The "Get a Job, Have a Wife, Make a Child , Get a Life" Thread

[宁]

interestingly, most of the masters that we know of, were and are all married with children - even high level

and it's the same with most of the serious practicioners

(of course there are some few exceptions)

 

i think we have two kinds of destinies: worldly destiny and heavenly destiny

maybe those masters were concerned with fulfilling both of them

 

if we can't master the seen, nevermind the unseen - this is somewhat what Confucius said, when asked about gods and demons and magic

[Nanashi]

Having kids makes sense for a paradigm that existed long ago, when populations were low and sustainable.

 

But is it wise to indiscriminately have kids in the modern age, with such a world? I'm not saying it is for everyone to ignore reproduction; but those who don't procreate are helping by not causing a massive population spike to be even worse than it is now. Especially if it is just to follow biological conditioning.

[宁]

If you are concerned with 'population spike', maybe you don't know. Population is about to be reduced at 400 million people, this is what is supposed to be accomplished in the next 20 or so years...

Yet, I don't think it is related to the topic at hand, anymore than lighting up a candle is related with global warming. Did you know that one active volcano warms up the planet more than all our industrial means put together? Anyhow, we're not discussing quantity, but quality, as practicioners...

[Nanashi]

I hear what you mean, but my point still applies. The choice to function within societies (job, marriage, kids) will still require a balance to make sure populations stay managed, otherwise it could overpopulate just as quickly-- even more considering technological advances, sanitation and constant food supply.

 

I didn't mention global warming, and didn't mean to imply I was hinting as that as a problem. The earth is pretty tough, I already knew about volcano as "the biggest polluter of earth", but all that smog in cities like Beijing and LA can't be healthy, if at least only to other people.

 

What is your exact evidence of cause to this population drop? Famine? Disease? NWO-murder plot? The earth's axis flipping? I'm just curious.

[宁]

 

What is your exact evidence of cause to this population drop? Famine? Disease? NWO-murder plot? The earth's axis flipping? I'm just curious.

 

Nevermind your sarcasm, the one that worries me most is the constant degeneration of humanity as a species...

But you're right... Enjoy your choise!

[Nanashi]

No, I honestly didn't mean to be sarcastic, although as I read it now, it does seem to have a biting tone.

 

I was actually really curious to what you think may happen, or what you base this claim off of. The Georgia Guidestones?

 

I apologize, I didn't mean to turn you off to our discussion.

[宁]

It's ok.

The thing is, i think people need to grow up.

You know, you can have energy work and enlightenment even without growing up. Isn't that something?...

The title of the thread shows one of the possible paths, the easiest choise, easy because it is somehow (tended to be) mandatory (a while ago)... But, people that have other opinions are right too... Still...

It's a hard way, thou. I don't know if we can replace it with anything else. Reinvent another kind o wheel perhaps? The training that it involves is so thourough, i can't imagine anything more suitable - and i'm the happy possessor of a good imagination...

 

Re the population issue: if you look at the present, you will know your future. Especially, take a good look at the health care business, food, water, air, mindset...

 

I think we get sidetracked from the real issues of the human being... this is what i think now.

Edited February 3, 2010 by Little1

[Taiji Bum]

400,000,000? Baby boomers? Their retirement, healthcare costs and deaths are going to remake the world just as they did when they were living.

[Nanashi]

Hmm, I see. Interesting points.

[King Kabalabhati]

I've found myself in a situation where I'm managing three children by myself about 5 days a week. I live in the country with no bathroom or shower facilities, we do have running water though. Their mother spends the weeks in town studying.

 

OK now that I'm in this mess.. I'm trying to make what I can out of it cultivation-wise. On the one hand, it restricts the time I have for practice quite severely. On the other hand, it gives me an everyday setting for my unconditional love practice to happen, under demanding and ungrateful conditions

[宁]

In Chinese is called Xing Ming Shuang Xiu, Double cultivation of Destiny and Life...

 

If you cultivate Life without cultivating Destiny, you can still achieve high level.

Have you seen the movie The Picture of Dorian Gray? Or the Imaginarium of Dr Parnassus?

Immortality and superpowers are ALWAYS associated with deviation in the West...

mad scientists, vampires, lunacy...

 

That what it means, not cultivating the Destiny. The human part.

[宁]

400,000,000? Baby boomers? Their retirement, healthcare costs and deaths are going to remake the world just as they did when they were living.

Darin knows, he has to

 

It's interesting that the West doesn't have a positive immortal figure, besides one or two religious figures...

[宁]

must see

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_m-Da8Tz4_E

 

it's one of the best movies i've ever seen

Edited February 12, 2010 by Little1

[innerspace_cadet]

Hellow,

 

what are your thoughts on this?

 

what part do you think it plays in personal cultivation?

 

how can personal cultivation benefit from it,

and how our Life can benefit from personal cultivation?

 

how did your kids help you undestand more about the Tao?

 

how did maternal pregnancy help you figure out more about spiritual pregnancy?

 

there are so many questions that can be adressed, please dont be shy and make a list yourselves...

 

there were a lot of wise words on this.

all of the guys and girls that know what it means, please share an insight

 

Thank you so much

 

 

L1

 

 

I personally don't want children. I'm not even sure I want to get married. But I do want to accumulate enough wealth so I have the freedom to put in a resignation letter to my boss if I don't feel like working anymore. I don't see wealth as a way to buy things I don't need; I see it as a tool to break the cycle of having to "work for a living." I think personal cultivation can help you loosen some attachments that may cause you to spend your money on material things. It is like a feedback loop: through cultivation you loosen your attachments to buying things you don't need, and since you don't spend as much money, you can retire earlier, so you can spend more time cultivating.

[宁]

I personally don't want children. I'm not even sure I want to get married. But I do want to accumulate enough wealth so I have the freedom to put in a resignation letter to my boss if I don't feel like working anymore. I don't see wealth as a way to buy things I don't need; I see it as a tool to break the cycle of having to "work for a living." I think personal cultivation can help you loosen some attachments that may cause you to spend your money on material things. It is like a feedback loop: through cultivation you loosen your attachments to buying things you don't need, and since you don't spend as much money, you can retire earlier, so you can spend more time cultivating.

 

see the movie, up in the air with clooney...

[Smile]

see the movie, up in the air with clooney...

I've seen it. What is your take on it?

[宁]

I've seen it. What is your take on it?

I couldn't help thinking about the reasons and ideas i've read on this thread, pro or against involving in society, and responsability. The backpack idea was very simmilar to my philosophy 15 years ago Yet from my experience, and the experience of some of my friends, the most functional ideas sound really crappy in theory. And viceversa.

[Enishi]

If you do decide to go the traditional route, just make sure you don't end up like the guy in this story. Yeesh. O.o

 

Of course, this guys problems went far beyond simply getting married. Even if you choose to serve others, it's important to set boundaries and maintain balance by holding fast to your own dreams as well.

 

http://markymarksthoughts.blogspot.com/2010/07/story-of-mike.html

 

MarkyMark,

 

I'm writing this to tell you of an old friend of mine, a man I greatly respected and the tale of his life. What makes this man special is the that by all accounts his life, his married life, working life, and family life, was a "success" by the standards laid down by modern society. I'll call him Michael (not is real name) and he was a true blue worker, very intelligent, and raised to provide by two parents who stayed together and raised their son with strict Baptist values. He wasn't all that handsome but invested his younger years diligently, pursuing an engineering degree at Duke University back when grade inflation didn't exist (early 1960's). The girls he dated, well, he didn't date much as he was a nerd and being the 60's the girls with the new freedom used that freedom to ride the cock train of football players and players in general. The new age of sexual emancipation left Mike at the station. Years after college Mike met a girl who had gotten her fill of the bad boys, and they started dating. True she was no virgin while Mike was, she'd had several relationships and relations before but she recognized the value of Mike in that he had a new job with an up and coming career track - computers! Misinterpretation of his prior religious teaching ordered him to forgive this girl’s past and instead focus only on the future. It was his duty after all. He married her and worked, hard. His father worked for the railroad and the company had taken care of him so Mike knew that this was the way to a good life. Work hard, and the company would reward and take care of you. Then the 1970's hit with the Carter recession and all that loyalty and hard work amounted to nothing. Still he tried again, found another job (that forced him to move frequently) and this one wanted even more hours than the prior job. I remember him saying "It's Friday do you know what that means? It's only two more working days until Monday!" and off he'd go. Everyday. For 43 years. He had two children, a boy then a girl, and worked while his wife stayed at home. Later on after the children were out of high school Mikes wife dabbled a little here and there and worked part time occasionally for a convenience store. The extra money was nice but not enough so she pecked Mike continuously to make extra money. It was never enough. "Go tell your boss you need more! You should show him your value! A real man would provide for his children!" and on it went. Mike was getting older now, and had always had diabetes, a life long condition he had to treat with regular insulin injections. The shots were painful but he needed them to think straight. Of course there was the time he was laid off in 1980 with no insurance and the daughter needed braces. A real man knows when to put others first after all. And of course when the mother in law needed a new roof, and he really had promised his wife that new washing machine, and oh she needed to go see her mother for Christmas as well and airfare was so expensive. So the medicine(s) waited, more than once.

 

His children were boomerang types, his daughter slutted it up with a guy and moved in with him but later on came back home until she was able to snag a younger version of Mike. His son dropped out of college a few times and then came home to be a bum for 2 years after deciding that work was too nerve wracking. Mike would never throw his children out so they stayed for several more years. Several more. Finally when his son hit 28 he found a slut with a child from another guy and got her pregnant. The girl wanted a lavish wedding but his son was only working at a book store and couldn't afford it - no big wedding so it seemed. Mike's wife knew better of course, and argued with him for months about paying for the big day. She'd gotten a lavish wedding (thank you Mike) and didn't Mike know how important a wedding is to his future daughter? Yes this was his vacation money, yes after so many years of hard work he was finally going to get to go do something he always wanted (to see the Northern lights in Alaska). Yes he was going to finally get that Harley Davidson and ride up there after 35 years of no vacations at all. BUT This was going to be his daughter according to his wife and his kids HAD to come first.... So the girl got her wedding. Then his real daughter needed help with a house. Her new husband turned out not to be a copy of Mike after all but a thug with a criminal record who had just lost his job. Why did his daughter lie about this guy to Mike? Her wedding was very expensive too. Oh well it was too late now and his daughter did need a place to live and she just found out she was pregnant! He didn't have the money but his wife researched it and 2nd mortgages were so easy to get back then. True, his house after so many years of work was almost paid off but his grandchild needed a real home and there was no way his new son in law could afford it and Mike was told he could now work up to 10 hours more overtime if he wanted. 60 hours wasn't too much of a sacrifice and he'd at least get a leg up on that promotion, maybe.

 

Another decade passed and after scrimping and saving and even more hard work the mortgages were paid off. In a rare perfect storm both children (now well into there 30's with kids of their own) didn't need something. The mother in law didn't need a new appliance, or home repair, or another new car being long past her driving years. Yes, now, this was the time. Mike now 64, proudly strode into the Harley dealership and filled out a custom order sheet. In 8 weeks a shiny new Harley would arrive and he would get to ride it. He would finally take a vacation, his first real vacation since college. Sure his wife and kids had gone on many many vacations over the years but he always had stayed behind - to work. Something always came up. One time it was that there just wasn't money or neighbors to take care of - of all things - the dogs! 3 Lassa's that Mike never wanted yipping and shitting all over the place. Ugh... still at least his wife would get a vacation - she deserved it after all didn't she? There was even that one time (he hoped it was just the one time) where he found out his wife had hooked up with an old boyfriend when she said she was going to visit her mother. He forgave her of course a divorce would have devastated his kids (he knew they were his - or at least he hoped) and of course he'd have lost everything with the divorce laws - besides wasn't he a Christian? Shouldn't he just forgive and forget? What does his pride or even himself matter? He had never cheated on her or even been with another woman - not even once - but that was normal and he knew that she appreciated that didn't she?

 

The last big push before new years came at work and Mike was tired. His wife as always spent Christmas and new years with her mother - and he knew this time she really was with her mother – she was too old to cheat on him now wasn't she? When she got back he would be free of dog sitting and he would take his new Harley on the road for the first time. Shiny and red, he hadn't even ridden it yet. He read the owner’s manual 100 times and knew everything about it, he couldn't wait and it was all he talked about at work! It was brand new and kept in the garage but he stripped the engine and cleaned and oiled everything just to make sure! It was polished, waxed, and hospital clean. All was ready. His first ride on his HIS!! brand new Harley to see the Northern lights. It was the culmination of his life's work and now it was really going to happen. Mike was so excited.

 

On December 29th his daughter called and left an angry message on the tape machine. She wanted to visit but the snow was blocking the drive-way and she had her daughter and no snow shovel! Why the f**k hadn't Mike shoveled the driveway? He knew she was coming to visit that lazy good for nothing piece of crap. NOTE: the words she used were in reality more caustic than this - I have lightened them considerably.

 

On January 3rd his son came to visit and found his father cold and lifeless surrounded by a ring of dog shit. He'd had a massive stroke, likely from the diabetes, and the paramedics said they thought that he didn't suffer for long - but it was hard to tell. When Mike's wife returned later on she immediately made plans to sell the house. She raged that Mike hadn't left her enough life insurance and no instructions on what to do – what a irresponsible man what the hell was he thinking? He should have provided better for her especially since he knew she was too old to work! She was 62!!! Insurance was so expensive for someone in his condition but if he hadn't squandered *their* money on that stupid bike he could have afforded it. Her old boyfriend George was so much more successful – oh how she regretted not marrying him! The bike was listed on Ebay that week. "Never ridden Harley - brand new! $17,000 or best offer".

 

By every PC measure Mike's life was a success. He worked his whole life for someone else and doubtless made millions for his bosses over the course of his career. He took care of 3 people and two grandchildren that would have been on the dole if not for his efforts, and paid punitive taxes to take care of many more along the way. He never collected a dime of social security or unemployment even when he was laid off - he was just too proud to file. He never took Medicare and he made lots of profit for 2 large banks, 2 colleges, and never once thought of himself. He died cold and alone, surrounded by shit, never once having done anything for himself. His epitaph was a bike on Ebay - his life's dream - sold to a dealer for $15,500 - the best offer his widow could get several years ago. She took a cruise with the money. America thanks you Mike. You were a real success, and moreover a blueprint for what we expect a modern man to be. R.I.P.

 

----------------

 

That's a sad story, isn't it? I cannot add a thing, hence no commentary from me. Remember, Fealls, if you get married, THIS is what could happen to you! Tales like this make me glad that I'm unsuccessful with women. I'm serious! Ideally, marriage should be a little taste of Heaven on Earth. Unfortunately, it all too often ends up being Hell on Earth. Thanks to the reader who sent this sobering reminder and warning. Until next time...

Edited August 5, 2010 by Enishi

[宁]

That's a sad story, isn't it? I cannot add a thing, hence no commentary from me. Remember, Fealls, if you get married, THIS is what could happen to you! Tales like this make me glad that I'm unsuccessful with women. I'm serious! Ideally, marriage should be a little taste of Heaven on Earth. Unfortunately, it all too often ends up being Hell on Earth. Thanks to the reader who sent this sobering reminder and warning. Until next time...

 

Agreed, it's a sad story.

What if your wife would be supportive to you in your practice? And maybe practice together?

What if your kids would grow up being sensitive to energy and enjoying that?

What if each member of your family would practice his or her own routine, and enjoy the company on the way?

A spiritually secure place is Heaven on Earth. Love and passion cannot replace that.

As you can see, we as spiritual seekers are lonely. Why do we search company on spiritual forums?

There are many reasons for it, and many reasons against it.

Just enough of both to make YOU choose...

[mjjbecker]

Guy I worked with, recently married, died of cardiac arrest in June. The Sunday after we broke up for the summer holidays. He liked to smoke, have a few drinks and party ('I'm not ready to hang up my dancing shoes yet'). I remember him telling me he needed to get so many hours overtime or 'my wife will kill me'. Seems the cocktail of all the above did. I'm fairly sure he was not yet 40. His widow has nothing now as his family in Australia took his body back there two weeks later.

 

Moral of the story? I don't know but I think the persuit of money in order to fund a 'modern lifestyle' isn't bringing health and happiness to many people. I suspect queuing for the new iPhone 4 was not a postive life changing experience for most, though it was certainly a priority for hundreds of thousands of people recently. Sometimes it is difficult to think well of mankind, given the incredibly messed up priorities many seem to have.

 

Giving to those who are greedy and selfish is often a wasted gesture and doesn't seem to make them better people. Compromising in matters of love, i.e. taking whoever you can get once the opportunity arises will just end up leaving you unhappy (seen that on more than one occassion-the sensible ones got divorced rather than play the martyr). Spawning, and then pandering to, selfish children isn't doing anyone any favours. In matters of lifestyle, if you are planning on getting married, it pays to be with someone that has similar values to your own. If nothing else you can be selfish bastards together.

 

In life I think we can't always have what 'society' tells us we want. The media and advertising certainly do seem to lead some people along by the short and curlies. Despite all the 'wants' though, there are also choices. Try to make good ones. It's all a learning experience though, and everyone makes mistakes. Once made, try not to repeat them too often. That I think is the key.

 

(Cue Dobro blues slide guitar to play out the rambling old bugger that is me).

[Birch]

"It is like a feedback loop: through cultivation you loosen your attachments to buying things you don't need, and since you don't spend as much money,"

 

Heartily agree! The other neat thing about being a "taoist" is you get to wear black - always in fashion

 

Joking aside, why do many people buy all that stuff? An attempt to feel better IMO (and IME). Being a consumer wage-slave and producing more of them isn't what I'd suggest for myself as the best use of my life yet I have nothing against the people who decide to do that unless they get uber-critical with me for not doing it too. This IMO is where practice comes in handy as you can sure feel like an outcast when you don't do what is expected of ya

 

I found the above stories tragic and I hope they might be an extreme example In the motorbike story I also found the language skewed towards reductive terms (the "sluts" the "thug") saying everyone else apart from the "hero/victim" was the problem. I wonder why he didn't stand up for himself?

[Enishi]

I think that when many people are taught by their parents and society to "man up, act like an adult, good girls dont do that, etc" they are subtly being taught that their life is only really worthwhile if they are doing things for other people to "make" them happy and thus adopt a subconscious mentality of toxic self-shame.

[Birch]

"..subtly being taught that their life is only really worthwhile if they are doing things for other people to "make" them happy and thus adopt a subconscious mentality of toxic self-shame."

 

You're spot on! The big lie is that nothing you can do will "make" anyone happy and nothing anyone can do will "make" you happy. If you just adopt "happy" as an initial condition then it becomes pretty obvious. The secret smile is IMO a great example of this in action.

 

Variants of the control technique are "God requires it of you" and any other appeals to authority.

 

It's done to effect control (also called "socialization") of the human animal. But by the time you've figured it out and are really suffering it might be too late. The only way out IMO is unfortunately through the pain (i.e. the detox) and through our own fear of feeling our own power. The side-roads of "Love" and "positive thinking" are fine, but IMO (and short experience) there's no point building over a toxic foundation. So the ego needs to be shed because it's not "yours" to begin with.

 

Obviously, this is just my opinion...

[宁]

Stig's post reminded me that we left this discussion still pending...

Are 'daoists' the individiualistic type?

I would say so..

[TheJourney]

I hope I can find a way of supporting myself that i can enjoy. I will probably end up married, but only if I can truly find someone i feel a truly deep connection with.

Edited December 28, 2010 by TheJourney