The "Get a Job, Have a Wife, Make a Child , Get a Life" Thread

[宁]

Oh Mal, there's this advice that i heard from one of my teachers:

in society behave like a Confucian,

in practice act like a Daoist...

 

it's the confucian part of our training.

usually it's not something we assume on our own accord, it's more like we're a bit forced into it by life, society.

this is a thread that tries to give a spiritual meaning to this work, of making a family and have a social life...

it's a great balancing factor. the main reason married couples live longer and happier.

 

L1

[hagar]

Oh Mal, there's this advice that i heard from one of my teachers:

in society behave like a Confucian,

in practice act like a Daoist...

 

it's the confucian part of our training.

usually it's not something we assume on our own accord, it's more like we're a bit forced into it by life, society.

this is a thread that tries to give a spiritual meaning to this work, of making a family and have a social life...

it's a great balancing factor. the main reason married couples live longer and happier.

 

L1

 

In the Book of Job it says; "To be free, you have to stand firm".

 

I for one, kicked and screamed my way into realizing that being in society, having a family and a job is exactly what was needed for me to finally give up.

For Me, it was really terrible.

 

We exist so to infuse this matter with spirit.

 

h

[宁]

In the Book of Job it says; "To be free, you have to stand firm".

 

I for one, kicked and screamed my way into realizing that being in society, having a family and a job is exactly what was needed for me to finally give up.

For Me, it was really terrible.

 

We exist so to infuse this matter with spirit.

 

h

 

the alternative is even more terrible.

thinking of it one movie comes to my mind.

really good movie.

 

 

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name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="

type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

 

i'm reffering to the 'no strings attached' policy presented in the movie

[hagar]

the alternative is even more terrible.

thinking of it one movie comes to my mind.

really good movie.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="

name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="

type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

 

i'm reffering to the 'no strings attached' policy presented in the movie

 

Wierd. My girlfriend knows the actor that plays the main character. Its Norwegian, so I'd guess this proves my point. Did you pick it intentionally?

 

h

[Smile]

One of my friends is going through a separation now, and it's a major FUBAR. To me, if you want to be with a girl, be with her. If you don't, don't. You don't need a license from the local idiots (read: government) so they can give you permission to use it for some limited benefits.

Read this: http://www.henrymakow.com/why_young_men_ar...oiding_mar.html

The article references some websites that you may want to visit... like:

http://www.theghostnation.com/forums/

http://www.nomarriage.com/

http://mgtow.net/ipbforum/index.php?

http://eternalbachelor.blogspot.com/

http://eternalbachelor.wordpress.com/

 

But don't misunderstand me... I LOVE women. I just don't want anything to do with babies, or marriage licenses.

[Enishi]

Thanks for posting those links Smile. I've read a number of MGTOW websites over the years. Sometimes they do get really extreme, but they make some SERIOUSLY good points.

 

Marriage is extremely wacky in the anglosphere. A wife can divorce a man just because she feels bored, get the kids and half of his life earnings, even make false and unprovable claims that he abused the children out of pure spite, and the courts will go along with her. And women are supposed to be the oppressed ones???!!!! What a bunch of cultural marxist brainwashed bullshit!

 

Seriously, only get married if it's with a really good women that both you (and her family) now is trustworthy. Or just don't get married at all.

Edited October 20, 2009 by Enishi

[JustARandomPanda]

Damn, some of those websites really let their passive-aggressive anger against woman show don't they? Still..if men are happy hanging part of their identity on their grievances with women then it's their business I suppose.

[Enishi]

I agree, many of them are very passive aggressive and angry. They also let past bad experiences define their reality. However, just like women who have been married to abusive men, or had bad boyfriends and are now negative and bitter, there are legitimate reasons for their grievances.

[King Kabalabhati]

"Life is yoga", said one elder yogi I know.

 

To me this means that everyday situations can be very cultivating. Children can show us most of our own faults in plain and simple forms, all the selfishness, short-sightedness, impatience, grasping onto things, resisting growth and changes, prejudice, doubtfulness, aggression, soaking up bad influence... All of that shit is very plain to see in children because they don't know how (or why) to camouflage it. So they are teachers in that respect. Then they also put you in a situation where maintaining your health and energy levels is mandatory since you won't stay sane otherwise.

 

I know it can batter your ego to "lose" some of your life, meaning that you're forced to give up some ambitions because of children. I'm experiencing it right now. It's sometimes a very profound feeling of having to let go. I try not to make the children my pride, nor to determine their destiny too much, in short, not to tie them to my ego. They have their own destiny and it's not necessarily something I would hope for though it can be.

 

It's always a challenge to keep yourself authentic towards your feelings. With children it's even more so, with all the social programming on how parents are supposed to feel about things concerning the kids and the kids themselves. There's a lot of fear and shame-based response in our culture, sometimes it's even called love.

[JustARandomPanda]

I agree, many of them are very passive aggressive and angry. They also let past bad experiences define their reality. However, just like women who have been married to abusive men, or had bad boyfriends and are now negative and bitter, there are legitimate reasons for their grievances.

 

That may be true - that they have legitimately experienced being wronged by women. But it's just as much a distortion of the truth to let their past color their view so that they have this negativity toward the class known as "woman" (and vise versa, women about men).

 

Claiming you love women (or men), all the while subscribing to the ethos of victim class v. abused class like those websites promote just ends up creating more pain for the person who buys into it. Instead of healing his/her baggage they are reveling in the power of their pain.

 

What's even sadder imo is when the person who buys into that victim mentality unknowingly or knowingly transmits their pain onto the person they're seeing.

 

I used to have a load of anger built up toward men. I've had some pretty bad relationships in the past. It took me a while but I finally realized the anger and hate was a cancer. It was eating me alive inside. Even worse was realizing it was coloring how I viewed all men. Not just the men whom had caused me to feel the rage and hate but it - like cancer - was starting to metastasize to ALL men.

 

This was the fruit of "buying into" the story I'd told myself that the men I'd been with who caused me pain (including physical) were pieces of shit. It was an object in motion that stayed in motion and there was no countervailing force to my victim story. And so it started metastasizing. Not only was I dying spiritually inside but there was real danger of a good, loving man being hurt by my 'story' - I would be passing on the pain unconsciously. Then HE would in turn have rage and anger against women.

 

And so the cycle of pain never ends.

 

That's what those websites are doing. Instead of offering healing and hope they are reveling in the pain and power of their victim story. And like cancer, if held onto and used to define one's being it will metastasize. Just like how it has metastasized to the class 'woman' in those men who've attached to their own victim story.

 

 

It takes a lot of slow, not always rewarding work to walk away from the sheer power bestowed by one's pain and hate.

[Smile]

Nice post SereneB.

To me, those websites offer comfort to those who have been abused by the system. Of course it goes both ways and there are site like that for women too. Unfortunately, nowadays there is too much pain due to the system set up for men to even think about the process of healing. I was lucky enough to meet girls that were very good too me, and I was good to them. But I can relate to guys who ware cheated on, got divorced and kicked out of their own house, only to pay 50% of their paycheck to their ex-wives. I can feel their pain, and if you tell them you should relax and just let go of the past, they simply can't do that. There is a lot of emotional trauma to work through, and until then they bond together in support.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen to women as well. Still, unfotunately, if you are a white male in this country, you have lost all your rights and are forced to keep your mouth shut and take all the abuse from the system. It's even worse for a black male.

[soundhunter]

Marriage in my experience is not about the certificate.

 

Marriage to me was the formal uniting of my husband and I as family, vs disposable boyfriend and girlfriend. The ritual, the ceremony, the celebration of our families coming together, was besides the birth of my first child, one of the two greatest days of my life. My husband values our marriage and would find nothing he could relate to in the anti marriage scene, he grew up with an intact family in a family centered European culture.

 

I own a little cafe and daily, I listen to different people having different conversations with each other. I marvel at the way many older folks revere their spouses, the kind ways many decades-long couples act towards each other even when they are not in each other's presence, in the ways they speak about each other to others, to me.

 

Marriage is the creation of family between non related individuals, the sacredness of this may not be important to many folks, and many families are fucked up just as many marriages are, but I don't agree with those anti women anti marriage sites that strive to marginalize it's sacredness and benefits. I don't think marriage is for everyone and it's great we live in the west where it's optional, a choice. But for many people it's an important human ritual and a cultural construct that is for the most part, a blessing and a stabilizing, wholesome and healthy way for human families to thrive.

Edited October 20, 2009 by soundhunter

[JustARandomPanda]

Nice post SereneB.

To me, those websites offer comfort to those who have been abused by the system. Of course it goes both ways and there are site like that for women too. Unfortunately, nowadays there is too much pain due to the system set up for men to even think about the process of healing. I was lucky enough to meet girls that were very good too me, and I was good to them. But I can relate to guys who ware cheated on, got divorced and kicked out of their own house, only to pay 50% of their paycheck to their ex-wives. I can feel their pain, and if you tell them you should relax and just let go of the past, they simply can't do that. There is a lot of emotional trauma to work through, and until then they bond together in support.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen to women as well. Still, unfotunately, if you are a white male in this country, you have lost all your rights and are forced to keep your mouth shut and take all the abuse from the system. It's even worse for a black male.

 

Hopefully men will work to change the system. I would support them fully in making things equitable.

 

It is the nature of humans to take advantage of a situation that favors them - especially if the other party doesn't say anything. It happens in family. It happens in sports. It happens in careers.

It happens with both because it's a human trait, not a gender one.

 

I have recently seen some social research that indicates the real reason for the low rates of marriage among blacks is not so much because black women don't want it but rather that marriage is rejected by unusually high numbers of black men. In other words...the fruit of buying into the us-v.-them victim mentality for many of them. Except this time the pain gets passed on to the most innocent beings of all - children. And now it's being actively promoted to all men - see that NoMarriage.com site as a case in point. A site by a man who's hate for the women in his past has metastasized to the point he now has to evangelize. Believe me, I recognized my own.

 

If men feel the system is unfair they need to work to change it. As someone who is a bacheloress I have no problem with someone wanting to remain single all their life. There are many people of both sexes who do so happily and responsibly. What I do confess to having a problem with is being single yet still making babies (and that goes just as much for what I feel about women choosing this route as I do for men).

 

 

p.s. wanted to state I am not ascribing blame to men. It's unproductive and doesn't solve anything. I was just - I guess in a not-so-good way - stating that I think those websites hurt more than help men get over their pain and to not let it be passed back to the women they're seeing. I think the same of Women-are-Victims websites.

Edited October 20, 2009 by SereneBlue

[Enishi]

If men feel the system is unfair they need to work to change it.

 

I've read several men's rights types who have tried to change the system. According to them, by and large, their efforts turned to naught, even after countless decades. Not only do most people (liberal feminists and conservatives alike) attack the emotional warrant of their arguments rather than the factual content by accusing these men of hatred or misogyny, but even many who do agree don't bother to support them because it does nothing for them on a personal level.

 

Speaking in terms of my own perspective, so far as I can tell, much of the heartache women experience is due to them choosing partners who turned out to be bad guys. And in terms of myself, some of the worst emotional pain I've experienced was due to women I liked choosing men who are louder, ruder or more "edgy" than myself. Therefore, the only thing I can do for myself, rather than attempt to change the entire system, is to study PUA and attempt to develop "game", confidence (the traits many bad boys have) without actually becoming a "bad boy" on an internal level. *shrug*

Edited October 20, 2009 by Enishi

[JustARandomPanda]

 

I've read several men's rights types who have tried to change the system. According to them, by and large, their efforts turned to naught, even after countless decades.

 

Slavery survived for 100+ years in the US and still goes on around the world today (I was disturbed to discover Dubai*, for example, is a huge slave-owning / trading / exploiting nation today). It took women well over 100 years to earn the right to vote here.

 

It may well take 100-200 years to turn the ship around in Family Law because men are fighting common law passed down from an era when women were chattel property of men.

 

I would still advise men to keep their heads up and keep up the fight.

 

Don't lose hope Enishi. There are plenty of good women out there - many of whom you do not find attractive in the least but would love to be with you. You'll find women whom you are attracted to and they to you too just the way you are.

 

Learn from my mistake.

 

Don't indulge the hate.

 

 

edit:

 

*pardon...remembered it was Dubai...not Abu Dhabi that the expose was about.

Edited October 20, 2009 by SereneBlue

[Biff]

(His and Hers diary entries)

 

 

HER DIARY

=========

 

Tonight, I thought my husband was acting weird. We had made plans to meet at a bar to have a drink. I was shopping with my friends all day long, so I thought he was upset at the fact that I was a bit late, but he made no comment on it.

 

Conversation wasn't flowing, so I suggested that we go somewhere quiet so we could talk. He agreed, but he didn't say much. I asked him what was wrong. He said, 'Nothing.' I asked him if it was my fault that he was upset. He said he wasn't upset, that it had nothing to do with me, and not to worry about it.

 

On the way home, I told him that I loved him. He smiled slightly, and kept driving. I can't explain his behavior. I don't know why he didn't say, 'I love you, too.' When we got home, I felt as if I had lost him completely, as if he wanted nothing to do with me anymore. He just sat there quietly, and watched TV. He continued to seem distant and absent.

 

Finally, with silence all around us, I decided to go to bed. About 15 minutes later, he came to bed. To my surprise, he responded to my caress, and we made love. But I still felt that he was distracted, and his thoughts were somewhere else. He fell asleep -I cried. I don't know what to do. I'm almost sure that his thoughts are with someone else. My life is a disaster.

 

 

 

HIS DIARY

=========

 

My Snowmobile wouldn't start today, but at least I got laid.

[joeblast]

Haha...why is it that whatever the hell it is she wants to do, it aint what I want to do, in fact its often disrupting me from what it is I want to do? Oh, yes, its the "you never want to spend time with me" thing

[CarsonZi]

Wow....I have just finished reading this thread from start to finish....a LOT of great stuff in here....I grabbed a few quotes as I went and thought I would share what had struck me as I read it:

 

Plastic Object said:

I'd say that to commit oneself to having children and to help them to grow up, is the most basic, simple and straightforward human (or animal for that matter) way to culture the virtues of love, devotion and unselfishness. (It is btw also a good way to understand oneself and to learn more about the patterns and behaviours that one received from one's own parents.)

 

Totally agree 100%....although I am not a Father yet, my wife is (finally ) pregnant and I will be soon....even just knowing that a child has been concieved has put a completely new "spin" on the "virtues of love, devotion and unselfishness"....the thought of holding my child at the birth sends waves of sheer Bliss through my entire soul.

 

Wenwu said:

too many people look for these things i.e. a wife a child to make them feel complete

 

if you are not complete without them, you will never be complete with them, if fact you will be more broken becasue you will be stealing energy from them and putting them under pressure for the short comings in your life.

 

I agree. My previous relationship (8 years) did not work because I did not know how to feel complete without her. Now that I know I am complete as myself, I have something worth giving to a partner and our subsequent offspring and the resulting communion is radiant.

 

Thelerner said:

You learn about love and sacrifice from your kids. You're constantly reminded about simple pleasures of play and unconditioned awareness. They give you a chance to re-experience pieces of your childhood, fly the kites again, play video games, catch, see a ball game.

 

They're a test of sanity but you wouldn't trade them for anything. They give meaning to life and are a reason for hope in the world.

 

Wives similarly. You learn love and intimacy; fight for it, surrender to it. Its nice to wake up to a warm body in your bed, too trust someone with everything.

 

I love this....I have nothing to add...I just wanted to highlight this beautiful post. I can't wait to be a Dad.

 

Steve F said:

I look at having a family as an important part of a fulfilling life for me. Not everyone feels the desire. The joys and heartbreaks of a long term relationship and raising children are infinitely more intense to me than the highest highs or lowest lows of cultivation. I would not have a fraction of my understanding and appreciation for life without being a parent and husband. It has been the source of some of my greatest pain and challenges. On the other hand, it provides the greatest rewards one can dream of. Nevertheless, personal cultivation remains an extremely important part of my life.

 

Awesome. I really like your posts Steve...thank you. I used to always say that I would never bring a child into this world, and I used to justify that with all different kinds of reasons. But after learning the joy of living for "other-selves" and not for "my-self" I have come to realize that Fatherhood is tailor-made for me. The radiant joy I feel just knowing that I will be a Father, let alone what it will be like BEING a Father, is enough to have to force myself to relax ..... I can get a little excited

 

Taomeow said:

This understanding, about the biggest obligation having to be directed towards the weakest, most dependent -- the child -- rather than the powerful who you have no power and control over -- is missing from the collective consciousness and the collective unconscious of all civilized societies, which makes me think civilization, at the core of what it's for, is an acting-out of this one make-or-break omission of the human experience, a big toy for an emotionally frustrated child who can never grow up because the real thing never was, so he'll have to play with toys -- for a few thousand years... This, too, shall pass...

 

Wow....heavy. I had to read this (and the post it came from) like ten times before I began to really grasp the totality of what you are saying here.....and upon some reflection I have to tentatively agree! ("tentatively" because I find this so "shattering" that I don't want to "latch on" real hard like I may have a tendency to do with things this shattering for me). Thank you for making such a conscious post!

 

CosmoGeek said:

* Marriage teaches you that love is more than just being horny.

* Having kids teaches you what unconditional love is all about.

* Your children teach you at least as much as you teach them, on many levels.

* I can't think of anything that builds character more than being a family man

 

Love it! Thanks for the great list!

 

Hagar said:

In the Book of Job it says; "To be free, you have to stand firm".

 

I for one, kicked and screamed my way into realizing that being in society, having a family and a job is exactly what was needed for me to finally give up

 

Same exact thing here. I dreaded getting married, (avoided it for 8 years with one partner, and had to end it or buy a ring and I refused to break as I saw no need for a piece of paper validifying our relationship) refused to bring a child into this world, and for most of my adult life I have worked for myself as I refused to relinquish any control to a "boss". But finding my wife, choosing to get married, (for all the wrong reasons) choosing to have a family, and choosing to "work for the man" has been the best thing I could have ever done for myself. What I lost in psuedo-freedom I gained in REAL-freedom.

 

What a great thread.

 

Thanks Everyone.

 

Love,

Carson

[宁]

Wierd. My girlfriend knows the actor that plays the main character. Its Norwegian, so I'd guess this proves my point. Did you pick it intentionally?

 

h

 

it's more complicated than intention... i've seen it, it matched, i knew you are from the north, voila

 

@Soundhounter - the best post i've read yet on this thread...

 

@carson, congrats!

 

@hagar, tell your girlfriend's aquaintance that a fan said 'hi'

 

@Smile, remember this please: many kids would love to have a dad like you... or a grand dad

[Smile]

@Smile, remember this please: many kids would love to have a dad like you... or a grand dad

Little1, you are too kind. The biggest problem I have with kids is that it's a full time job, SO much time is involved on raising them, playing, feeding, talking, all the energy... And this world now is very unfriendly to babies and to humans in general.... Just look at vaccines, education, GM foods and all the brainwashing they get right from the start of their little lives... and you have to stay between them and the big G. and protect them.... Like I said it's a full time job. And I have a list of things to do, besides cultivation.... Edited October 20, 2009 by Smile

[宁]

Little1, you are too kind. The biggest problem I have with kids is that it's a full time job, SO much time is involved on raising them, playing, feeding, talking, all the energy... And this world now is very unfriendly to babies and to humans in general.... Just look at vaccines, education, GM foods and all the brainwashing they get right from the start of their little lives... and you have to stay between them and the big G. and protect them.... Like I said it's a full time job. And I have a list of things to do, besides cultivation....

Sounds like a good way of training to me

I just said that because you know what and how, more than many many parents. And that is greately needed. Also, as me and hagar said, it's usually not something you really go ahead and plan to do... It's a gift, for many many reasons. It may or may not happen, but if it does, i just wanted to tell you that you are more ready for it than you think

Please accept my appologies if i am too nosy about it...

[Mal]

[宁]

We plan everything, as best we can.

 

Planning isnt' getting it, is it? There are many that want, but... nothing.

And it's more and more common these days.

[hagar]

@hagar, tell your girlfriend's aquaintance that a fan said 'hi'

 

The plot thickens:

As we were exiting our tram at the station yesterday, I glanced over to the other platform, and spotted the bothersome man himself, standing waiting for the bus.

 

X-fileish

 

h

[宁]

you had me worried for a moment, when you said bus station

if it was a subway station, my heart would stop for a moment

cheers