Mal Posted January 5, 2009 I have 2 friends who cultivated and then had kids. None of them are very happy as it take ALL your time. Glad you posted that. I was going to say, what happens if you decide to have a child, your world turns upside down and you don't like it anymore. It's not like you can return said child for a refund Good parents really do seem to give everything to there kids. Bad parents seem to ignore or even actively resent their kids. I'd rather not try then find out I'm in option 2 Actually speaking of "trying" I'm not sure if it was my upbringing with "safe sex" being drummed into us all the time. But the idea of having sex TO make her pregnant is ...... well it's a creepy, unpleasant, dare I say even abhorrent, feeling for me. That said. Perhaps if I had a partner desperately wanting kids, wanting to raise them herself with my only involvement being in the "good stuff" (playing, teaching) then ..... perhaps I could..... perhaps. Still seems "weird" to me Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hyok Posted January 5, 2009 (edited) Heh, it's not that hard to do, everyone around us is doing it... The thing is, a practicioner can do it for a different reason... I think that's the gist of it - practitioners can do it for different reasons, but what is a stark contrast from what you're seeing is that almost everyone around me who is married/has kids seems very stressed out and seem secretly resentful in some way. Not to be a downer or anything, but that's the reality I see. The ones who "seem" to have it together usually have a religious or strong family support group behind them, but they're few and far between. I like the idea of marriage as a unification of two families as well as two kindred spirits, and children are angels to me, but what I think is more important is finding a partner who is over the euphoria and the sentiment of an adolescent lifestyle. Regarding children though, I do think those of us who are very aware seem too concerned with how we will perform as parents, which is interesting considering we would probably make great parents because of this. Which reminds me of an old client of mine who was neck-deep in family life, I remember asking him if it was tough raising kids. His response was ... "Nah. You just feed them the scraps." Edited January 5, 2009 by hyok Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wudangquan Posted January 5, 2009 Here's my take on this . . . If you're strong enough and disciplined enough, you might as well adhere to normal human activity. Those hermetic traditions - going off into the mountains or living as a monk in a temple . . . They seek to eliminate your human attachments by removing you from them. It's much more difficult, and much better as far as cultivation goes to deal with them head on, confront them, eliminate them, and move on. I've thought so many times throughout the years about monkhood or hermetism, but in the end . . . I would rather stay in society and be tested by fire than the gentle luke warm breezes in the mountains. IMHO, Jonathan Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dao zhen Posted January 5, 2009 I think for the most part, this subject is misunderstood - due to lack of education - I have been taught that the first stages of cultivation has to be done in society. As in the first stages, we have to temper our heart. How to learn to transform anger, negative patterns, desire and all the rest, unless we are confronted with it on a daily basis? I was taught that while living in society, one can generally pass through the stages of: 1. Cleanse the Heart of all Desire and Passion 2. Settle Mind Will in Lower Dantian 3. Transform Jing to Qi 4. Small Water Wheel 5. Harvest of Yang Qi Etc......... The Stage of "Incubation" MUST be done in an isolated nature area, where there is no real contact with other humans... There are many reasons for this..... I think to go off into the mountains without first dealing with people, situations and society is a big mistake. But also, it is a big mistake to fool oneself into thinking they can stay in society, be around people and complete the whole course of evolution in Alchemy Practice. Just depends on what your goals are. I think there is amazing growth to be had in relationships and family life. Going to the higher levels of Alchemy practice is something for the few and not the many.......... Here's my take on this . . . If you're strong enough and disciplined enough, you might as well adhere to normal human activity. Those hermetic traditions - going off into the mountains or living as a monk in a temple . . . They seek to eliminate your human attachments by removing you from them. It's much more difficult, and much better as far as cultivation goes to deal with them head on, confront them, eliminate them, and move on. I've thought so many times throughout the years about monkhood or hermetism, but in the end . . . I would rather stay in society and be tested by fire than the gentle luke warm breezes in the mountains. IMHO, Jonathan Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
宁 Posted January 5, 2009 L1, very interesting views you got there. I can only state my beliefs: -No one can make you whole but yourself. -if you want to experience what involves to have kids with all the lessons coming with it, fine. Doesn't mean you have to in this lifetime. You probably had similar lessons before in other lifetimes - does it mean you have to repeat them over and over? Some people are slow learners. - a child can carry your genes which in a way is immortality. In the lowest played down sense, in "Special Olympics" sort of way. I have 2 friends who cultivated and then had kids. None of them are very happy as it take ALL your time. Maybe the Taobum crowd is different. I understand... All I have to add to what I've said above is that... I think you would be a great daddy! Mal, Not time is the big loss, for most men... It's the selfish nature... Once you stepped over it, it becomes the best spiritual experience you ever had. I can't bet all my money on it, but i think that if a man starts with this thing in mind... it's a completely different story... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wudangquan Posted January 5, 2009 I think for alot of similarities, this is probably a point of divergence between me and DZ. What do you think the point or the function of human society is? For what purpose do you believe it exists? How did you end up here? I'm asking in an inquisitive way, not a critical one, in case it doesn't come across right on the internet . . . I imagine that this belief that hermetic isolation is necessary comes from Lao Zi leaving, Zenwu, etc. but frankly - the people who I've met that are cultivating in the cities and who work, etc. seem to be doing better than the ones who begin hermetic . . . The diligent ones that is. That's not to say that I disagree in principle, but I do think that . . . Well I've never met someone who had reached consumation so I can't say for sure, but I am not sure that hermetism need be a literal or physical withdrawal. Maybe a different type of withdrawal. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mal Posted January 5, 2009 the euphoria and the sentiment of an adolescent lifestyle. That's what would have to change. We just like being selfish. Plus we have been living just like we did during Uni for years now For a "Taoist" I don't like change much Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
joeblast Posted January 5, 2009 I've had my cake and eaten it too, so to speak. Growing up I couldnt fathom why anyone would want kids...and then all of a sudden I joined the group, like it or not. Hasnt been easy, even though I've had it ridiculously easy in comparison to others in my situation...and I've basically never given up my quasi-adolescent-ness...I was quite adolescent when he was born, that's for sure. My boy's gonna be 15 next month...and the challenge is always there, never the same as it was just ever so recently. They grow up fast! The younger they learn stuff, the more adept they seem to be at it as time continues. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sirius Posted January 5, 2009 little 1, thank you very much for this grat thread! i am married and have two kids (13 and 20 years old). that`s why this topic is very interesting for me. and it is interesting too, because i wanted to share the job of bringing up the kids with my wife. probably this was easier for me, because i work in shift. that means that i can spend whole days at home during the week. but i have to work on weekends or holidays or at night as well. to sum up my twenty years of experience in family life and beeing a father and a "spiritual" person i can say: a family is the ultimate taoist training camp! it`s not the easygoing weekend workshop, but it`s the 365 days challenge! and all in all with all the ups and downs of all day life it is the place where i want to be, where i can learn, where i can give and take and where i feel at home. and it`s the place where i get a direct und very unscensored feeback concerning my behaviour and concerning my compassion and my patience. and - very important - there`s my wife, who is a true friend, who reminds me everytime of the earthly realities when i am drifting among the taoist clouds in the seventh heaven of enlightenment. lol! and what about the fruits of my cultivation? what can i transmit into my daily life? - i can`t change my family completely, nor can i change my place of work. but i try to bring more humour, more patience and compassion into my life and the life of others. and from time to time i do some yoga or chi kung exercises with my daughters. thank you again, little 1! and thank you to all you taobums who posted so many inspiring thoughts! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Billy K Posted January 5, 2009 (edited) IMO, relationships to other people only drain your energy. Sleep, eat, drink, cultivate, that`s all you need. Be like a ghost, enter and exit others' lives without asking for anything and without leaving any trace. Edited January 5, 2009 by Billy K Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sunshine Posted January 5, 2009 IMO, relationships to other people only drain your energy. Sleep, eat, drink, cultivate, that`s all you need. Be like a ghost, enter and exit others' lives without asking for anything and without leaving any trace. I suggest to read some Ken Wilber. It is likely that you won't get anywhere if you do not develop all aspects of your being. If you reject relationships of any kind you reject experience and thereby reject growth. That means: falling on your cultivation ladder one day for sure as you lack development overall. Harry Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
宁 Posted January 5, 2009 little 1, thank you very much for this grat thread! heh, thank you for letting me know you like it... it's one topic i'd like to see active a lot more, because, as you said, it can offer someone a good training camp... good luck with your life and practice... in the end, if it was all just chasing the winds, at least we did our best in raising our kids, and loving our wives... it's not much, but for people like us, it's enough to live and die for... L1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Starjumper Posted January 5, 2009 I suggest to read some Ken Wilber. It is likely that you won't get anywhere if you do not develop all aspects of your being. If you reject relationships of any kind you reject experience and thereby reject growth. That means: falling on your cultivation ladder one day for sure as you lack development overall. Exactly. The way I see it is that if people are too 'broken' or afraid then they can do the monastic thing. It's so easy to pretend you're cool when you don't have to deal with family, but spiritual growth means emotional maturity, and you can't get there until you have been raising a child or two and try to get along with a wife. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Unconditioned Posted January 5, 2009 - your being is largely a donation to you from three sources: 1. The Ancestors 2. The Earth 3. The Heavens if you want to do anything with yourself, you need to first pay your debt to these Three Sources of your LifeForce. Paying the debt, to either ancestors, earth or heavens - im sure there are thousands of accounts for it in mythology and relligion. Then, after winning the trust and support of THE THREE, your Path is open. Well, what do you make of it? Others? Hmm, the idea of coming into being with an inherit debt is definitely a common theme in some forms of Christianity (aka original sin). Perhaps it's a practice unto itself but why would an innocent, untainted being be brought into existence with a debt to settle? Is this similar to the idea of Karma and reincarnation? My personal view is that we are purest at our core when we manifest into this life and the only debts we have are the ones we've created for ourselves. I think for alot of similarities, this is probably a point of divergence between me and DZ. What do you think the point or the function of human society is? For what purpose do you believe it exists? How did you end up here? I'm asking in an inquisitive way, not a critical one, in case it doesn't come across right on the internet . . . I imagine that this belief that hermetic isolation is necessary comes from Lao Zi leaving, Zenwu, etc. but frankly - the people who I've met that are cultivating in the cities and who work, etc. seem to be doing better than the ones who begin hermetic . . . The diligent ones that is. That's not to say that I disagree in principle, but I do think that . . . Well I've never met someone who had reached consumation so I can't say for sure, but I am not sure that hermetism need be a literal or physical withdrawal. Maybe a different type of withdrawal. What is there to withdraw from? Where do we withdraw to? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
宁 Posted January 5, 2009 Hmm, the idea of coming into being with an inherit debt is definitely a common theme in some forms of Christianity (aka original sin). Perhaps it's a practice unto itself but why would an innocent, untainted being be brought into existence with a debt to settle? Is this similar to the idea of Karma and reincarnation? My personal view is that we are purest at our core when we manifest into this life and the only debts we have are the ones we've created for ourselves. What is there to withdraw from? Where do we withdraw to? Heh, no, it's not that... It means what it's written there, nothing else. Don't mind me, this is just a small counter-current thinking... We're not the center of the world, this is what it ultimately means, i think... Good luck L1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Unconditioned Posted January 5, 2009 Heh, no, it's not that... It means what it's written there, nothing else. Don't mind me, this is just a small counter-current thinking... We're not the center of the world, this is what it ultimately means, i think... Good luck L1 Just offering up a response to your questions Why do we need to pay debts at all? Are we separate from our causes? Why does one need to gain trust and support of another before the path is cleared? What is the motivation to repay? Guilt? Fear? Love? Respect? Greed? Achievement? I don't mean these in a sarcastic or patronizing way. I agree that we're not the center of the world because we're not separate from it. Not because we should feel as though we're a small fish in a big pond or that we're a big fish in a small pond. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Taiji Bum Posted January 6, 2009 For quite awhile I have thought I was pretty evolved but since I've gotten a gf I am realizing what a dick I am. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shontonga Posted January 6, 2009 (edited) For quite awhile I have thought I was pretty evolved but since I've gotten a gf I am realizing what a dick I am. LOL! ... nothing to say just made me laugh! Nothing like the ones we love to show us who we are they can be so willing to hold up that mirror? for better or um, not so better ... good luck! now I'm going to have to go back and look through this thread! ...it's a long thread! Edited January 6, 2009 by shontonga Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
宁 Posted January 6, 2009 JWhy do we need to pay debts at all? Are we separate from our causes? Why does one need to gain trust and support of another before the path is cleared? What is the motivation to repay? Guilt? Fear? Love? Respect? Greed? Achievement? Hi, all of them are very good questions, and the adventure of finding out the answer to them is kind of unique, and very satisfactory... I would feel very guilty to "steal" this adventure from you... Good luck in finding your own answers L1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trash Filter Posted January 6, 2009 We all can learn a lot from relationships, and help us come to understandings by facing fears and challenging ourselves. What is more, if you can find a partner that supports your skill and time needed in chi, it is a wonderful thing. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
purplerose Posted January 6, 2009 This thread isn't for me, cause I'm a woman , but I've seen male taoist practitioners that I admire and respect and need to tell you about them. They are wonderful people and they have changed a lot in better not only because of their practices but also cause they love a woman, made a life with her, got wonderful kids and continued their practice all along. Those guys have their high goals (spiritual or not) in life that they pursue and fulfill, and they still enjoy every moment they have with their family and kids. I've also seen practitioners still wondering about and not wanting to settle down. Looking more closely, they need some balance in their life. There are even some who have a life partner, but don't have kids, cause they think they need more time... but kids would make them more mature (both emotionally and spiritually) and would help them progress in their practice and understanding. Am I right or am I right? PS: Practitioner parents can always learn from a great teacher like their kid is. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mal Posted January 7, 2009 There are even some who have a life partner, but don't have kids, cause they think they need more time... but kids would make them more mature (both emotionally and spiritually) and would help them progress in their practice and understanding. Would ?? a bit strong I'd got with "might " Although we are not going to have one just to test the theory Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shontonga Posted January 7, 2009 kids are such smart buggers. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Starjumper Posted January 7, 2009 (edited) Yeah, they're like little Zen masters, always knowing which button to push, and pushing them =) Edited January 7, 2009 by Starjumper7 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rain Posted January 7, 2009 (edited) kids are such smart buggers. Yeah, they're like little Zen masters, always knowing which button to push, and pushing them =) Edited January 7, 2009 by rain Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
