Five Elements - Kunlun / Tai chi

[JazZen]

Could some correct the following that Max stated as he taught us the postures, the below dosent go with the 5 postures as you are going from one to next.

 

Wood penetrates the earth

Earth blocks water

Water extinguishes fire

Fire destroys metal

Metal penetrates wood

Full details on http://mykunlun.com/blogs/jazz/archive/200...lements.aspx#23

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0jNaLW7qzE

 

t0jNaLW7qzE

 

Corrected by Chris:

 

Wood (liver) is consumed by fire

Fire (heart) creates ash (earth)

Earth (spleen) creates metal

Metal (lungs) is tonified by

Water (kidneys).

Edited June 18, 2008 by JazZen

[Cameron]

The order of the 5 element standing Max teaches is the same as what is called the creation cycle in Taoist theory I beleive. So it's not destroying cycle but a cycle of creation.

 

Not sure about the language used but from what I remember from other sources.

 

1st posture wood/fire burns(is created) from wood so

 

2nd posture fire/fire creates earth

 

3rd posture earth/earth creates metal

 

4th posture metal/metal creates water

 

5th posture water.

 

And if you continued the cycle from there, water creates wood. But he starts from the wood element/posture so it ends with water.

 

Cam

 

ps. Hi Jazz, I just read your website and it looks like your mixing up the creation and destruction cycle.

In any case, my understanding is the 1st posture is wood(liver). 2nd is fire(heart). 3rd is earth(spleen). 4th is metal(lungs) and 5th is water(kidneys).

 

But if I somehow got those wrong someone let me know! We all learned it at the same place.

[Sahaj Nath]

...

Edited June 17, 2008 by Hundun

[Lighttime]

Could some correct the following that Max stated as he taught us the postures, the below dosent go with the 5 postures as you are going from one to next.

 

Wood penetrates the earth

 

Earth blocks water

 

Water extinguishes fire

 

Fire destroys metal

 

Metal penetrates wood

 

Full details on http://mykunlun.com/blogs/jazz/archive/200...lements.aspx#23

 

Video on You tube:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0Mg5wiiBdY&hl=en

Creation cycle...Earth creates Metal (by compression)

Metal creates Water (by condensation)

Water creates Wood (by nourishment)

Wood creates Fire (by combustion)

Fire creates Earth (by ash)

 

Destruction cycle...

Metal (Splitting Power fist) destroys Wood (Crushing Power fist)..by "splitting"

Wood (Crushing Power fist)--> think of a tree bursting up through the ground or an arrow penetrating a target destroys Earth (Crossing power fist) by "absorbing" nutrients from soil

Earth (Crossing Power fist) destroys Water (Drilling Power fist) by "draining" all of the water into the ground or "blocking the water like a dam"

Water (Drilling Power fist) destroys Fire (Pounding Power fist)(--> think "cannon fire") by "extinguishing"

Fire (Pounding Power fist)(--> think "Cannon Fire") destroys Metal (Splitting Power fist) by "melting"

 

Think of each element as a different "Pressure-Velocity"...like a finely tuned 5-speed transmission.

 

How to practice:

 

When practicing a series of techniques , practice the "Destructive" characteristics,

in the "Creative" cycle sequence.

 

Splitting Power (velocity)"Metal"

Drilling Power (velocity)"Water"

Crushing Power (velocity)"Wood"

Pounding Power (velocity)"Fire"

Crossing Power (velocity)"Earth"

 

Click on the upper left hand quarter for links, start with "Splitting"

http://www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/index.html

 

http://www.littlenineheaven.com/gallery/2002/index.html

Edited June 17, 2008 by Lighttime

[Sahaj Nath]

your written description of the movements is different from what you perform in the video.

 

AH! got it!

 

so you were matching up the postures with the destruction cycle rather than the creation cycle, and you gave the wrong attributes to all except the first one in the written description.

 

the video seem right though. the creation cycle starting with wood.

 

 

 

hmm. why does it start with wood, i wonder. the five element systems with which i'm most familiar start with either metal or water, unless there's a specific imbalance you're trying to correct.

Edited June 17, 2008 by Hundun

[Mantra68]

Hey Jazz,

Here is how it goes:

Wood (liver) is consumed by fire

Fire (heart) creates ash (earth)

Earth (spleen) creates metal

Metal (lungs) is tonified by

Water (kidneys).

 

This cycle balances and energizes the organs.

 

The postures can be held from 7 minutes up to two hours (for brave souls) or one can flow through them in a constantly moving manner.

 

Holding the postures until you have a pool of sweat beneath you is most beneficial.

 

Also, it is good to start and end with I-Jong (first posture).

 

Good luck.

[JazZen]

Thanks Chris!!

 

Could you please shed some light on Destruction vs Creative cycle. Why would one do destruction ?

[Yoda]

Chris,

 

Is it okay to go lower with the stance?

 

Yoda

[Guest winpro07]

max said: lower the better.

 

training lower make it easier faster

 

max said: lower the better.

 

training lower makes it easier faster

[Junbao]

You mean like in a lower horse stance?

Good for the legs and rooting too.

[Cameron]

max said: lower the better.

 

training lower make it easier faster

 

max said: lower the better.

 

training lower makes it easier faster

 

 

I might be remembering incorrectly but I also remember him saying the old masters wouldn't go low, more like the way he teaches I Jong, so they could practice into old age without strain? But then at another workshop I remember him saying that old masters did go very low?

 

Do your practice 5E in more of a deeper, horse riding stance Winpro?

[Yoda]

thanks! I did hear Max say that in the old days that people did the 5E very low, but I didn't know if that applied to our modern, easy living ways.

[emily]

i did a five elements form in a tai chi class but this is different. as ive started practising kunlun im interested to learn this. so is the video the correct order and labelled incorrectly? im confused!

[Aetherous]

Max said at the NJ workshop that the upcoming book should have all of the correct details about the practice.

[Junbao]

Yeah, it looks like the video is in the correct order. It looks like the postures are labeled ok, but the descriptions of the cycle are off. So he starts with Wood, then even though it says "Wood penetrates Earth", he goes into the fire posture, which is then labeled correctly as "Fire Element: heart, small intestine"....and so on....

 

Scotty, is there a new book coming out? Revised of the old? Or new altogether?

I just ordered from lulu and that would be poo poo to have a new revision come out right after I order....

Edited June 18, 2008 by Junbao

[Yoda]

Junbao,

 

There's no telling when the new book will actually come out. I'd be inclined just to buy the old for the moment.

 

Yoda

[Junbao]

I bought it Friday. Just waiting for them to print and ship!

[JazZen]

Video is correct order.

 

Text - I have corrected on top after Chris provided.

 

I will fix the video text shorly and upload it.

 

 

I will have Chris tell us about Destructive vs Creative cycle. From what I understand what we were taught is the creative cycle.

[emily]

cool thanks for taking the time to put this up

[Junbao]

From what I learned from traditional Chinese Medicine, the destructive cycle can be used to put an element in check that is in excess. Like for example if you had excess fire, in the destructive cycle water extinguishes fire, and so you could emphasis a water practice to cool the fire.

From my understanding the creative cycle is balancing and nourishing, and the destructive is more for specific issues.

Please someone correct me if I am wrong.

 

Chris, are these postures effective to practice individually, or for longer periods to work on a specific organ or element? Like if you had excess heat, and stomach issues, could you practice the water and earth longer, or by themselves, to help create balance?

 

Thanks!

[nils]

Thanks Chris!!

 

Could you please shed some light on Destruction vs Creative cycle. Why would one do destruction ?

 

Hi Jazz

 

Ill answer you as a Shiatsu Practitioner based on the Kyo/Jitsu Theory (or over/underfunction) from an Element

Destruction happens. Energy needs to be moved, tonified or sedated. For ex. your fire is burning away (red face, problems in breathing, high blood preassure,) water must be activated to "extinguish" the excess of fire. Your wood cant express itself (ex. bad humor, very loud talking, hyper) metall might be to strong (control, to many boundaries) wont let wood grow free. Must activate fire to melt metall.

just to give you a little idea how it works, it sound difficult, jut think of an element like water in all its forms and compare to the different stages of emotions or mental states

ex.

calm and placid like a clear spring = you are in balance

running wild like the rapids = your emotions might out of control (fear/fright)

dirty and turbid = need calmness to clear up your thoughts