal martial art. Most of them teach it as a form of recreation.

 

Some Tai Chi schools, especially in the West, teach combat application. But unfortunately they do not use Tai Chi Chuan skills or techniques for their combat application; they use other martial techniques like Boxing and Kick-Boxing.

 

There are a few ways to know whether a Tai Chi Chaun teacher (or a teacher of any kungfu style) can use Tai Chi Chuan (or any kungfu style) for combat. The most obvious, of course, is to see him engaged in combat, such as actual fighting or friendly sparring.

 

One should note, however, that the issue is not whether he will win, but whether he can use Tai Chi Chuan for combat. In other words, even when he wins but if he uses Kick-Boxing in his fight, then it does not show he can use Tai Chi Chuan for combat. On the other hand, even when he loses but if he uses Tai Chi Chuan in his fight, it shows he knows Tai Chi Chuan combat application.

 

An indirect way is to see whether his students can use Tai Chi Chuan for fighting. While it is true that it can be possible, though unlikely, that his students can use Tai Chi Chuan for combat but he cannot, it may be a better option, because it is you, the student, who want to be combat efficient in Tai Chi Chuan. Today it is not uncommon that while the teacher is a good fighter, his students do not know how to fight.

 

Asking a teacher to show you whether he can fight, is both impolite and risky. He may hurt you to teach you a lesson. But politely asking whether his students can demonstrate some combat applications may be permissible. Nevertheless, there are some hitches. Someone may give a good demonstration of combat application but still be unable to fight in a real situation. On the other hand, if a teacher refuses to show, it does not mean he can't. In my young days, when people asked me whether kungfu could be used for fighting, I usually asked them to attack me to find out -- not necesarily in an unfriendly manner. Now I usually don't bother.

 

There are, happily, more civilized ways to find out, but you yourself need to be combat efficient in kungfu to do so. If you have been trained to use Tai Chi Chuan or any other styles of kungfu for combat, you would know whether another person can also do so by watching his performance of some Tai Chi Chuan or other kungfu patterns. It is like if you know how to play football or a musical instrument, you would know whether other persons can also play football or a musical instrument by watching how they handle a football or a musical instrument.

 

For example, it is obvious to the initiated, though it may not be clear to you, him and his students, that the Tai Chi teacher in the video you showed me, does not know how to use Tai Chi Chuan for self-defence. If a Karate or a Taekwondo black-belt were to attack him, he would be beaten badly.

 

Notice that in the Pushing Hands demonstration his stance is exposed throughout and his partner's hands are on his body, which means an opponent would easily kick his groin.or strike his chest in real combat. Had they been practicing combnt application, they would have learnt the hard way from direct experience that such weaknesses would cause them many hits.

 

Notice also the way the teacher pushes his students. His back foot is lifted, causing him to be uprooted, and he pushes like splashing water upward in a sea. The students are pushed back not by his force but by the students jumping back themselves.

[Taiji Bum]

Darin,

 

You've danced your way around bullets Matrix style. I'm sure you could tap into that again.

 

Yoda

I've done some cool stuff but it's very inconsistent. One time I am in the zone and I know what someone is going to do before they do it and I can give them a gentle push and they go flying, but mostly I go flying. I've had the time-slowing thing too but that is soooooo rare..... maybe three times in the 19 years I've done taijiquan. I am just afraid of becoming a LARP'er. My main goal is Taoist immortality and ascension but my second greatest goal in life is to be a taijiquan master.

[Andrei]

I've done some cool stuff but it's very inconsistent. One time I am in the zone and I know what someone is going to do before they do it and I can give them a gentle push and they go flying, but mostly I go flying. I've had the time-slowing thing too but that is soooooo rare..... maybe three times in the 19 years I've done taijiquan. I am just afraid of becoming a LARP'er. My main goal is Taoist immortality and ascension but my second greatest goal in life is to be a taijiquan master.

 

 

 

Darin

 

I have great respect for what you have achieved.

I am (was) a fanatic of Taijiquan combat skills. I have done Judo in my teens and Karate Kyokushin and I have to tell you there is no match for Taijiquan. I used Taijiquan in Sanshou competition and I won due to my Taijiquan practice. I have not lift a pound of weight and not run a yard, but my secret trainining (which i stolen from my instructor) is that two months before competition I trained at home 1 hour / day in Zhan Zhuang. In my club I have no match except my instructor which is way stronger than me (in China he trained two hours a day in Zhan Zhuang one hour in the morning and one hour in the evening) and a guy who is 50 lbs over my weight (I am 170 lbs 6ft1 which is not an advantage in grappling). The secret of Taijiquan is the rooting(strength) combined with flexibility (flow). That's it. Nothing else. You have the 13 forms (8 forms and 5 directions). 4 pounds deflect one tone.

 

This is Shuai Jiao the chinese version of Judo. There is no way a Taiji master would loose a fight in front of a wrestler

 

 

 

This is the best ever Judo master:

 

http://youtube.com/watch?v=CUne9Xg55og

 

This is a fight between a disciple of Chen Man Ching and a famous shuai jiao champion in Hong Kong in the years '60-'70

 

http://youtube.com/watch?v=gVBnMIjQ-Xc

 

Actually in modern Shuai Jiao they adopted the same 8 hand forms and 5 directions from Taijiquan because of their efficacity

 

Various examples how to use Taijiquan in sport combat (no cooperation in these clips)

 

 

http://youtube.com/watch?v=2HbTdQKZ52k

 

 

http://youtube.com/watch?v=H-BN5cKNAX0

 

 

 

The complete formula in Taijiquan training is

1/5 Standing

1/5 8 forms 5 directions and fighting applications

1/5 Taolu - solo study

1/5 Tuishou - pushing hands - dual study

1/5 San shou - free fighting

Edited June 6, 2008 by steam

[Sahaj Nath]

steam,

 

fun videos, but not one of them portrayed a real fight. i didn't see one real strike. not one real kick. no knees. no elbows. and no distance between the opponents. their limbs are touching throughout the matches.

 

that's not real combat, in my opinion.

 

a ton of videos, but no one fight scenario.

Edited June 6, 2008 by Hundun

[Taiji Bum]

The secret of Taijiquan is the rooting(strength) combined with flexibility (flow). That's it. Nothing else. You have the 13 forms (8 forms and 5 directions). 4 pounds deflect one tone.

Amen brother, its all about the basics. I guess I am doing judo to test myself and hopefully push myself to the next level. Those were some great videos. I liked the push-hands stuff. I was supprised to see all the negative comments but personally I think you have to train hard in order to be soft and..... thanks for the compliment.

[Andrei]

steam,

 

fun videos, but not one of them portrayed a real fight. i didn't see one real strike. not one real kick. no knees. no elbows. and no distance between the opponents. their limbs are touching throughout the matches.

 

that's not real combat, in my opinion.

 

a ton of videos, but no one fight scenario.

 

you even got a video that claims to demonstrate tactics against a TKD and BJJ fighter, but somehow the guy managed not to demonstrate any proficiency in those skills.

 

Hundun

 

you are right, there is no real fight in those videos.

It's just about Judo/wrestling in general speaking 'grappling' and how to use Taijiquan.

The guy who tried BJJ technics didn't succeed because the other guy every time broke his bones alignement/ body structure/composure from the beginning

 

That is why the standing practice is very important, because you know/feel how you should be, while you know/feel how your adversary should not be.

 

This can be done only at the contact when the two oponents touch each other.

 

You can claim that any boxer can knock out a grappler. Yes its true but only if the grappler does not know how to defend. The best tool against a boxer is grappling because at some point the boxer will touch the grappler - you can see that in any box match when the two fighters hug each other.

 

You know there is a saying in Thai Boxing: "Kicks beat fists, elbows beat kicks and knees beat elbows"

I must add the Taijiquan saying: "Shoulder/Hip strike beats Elbow/Knee strike (Kao beats Zhou)"

 

In Taijiquan there are the 8 forces: Peng, Lu, Ji, An, Cai, Lieh, Zhou, Kao and each one beats another. The mastery is to use the one who beats the adversary's force. When you change the force this is the flow. When you apply the force this is the strength.

 

And by the way I'm a great fan of MMA

[Spectrum]

In Taijiquan there are the 8 forces: Peng, Lu, Ji, An, Cai, Lieh, Zhou, Kao and each one beats another.

 

They are Cyclic Couplets

[Andrei]

The complete formula in Taijiquan training is

1/5 Standing

1/5 8 forms 5 directions and fighting applications

1/5 Taolu - solo study

1/5 Tuishou - pushing hands - dual study

1/5 San shou - free fighting

 

 

I forgot to add to the Taijiquan complete formula:

1/7 Qigong/Neigong

1/7 Emptiness meditation

 

This is very interesting subject and I wanted to share some thoughts from my personal experience. I wanted to learn martial arts maybe because I am a fearful person. I learned a lot of techniques from different styles but when it was to use them I saw that my body was too weak or couldn't react or had a response way to exaggerated. I found that one of the most important thing in MA is self control. I trained myself and ultimately I could control all my body (at a certain level) except one thing, I couldn't control my fear. So I found that ultimately everything comes to fear control or as they say "Flight or fight response". Actually FEAR is a very healthy mechanism, it keeps one ALIVE and INTEGER. It is inside us maybe from the very beginning, from the time we were protozoa unicellular beings. Fear is the mechanism that tells one there is something unknown in one's field of perception. FEAR increases one's AWARENESS. A sleeping person have no fear, and one cannot sleep if is afraid. I am talking here about CONSCIOUSNESS and UNCONSCIOUSNESS. This is maybe way deeper than the reptilian brain. The brain is just a machine - like a computer - and the mind is like the software. There are a lot of recent theories how the brain works. There is a theory in control of automatic systems that uses the NEURAL NETWORKS. These neural networks use a special kind of logic which is called FUZZY LOGIC. What is interesting is that you build a mathematical model, a software program, you train it and it can give the results for what you have trained it. The more you train it the more precise and faster are the results it gives. The same way works the brain, it uses the fuzzy logic inside its neural network and gives you the fastest way possible the most precise response. So, coming back to FEAR, it is the response of the mind that something wrong, unknown and dangerous is happening inside your field pf perception. Which makes one AWARE of the danger. The more AWARENESS of the situation the more one may control it. one MAY but doesn't mean that one CAN. This is the difference between the people who train only their brains by visualization/imagination techniques and people who train MIND and BODY for REAL situations. This is called EXPERIENCE but one don't need too much experience if one know how to shunt the mechanism of fear inside the mind and body. The mechanism of fear has two components: one is the mind - software program - which gives one the solution and send an electrical signal to the body to execute, the other is the mechanical - electrochemical processes - which is the hormonal "Flight or fight" response. The hormonal response is the ADRENALINE release which gives one faster heart beats, insensitivity to pain, faster reactions. All of these are useful in life threatening situations. Benny Urquidez said that in combat sports there is no fear for loosing life but there is allways fear of PAIN. Paradoxically during a fight one don't feel pain at all because of the ADRENALINE release. one feel FEAR when the ADRELANINE is released in the blood stream. If you feel small amounts of FEAR you became aware of the situation and decide that you control it and you stay and FIGHT. If you have too much adrenaline release then you feel too much fear, there is a trigger limit like a switch, your body tells to your mind is too much for him to bare so you should FLY. This is the PANIC button, the best thing to do is to run but there are some people who paralizes themselves in case of panic because their brain doesn't find any solution for the situation. If one don't feel fear at all, this is a pathological disease they are in a constant danger of breaking their bones falling from heights or crossing the street. They are never aware of the danger arround them. After the danger passes the adrenaline goes away everything goes to normal and the body and mind record the situation as a lesson for future similar events. But there is a little problem, along with the adrenaline release one release some amount of CORTISOL. Adrenaline action on short term but CORTISOL stays for longterm. Every time one encounter a fearfull situation one increase the cortisol levels which stack up until reached the limit where one feel STRESSED. The only thing that counteract the cortisol is SEROTONINE. Serotonine works like a damper, softens the chemical reactions, actually it is called the relaxation hormone. Serotonine is secreted in the digestive tract after one eats. There are others ways to counteract cortisol such as DOPAMINE - the pleasure hormone or OXYTOCIN - the orgasmic/love hormone. In these cases the stressed person need a good f_ck. But this is another discution for another topic. In conclusion everything comes to training and balance or what I call fine tunning. Everything depend on how the body works, how much chemical reactions it produces and how the mind control these processes.

 

Ok, this is the theory and now here comes my personal experience with Taijiquan.

 

- If one train in weightlifting one increase the strength (testosteron levels) but also increases the cortisol levels. I think testosteron is Yang Fire of Kidneys and cortisol and adrenaline is Yin Fire of Kidneys. Nitric oxide also is Yang Fire. The problem with weight lifting is that you train not only the body to produce chemicals but you train the mind to react the way you train. This is why the weight training should be specific training as seen in the Shuai Jiao videos. This is external traditonal training and I am pleased to see that more and more is used in MMA. In my opinion the only strength you need to use is your bodyweight. But not in a dynamic way because the dynamics of strength training is not the same as dynamic of a fight. A real fight is only 3 to 30 seconds. All is about reaction and flight or fight response.

 

- The best way to train the strength is maintaining static postures - Standing Qigong. In army these are called STRESS positions. Because at the beginning you feel incofortable, you feel pain, and you acumulate STRESS (cortisol). But in time (several months) of daily training your body slowly react and changes the chemical balance. The body begins to like it (produces dopamine), relaxes (produces serotonine), decrease the stress level (reduces cortisol) and increases the speed reaction and pain tolerance (adrenaline effect). What I observed is that practicing Zhan Zhuang the adrenals squeeze due to abdominal breathing and slowly empty them in the blood stream so that you allways have some adrenaline in the skin or in the neural pathways and terminals (which I call closing the acupuncture points at external injuries) but in the same time you have smaller PANIC response which means that during an fearfull event you never reach the threshold of FLIGHT, you maintain your cold blood - cool mind. The abdominal breathing stimulates the serotonine production in Dantian, which I think corresponds to Earth element in taoist alchemy. Nitric oxid has a very short life of only several seconds inside the tissues, because it is an unstable gas he reacts quickly with the substances arround - which I think is the Fire element. This element is activated by the reverse breathing and the balance of oxygen/CO2 in the blood stream. In my experience the normal breathing (buddhist way) decrease the fire, while the reverse breathing (taoist way) increase it. Does not matter the breathing patern (budhist or taoist way), what matter is the fire should be kept just as required to cook the internal cauldron (the Dantian) not too much, not too little. This is standing qigong which normally strenghten your legs and your upward posture. It gives the rooting or the body awareness. If you need to increase the strength of your arms or your chest the same priciples may apply. Hand standing near a wall, or fist standing with body reclined in lateral are basic exercises from Shaolin. Hai Deng is the most famous monk who could stand on one finger (you can see him on youtube). My teacher can stand on four fingers with the hands in sword fingers mudra for 30 seconds. His chinese teacher can stand in only two fingers, the pointing fingers of each hand. These skills shows how much stress their body can bear and how much training they put into their mind and body.

 

- The best way to train the brain to react is to learn the martial forms (ALL Taijiquan forms are martial) in a slow manner. The slower the better, the slower you move the more AWARENESS for what you do and what you feel you have. The more you train the neural network, the better will respond in critic situations. This is the role of individual forms and linked forms in a taolu. The traditional taolu-s are the best because they are longer to perform and require more concentration from your mind to be AWARE. Traditional 108 form in Yang style or Yi Lu in Chen style can take 30 minutes to perform in a very slow manner.

 

- Then you need to have the same training with a moving alive target - a real person. Here comes the Tuishou exercises. In pushing hands the same principles apply, the slower the movement the more awareness, you feel the forces but you cant use them. So you need also to use strength on the weaknesses of the adversary. This is called Fa Jing. The problem here is that all the masters uses the Fa Jing only on their pupils. But this is not always true or not quite accurate. The real masters are they who had real fights in their youths or adulthood, who were beaten and who tasted the pain and the dust. They who know that fight is about taking by SURPRISE, FAST and LETHAL. Which ultimately leads to "Flight or fight response". In our days either you live in a high criminality rate neighbourhood, or you go to combat competitions. Otherways one cannot test their limits. All the great masters in the past followed the same path. Pain and suffering, trial and error.

 

- Here comes in the scene Qigong training. If you fight or you are training hard, allways there are injuries and accidents. In my experience the Qigong I practised healed my injuries a lot faster than average person. Qigong should be part of all martial arts due to its healing qualities.

 

- Ultimately meditation gives you the control and power over your mind and what lies beyond. I just began to meditate so I have no much experience, and for me it took a long time to be convinced I need to do it. Thanks to this forum and its great Taoist bums. What I know for sure is that meditation increases the field perception, if nothing else it clears the mind, it is like defragmenting the information storage, clears the good healthy info of viruses and trojans in my head computer.

Edited June 9, 2008 by steam

[orb]

From what I have read so far about the internal martial arts, all of them were "invented" after a certain individual already had a very high level in EXTERNAL martial arts. Masters like Zhang Sanfeng, Morihei Ueshiba etc. used to get into real bear knuckle fights for years and years before they would come to an understanding of certain principles and rules that would allow them to relax and use the minimum amount of energy and completely control a confrontation and encrypt all that into a system like Taiji, Aikido, Bagua and so on. So Taiji seem to have been like a post PHD level almost. In our days however, somehow we got to skip the primary school, highschool, college, masters, phd of the external martial arts and jump straight to a very high level of mastership in internal matters, hence this kind of books in our society:

CLICK HERE

 

or

 

ANOTHER ONE

 

Anyway, in my opinion the modern Taiji is very effective in combat when you are 85 years old and up and I'm already planning to get into it when I'll be in my 80s and my kids are going to kindly send me to live in a nice retirement community where I'll have to survive and defend myself against the bloody pudding thieves.

 

here's a little demonstration Taiji in combat

 

also using traditional weapons Traditional Weapons

Edited June 7, 2008 by orb

[IanB]

[Wayfarer64]

Who said anything about hurting anyone? I was taught to treat your opponent gentle pushes and yielding like you would a 2 year old no matter how big they were or how much they wanted to hurt you. I've done push-hands for years and it really doesn't help with anything related to self-defense. I know we have all seen the youtube videos of the old guy using a gentle push to send an opponent flying 50 feet away but thats whats called LARP'ing.

 

(I am begging to get flamed, huh?)

 

My early training was for self defense. That was what I wanted... Judo when I was 9-10, wrestling in high school, I also started Hatha Yoga in high-school and have kept that going... Hung Ga when I was in my 20-30's, a home style dis-arming technique I found in Taipei, I had a basic street-fighter's knowledge throughout my trainings...That I eventually learned to curb the influences of... as they left no room to give quarter or leave off before things were "settled"...

 

The "inner" development that allowed me to see non-violence as the better way is still developing! I can use just enough force to dissuade and discourage without actually harming anyone...

 

But I felt that TaijiTuan wasn't a good start for me - now I look forward to learning it! as a health benefit more than a martial practice, but I do realize that with training it too can be most affective as a fighting style.

Edited June 7, 2008 by Wayfarer64