sunshine Posted June 17, 2008 As it turns out I just can't find the time to read all the messages being written over the last few weeks. Still: It fascinates me that some of you enter into the discussion of "right and wrong" in spirituality. "Is this practice better than the other", "does this practice lead you further than the other" etc... often from places of seemingly full authority. If anyone of you feels an authority on the following I am curious to know: When entering the "void"... How do "you" FOR SURE know that it indeed is the void and not an illusionary one? very much looking forward to the answers Harry Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wayfarer64 Posted June 17, 2008 As it turns out I just can't find the time to read all the messages being written over the last few weeks. Still: It fascinates me that some of you enter into the discussion of "right and wrong" in spirituality. "Is this practice better than the other", "does this practice lead you further than the other" etc... often from places of seemingly full authority. If anyone of you feels an authority on the following I am curious to know: When entering the "void"... How do "you" FOR SURE know that it indeed is the void and not an illusionary one? very much looking forward to the answers Harry Just follow the signs and don't be afraid to ask for directions! _ it would be great if you could map-quest the void -but it seems to be off-line as a rule! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gendao Posted June 17, 2008 How do "you" FOR SURE know that it indeed is the void and not an illusionary one?How do you know you're not dreaming right now? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sheng zhen Posted June 18, 2008 As it turns out I just can't find the time to read all the messages being written over the last few weeks. Still: It fascinates me that some of you enter into the discussion of "right and wrong" in spirituality. "Is this practice better than the other", "does this practice lead you further than the other" etc... often from places of seemingly full authority. If anyone of you feels an authority on the following I am curious to know: When entering the "void"... How do "you" FOR SURE know that it indeed is the void and not an illusionary one? very much looking forward to the answers Harry This is such a bad question. It takes all the fun out of fun. But it is probably the MOST IMPORTANT question to ask in spiritual developent I ask myself this every day, during every meditation I do, and I never come up with a good answer. It seems to be illusion upon illusion upon illusion... For every illusion I break, I just go into another one. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Smile Posted June 18, 2008 How do you know you're not dreaming right now? I know because the Brain Fuckler told me so. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mwight Posted June 18, 2008 I know because the Brain Fuckler told me so. OMFG another babycakes fan on the bums... awesome... you might like saladfingers too Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doc benway Posted June 19, 2008 When entering the "void"... How do "you" FOR SURE know that it indeed is the void and not an illusionary one? very much looking forward to the answers Harry "You" can never know because "you" do not exist there... If "you" are there, it is illusion. Just my $.02. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Smile Posted June 20, 2008 OMFG another babycakes fan on the bums... awesome... you might like saladfingers too I think I got it from you. Saladfingers, you say? What other treasure are you hiding from me? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mwight Posted June 20, 2008 I think I got it from you. Saladfingers, you say? What other treasure are you hiding from me? http://www.fat-pie.com/salad.htm Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
joeblast Posted June 20, 2008 A very good question that was addressed in Nan Huai-Chin's Working Towards Enlightenment I'm too jetlagged to elaborate Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sunshine Posted June 24, 2008 Thankx so far girls and guys... and "joeblast": I very much hope the jetlag is over, you had a good time whereever you where, and that you find some time to elaborate... I want to extend my question: We know from M Winn that he once spoke of "having tracked ""some master"" in the spiritual planes"... Santiago (glad to have him here for several reasons) in another thread stated something similar to "I have done enough real dream yoga to know who Max is"... So. Looking for an answer for the reasons of security in the truth of those statements. Simple phaenomelogical philosophy tells us that most if not all is in the eyes of the observer... thereby its meaning, its structure etc. etc. etc. Why is what "you" see "true" and NOT infallible? What is the guiding line to indeed know one is right, sees things right, experiences the true as truth and not the false etc. etc. etc. Recently someone asked me why I do what I do. If I do not feel restricted by what I chose to practice etc. etc. etc. From all the earlier discussions I have realized there is only one answer I can give: That I feel drawn to it. So far though I have not found one good reason to "know for sure" that "this is it"... quite a few of you do I see not one possible good explanation for why that is, except that you either have a narcistic like component, a truly misdeveloped sense of being able to differentiate ... OR a infallible guideline just "feeling connected", "being able to do certain things", "being able to see certain things" can not be it, as many claim the same and still do not agree and just feeling, doing, seeing is no guarantee in itself that what you feel, do, see has any other than a subjective truth make me happy be giving me an infallible answer. Harry Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
宁 Posted June 24, 2008 (edited) what great meaning can it have, when you are not drawn to it? maybe it's the greatest state of awareness one can ever experience.... so what, if all that you need is coffee and biskits in the morning, and a warm converstation... or a quiet evening, by a burning fire... what if you wont like the void ? (i may have gotten a little far with it, i hope you get the point though) there are a lot of pending business we need to attend to, before the void, or enlightenment would REALLY be palatable to us. otherwise is just a thought. for example, the meditation part of your system, szg, is something that relates to practices belonging to kan and li level in UTS, which is not taught right away specifically because of the "pending business" i speak about. if they are not solved, you may seek enlightenment, when all you need to be really happy, would be something else, like a fresh donut, offered by your mother... well, maybe something else, you feel the blanks... it's only in our mind Edited June 24, 2008 by Little1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sunshine Posted June 25, 2008 >>it's only in our mind<< Do you really mean it, feel it, are it??? I feel a little the urge to enter a discussion on advantages of UTS and SZG... but I hold myself back. Yes. What we are drawn to seems to be the most important. But: How many people are drawn to things that seem most obstructive? I mean: if there is a way to get close to where we come from there seems to be a way to get further away from it... maybe it is necessary to get further away first in order to be able to fully get back... maybe. But how does the ball know it hit the hole? That is the question. And some seem to be so sure they have the infallible answer... quite a few here thankx man Harry Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sheng zhen Posted June 25, 2008 and just feeling, doing, seeing is no guarantee in itself that what you feel, do, see has any other than a subjective truth You ask so difficult questions!!! If we were to really an hounestly pounder that question we would have to doubt the sturcture of our whole reality, we would have to shake the ground and jump into nothingness and be totally and utterly alone in existence. I almost dont think it is possible because survival instinct is so strong that we instantly will make another subjective universe to land safely in. We jump from one illusion to the next. (oh no, this is the same answer I gave the last time ) I dont think anyone, with an ability to self-reflect, is able to say that what they see is pure objectivity and truth without any trace of subjectivity. But ofcource, without the ability to self-reflect, there is not other possibility than to believe that what you see is objectivity... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
宁 Posted June 25, 2008 well do hold yourself back for a while, give me time to get to K&L, maybe a couple of years... also, you need to get to szg, and maybe even "get" the gong going, before we talk the talk. although the formulas dont matter much, if you dont have someone to help you figure out what is BEHIND them. so, therefore, i lost my appetite for hunting down techniques. i have a friend who introduced me to szg, but due to the type of training my teachers is into, im not sure what to think about K&L, yet. it's a feeling, Harry, when you have it, you know. it's an easy pie for some fellows, but for us who doubt even the air we breathe, is not that easy, no? i know i dont have it, but i feel it must be something really simple, yet it evades me. im not in a hurry anyway. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ian Posted June 25, 2008 and just feeling, doing, seeing is no guarantee in itself that what you feel, do, see has any other than a subjective truth make me happy be giving me an infallible answer. Harry Infallible? Has to be subjective. Everything is subjective - objective doesn't exist. So subjectively, see if you move towards whatever it is you have decided is good. There is, objectively, no other test. At all. Just my subjective opinion. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
三江源 Posted June 25, 2008 (edited) . Edited April 20, 2015 by 三江源 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sunshine Posted July 6, 2008 and when continuing to read some of the other threads it continues that "masters" continue to tell the other "masters" how wrong they are You ask so difficult questions!!! I love them If we were to really an hounestly pounder that question we would have to doubt the sturcture of our whole reality, we would have to shake the ground and jump into nothingness and be totally and utterly alone in existence. I almost dont think it is possible because survival instinct is so strong that we instantly will make another subjective universe to land safely in. We jump from one illusion to the next. I get what you mean, but then isn't our search in vain??? I mean: if we start with the idea of jumping from one illusion to the next there seems to be about no hope of getting out of it... !?! I dont think anyone, with an ability to self-reflect, is able to say that what they see is pure objectivity and truth without any trace of subjectivity. But ofcource, without the ability to self-reflect, there is not other possibility than to believe that what you see is objectivity... My question in all this would be: how can it be possible to keep the subjective as obejective as possible? well do hold yourself back for a while, give me time to get to K&L, maybe a couple of years...also, you need to get to szg, and maybe even "get" the gong going, before we talk the talk. Yep. For the time being talk is not worth a penny as I still work on laying the foundation for the foundation. By the way: I am already there with SZG, but am far from what is meant to achieve it's a feeling, Harry, when you have it, you know.it's an easy pie for some fellows, but for us who doubt even the air we breathe, is not that easy, no? Yep. Those like us who doubt the air we breathe have quite some trouble, BUT: there are too many who claim to feel it and how much do they feel? If each illusion we walk through seems like it being IT we might run and run and run through the illusions aimlessly... At the end of the day I just have started wondering why so many of us claim to know thaaaaaaaaaaat much more than the others... and they continue to argue and argue. And they claim to KNOW, to TRULY KNOW. Is that pure inability to see their own limitations, do each of them actually are right, as there is no wrong, or... i know i dont have it, but i feel it must be something really simple, yet it evades me. im not in a hurry anyway. I have stopped hurrying either... life tends to give the timeline... Hello Harry! Nice to see you here, I have missed you. Smiles back sweet kitty. Life is quite busy. Started that clinic-job... but for several reasons said good-bye recently. Only two more monthes to go... then hopefully a good beginning with a private practice. Talking about my practice is of not much necessity at the moment. I am struggling with time constraints... Und Zoh, you are azkkink ze fundaMENTAL questions about 'Wot iz real?' Indeed I do Is this like "how do you know when you are in love?"... and so many people call infatuation/projection/dependancy 'love? If you say it likes this... yes. I think it is like this. but what if we are merely in a continuing delusion?So maybe, if you have too much personal 'junk' that you havent sorted out, you will fall for the fake and miss the genuine article. your spiritual life will have been bought on a market stall, out of a suitcase, and you didnt realise it was a knock off, because it shines so nicely. and you will spend a lot of time worshipping a piece of junk. apparently if you worship something fervently enough,for long enough, it becomes holy. Exactly what I am talking about. As you say: if you worship something fervently enough, for long enough, it becomes holy. Isn't that what most of us do? Harry Infallible? Has to be subjective. Everything is subjective - objective doesn't exist. So subjectively, see if you move towards whatever it is you have decided is good. There is, objectively, no other test. At all. Just my subjective opinion. Enjoying your subjective opinion... but if there is nothing objective how can there be something subjective? Harry Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
voidisyinyang Posted July 6, 2008 Harry -- this is from the first part of my masters thesis, "epicenters of justice" (2001) freely readable online as linked at http://nonduality.com/hempel.htm "The profound text Taoist Yoga states: Seeing the void as not empty is right and seeing the void as empty is wrong [as the West has done], for failure to return to the (tsu ch'iao) centre (which is not empty) prevents the light of vitality from manifesting...When spirit and vitality return to this cavity, spiritual vitality will soar up to form a circle (of light) which is not void. Voidness which does not radiate is relative but voidness which radiates is absolute. Absolute voidness is not empty like relative voidness.93" As it turns out I just can't find the time to read all the messages being written over the last few weeks. Still: It fascinates me that some of you enter into the discussion of "right and wrong" in spirituality. "Is this practice better than the other", "does this practice lead you further than the other" etc... often from places of seemingly full authority. If anyone of you feels an authority on the following I am curious to know: When entering the "void"... How do "you" FOR SURE know that it indeed is the void and not an illusionary one? very much looking forward to the answers Harry Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
