I Liq Chuan

[orb]

Hi all,

I ran into this video below by accident. I was curious if anybody was studying this style.

I think they call it I Liq Chuan. What got my attention was the fact that these guys supposedly participated in some external kung-fu competition (full contact with full gear on) and kicked ass. The guy in the video says they got 12 golden medals. Personally I'm very critical and disaproving of most of the internal martial arts but this one looks a lot better then what I've seen so far.

Also let me know if anybody needs translation. It's pretty interesting what they are saying....

 

 

 

[Ryan T.]

Personally I'm very critical and disaproving of most of the internal martial arts but this one looks a lot better then what I've seen so far.

 

I recognized several T'ai-Chi postures: brush knee(the first 30 seconds), fan through back, golden rooster stands on one leg, parting wild-horses mane. It is funny to me that people choose not to see what's hidden in the postures of the internal styles. They can be very powerful and effective if taught by a proper teacher to a willing student!

 

These guys definitely have a harder edge to them which, of course, is not the T-ai-Chi way. In some of the sequences it looks to me that they are doing some pieces of Liu Ho Pa Fa.

[orb]

I recognized several T'ai-Chi postures: brush knee(the first 30 seconds), fan through back, golden rooster stands on one leg, parting wild-horses mane. It is funny to me that people choose not to see what's hidden in the postures of the internal styles. They can be very powerful and effective if taught by a proper teacher to a willing student!

 

These guys definitely have a harder edge to them which, of course, is not the T-ai-Chi way. In some of the sequences it looks to me that they are doing some pieces of Liu Ho Pa Fa.

 

Well the guy says it's a "family style" and also that they don't study a specific form but rather learn how to adapt to any attack. Also one interesting thing that he says is that " even the fastest computer in the world that processes data and extreme speeds will not be ever able to be present....", "it can get very close to being present but never there never in reality...." and he says that's the practitioner's goal is to be completely in the moment... "that's the only way to access the energy...."

'

[doc benway]

I don't study this style but here's some info

http://www.iliqchuan.org/

[Andrei]

Also one interesting thing that he says is that " even the fastest computer in the world that processes data and extreme speeds will not be ever able to be present....", "it can get very close to being present but never there never in reality...." and he says that's the practitioner's goal is to be completely in the moment... "that's the only way to access the energy...."

'

 

 

Brains don't work like a computer. Brains process the information "holographic", while computers even the multiprocessor with the highest clock speed still use the sequential logic.

 

The secret of all internal martial arts is here: emptiness meditation (quiet mind) while body stays in martial postures for letting the brain process the sensory information.

 

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Edited June 22, 2008 by steam

[doc benway]

 

The secret of all internal martial arts is here: emptiness meditation (quiet mind) while body stays in martial postures for letting the brain process the sensory information.

 

Well said steam!

I'd like to add to that the additional dimension of quiet mind during slow movement maintaining presence of mind in movment, as in Taiji, Bagua, even Xingyi, and certainly Yi Quan. This is what is meant by finding stillness in movement and movement in stillness, I think. Also, sitting meditation is important as well. There are sitting meditation, standing meditation, and moving meditation - all three critical in internal development in my experience.

[bronzebow]

I've touched hands with a few I Liq Chuan guys and they were good. I practice tai chi myself but I have no doubt that I Liq Chuan is a lot more martially effective then a lot of tai chi out there. Out of the 4 guys I crossed hands each of them had a good ability of controlling the center at touch and by their own admission none of them was at a particularly high level in their school (between 2-4 years of experience).

[orb]

I've touched hands with a few I Liq Chuan guys and they were good. I practice tai chi myself but I have no doubt that I Liq Chuan is a lot more martially effective then a lot of tai chi out there. Out of the 4 guys I crossed hands each of them had a good ability of controlling the center at touch and by their own admission none of them was at a particularly high level in their school (between 2-4 years of experience).

 

That's what this guy is saying. First time he had crossed hands with the guy that became his teacher he got smth like a strong headache and the feeling that he is about to colapse - his first thought was that it's because of his jet lag as he had just gotten off this big plane trip, but when he stepped out of it - the feeling was gone and the whole thing repeated a few times. He claims that they learn how to completely feel and control the center of gravity of the opponent just but a slight move of their eyes. The part that I like the most is that they practice against real kickboxing techniques not just push hands...

[Wun Yuen Gong]

Its easy just put them in the cage and see how they go as the I Lik Kuen are based on the bridge and the teacher comes from Hakka styles similar to my Bak Mei system. You train bridge hands alot you can control many people but dont play there game throws a spanner in the works!

 

How good are they at ground and pound?

[bronzebow]

Its easy just put them in the cage and see how they go as the I Lik Kuen are based on the bridge and the teacher comes from Hakka styles similar to my Bak Mei system. You train bridge hands alot you can control many people but dont play there game throws a spanner in the works!

 

How good are they at ground and pound?

 

The guys I trained with could handle it when we were playing at a "light" to "medium" level "ground and pound", but anymore than that and their "structure" started to collapse as did their ability to control my center. In general though I haven't met any internal martial artists who can handle medium to heavy levels of "alive" ground and pound after only 4 years of training. I have met IMA practitioners of more than 10 years though who I've seen and felt handle mine and the best efforts of other players from BJJ, Vale Tudo, MT and Karate.

Edited June 23, 2008 by bronzebow

[orb]

I have met IMA practitioners of more than 10 years though who I've seen and felt handle mine and the best efforts of other players from BJJ, Vale Tudo, MT and Karate.

 

Do you remember which IMA did they belong to ?

Personally since I've never seen anybody from IMA being able to withstand an external MA attack I don't believe such a thing exists, but I'm very willing to check them out.

[JessOBrien]

Do you remember which IMA did they belong to ?

Personally since I've never seen anybody from IMA being able to withstand an external MA attack I don't believe such a thing exists, but I'm very willing to check them out.

 

Sam F. S. Chin is a highly accomplished practitioner of Buddhism, and his system of I Liq Chuan reflects that. They study awareness on a very deep level, which compliments the structure and nei gung training that they also have. Overall they have a wonderful system which has produced some competent fighters. An interview with Mr. Chin in my book "Nei Jia Quan, Second Edition" talks a lot about their training method and reveals a lot of insights that show some of the unique things about Chinese internal martial arts.

 

Orb, your statement strikes me as a very strange one. You seem to be saying that people who train MMA are invincible somehow? Have you ever trained with the likes of Sam Chin (ILQ), Luo De Xiu (BGA), He Jin Bao (BGZ), John Wang (SC), or others of high caliber in the world of Chinese martial arts? I think that might help you understand how Internal martial arts can be useful for fighting.

 

I've sparred with MMA trained people before. If I was better then I won. If they were better I lost. The beginners sucked like all beginners do. I used a Ba Gua kick to knock a MT guy down, but he'd trained less than a year. Does that mean MT sucks? I got punched and knocked on my ass by a MT guy with equal experience as me. Does that mean the IMA I trained sucked? I've been holding the pads and kicked by a MT fighter gearing up for a pro fight, it hurt like hell.

 

The point I'm making is, fighting a professional ring fighter of any style is an absurd proposition for any hobbyist like myself who trains an hour or two per day. I've accepted that fact that I will never beat Tank Abbot. However, I like to spar with guys who are at my level, and I don't always win. I've learned a lot from such sessions.

 

To say that no one who trains Chinese internal martial arts can withstand an "external" attack is a pretty silly generalization. It makes me think that you may not have been out and about a whole lot. If so, you might want to deepen your investigation a bit before you make such sweeping claims.

 

Sincerely,

Jess O'Brien

Oakland, CA

[Jesse]

Hey Jess

It's great to see you on taobums. I loved reading your book, both editions.

 

 

Jesse

[JessOBrien]

Hey Jess

It's great to see you on taobums. I loved reading your book, both editions.

Jesse

 

Thanks Jesse!

 

Looks like some nice discussions around here.

 

-Jess O

[Spectrum]

Another clue is slowing it down during his transitions, wuji and the rest of the taiji principles in fluid motiion and application. Really nice well rounded movement. Enjoy seeing the classical influences in contemporary application. Clean horizontal movement, 45's & 90's, counter rotational spiraling, looks like home base from the 19.50S exodus.

[mjjbecker]

..

Edited June 29, 2009 by mjjbecker

[orb]

I've sparred with MMA trained people before. If I was better then I won. If they were better I lost. The beginners sucked like all beginners do. I used a Ba Gua kick to knock a MT guy down, but he'd trained less than a year. Does that mean MT sucks? I got punched and knocked on my ass by a MT guy with equal experience as me. Does that mean the IMA I trained sucked? I've been holding the pads and kicked by a MT fighter gearing up for a pro fight, it hurt like hell.

 

The point I'm making is, fighting a professional ring fighter of any style is an absurd proposition for any hobbyist like myself who trains an hour or two per day. I've accepted that fact that I will never beat Tank Abbot. However, I like to spar with guys who are at my level, and I don't always win. I've learned a lot from such sessions.

 

To say that no one who trains Chinese internal martial arts can withstand an "external" attack is a pretty silly generalization. It makes me think that you may not have been out and about a whole lot. If so, you might want to deepen your investigation a bit before you make such sweeping claims.

 

Thx for your insight Jess and please don't take my comments as an intention to disrespect you or anybody else here on this forum. However I do have very strong opinions and I will stand by them until proven wrong. I am not afraid to admit when I am wrong either. I have not met any of the IMA masters that you have mentioned so I cannot say anything about them. I am talking from my own experience and the MA practitionners that I have met. Since you mentioned Tank Abbot - I know people that can beat him and none of them is from IMA. I know a lot of people that practice IMA and can't fight, but they are under the illusion that they can - however they never test themselves against a MT fighter or a boxer or what have you... They do this "push hands" thing for years and have no clue of the real speed in a real fight, and I know guys that practiced just boxing for 3 months and can ko every single member in some taiji schools that I know. I'm sorry but it's smth that I've witnessed a few times. Now the fact that you have tryied your Bagua skills vs a MT fighter is awesome. I am looking forward to meeting serious IMA fighters. Keep it up and thank you for sharing your experience with us.

[bronzebow]

Do you remember which IMA did they belong to ?

Personally since I've never seen anybody from IMA being able to withstand an external MA attack I don't believe such a thing exists, but I'm very willing to check them out.

 

I'd count the I Liq Chuan guys I mentioned as being well on their way to standing their own against EMA. As well as these guys I've met a few Tai Chi, Taikiken, Bagua, Xingyi practitioners who were very powerful. Chen Yingjun son of Chen Xiao Wang is pretty damn powerful, I'd buy popcorn to be there when someone says that he's ineffective. I'm told his dad is even more powerful and having felt the son in action I can imagine that this must be pretty fearsome power.

 

Also, after quite a few years of having a very low opinion of Aikido, I met two Aikido teachers in Australia who were able to neutralize repeatedly professional boxers/kickboxers such as Sam Soliman, Billy Manne and Richard Norton. Bob Jones who heads Zen Do Kai down here also trains with one of them as does a host of his teachers. Anyone who's been around the martial arts scene long enough down in Oz would know that Bob Jones has come from a hard and external way of MA and yet he's come over to learn from an IMA.

 

The way I witnessed these men be "convinced" was like this: The Aikido teacher just said: "do what ever you want." I saw attempts at take downs, boxing combos - whatever. These were the not the usual over committed lunge punches that you usually see in Aikido, but extremely centered and fast punches, kicks and submissions at a professional level. One of these kickboxers is reputed for having some of the fastest hands in the business and yet I repeatedly saw his center being taken at will by a person who seemed to move like he was out for a casual walk. I kid you not this Aikido teacher's technique looked kind of sloppy, but on crossing hands with him my root was gone so I couldn't generate any power. No matter what angle or disadvantage he let me put him in, no matter what I did my root was gone. He also personally said to me: "you've got to test me constantly otherwise you'll always have doubt, always try to get one on me, try anything you can. You're actually doing me a favor." I was never able to though. He always controlled my center at touch even if I grabbed him from behind or "unawares". To me this is internal MA.

 

I also met a guy who trained with a teacher called Minoru Akuzawa. From what I experienced there is some good stuff there too.

[orb]

The way I witnessed these men be "convinced" was like this: The Aikido teacher just said: "do what ever you want." I saw attempts at take downs, boxing combos - whatever. These were the not the usual over committed lunge punches that you usually see in Aikido, but extremely centered and fast punches, kicks and submissions at a professional level. One of these kickboxers is reputed for having some of the fastest hands in the business and yet I repeatedly saw his center being taken at will by a person who seemed to move like he was out for a casual walk. I kid you not this Aikido teacher's technique looked kind of sloppy, but on crossing hands with him my root was gone so I couldn't generate any power. No matter what angle or disadvantage he let me put him in, no matter what I did my root was gone. He also personally said to me: "you've got to test me constantly otherwise you'll always have doubt, always try to get one on me, try anything you can. You're actually doing me a favor." I was never able to though. He always controlled my center at touch even if I grabbed him from behind or "unawares". To me this is internal MA.

 

I also met a guy who trained with a teacher called Minoru Akuzawa. From what I experienced there is some good stuff there too.

 

That sounds really impressive....

[JessOBrien]

Hi Orb, thanks for your reply. Of course we all have our experience in life, and you can't be expected to know much about IMA if you haven't trained it a lot. It's a pity that there are people out there who are in a state a fantasy about their fighting skill. If you don't fight, you can't fight, it's that simple. The only way to get good at fighting is to do it against skilled fighters. People who live in a pretend world are sad to me and I don't hang out with them much, so I don't see a lot of that kind of thing. I would however like to point out that IMA people aren't the only ones with delusions of grandeur, and there are plenty of MMA bros who could use a reality check once in a while.

 

As for Tank Abbot I also know a number of people who would defeat Tank quite soundly in a sport match, but not IMA people. They all train a lot harder than I do. My point is that fighting professional athletes is not something that most of us in IMA or EMA are up for. We don't train at the level they do, so it couldn't be expected for us to fight with them, in regular life or in a sporting match.

 

This brings me to something I've thought a lot about that is pertinent to IMA training. Asian martial arts and fighting sports are two different things. Sports require intense athleticism, endless hardwork, heavy competition, constant fitness work, and a unstoppable drive to win. The final goal is to win the match, regardless of what it takes. Asian martial arts are a very different thing. Some are intense. Some are mellow. Some seek art of movement. Some seek energetic flows within the body. Some seek sport skills. Some seek healing. Asian martial arts has all of this within it and more. There is something for old grannies and hotheaded fighters. Asian martial arts are a HUGE topic of study and have almost endless variety. There are not generalizations to make, except that fighting of some kind is involved. Some IMA can be used for specific ring sports if trained properly. Most don't do that. IMA can be used to hurt people in real life. Most don't train it for that. Historically there have always been upper crust people training for fun and poor downtrodden training for gang and ring fighting. The spectrum of options within Asian martial arts is 1000X bigger than the sport fighting world. Because it's an art, not a sport. So the goals are different and the skills are used in different ways.

 

One of my teachers survived a three way war with Japan, Communism and the KMT. By the time it was over most of his family was killed, his country was overthrown and he was exiled, barely escaping with his life. He survived war, famine, disease and genocide levels of slaughter. And that was before he got thrown in prison for being in the wrong political party. He told me straight to my face that without Tai Chi he would have long been dead.

 

His statement led me to reflect on martial arts, sports and what Asian martial arts mean to us here in the west. All I can come up with is that we still have a lot to learn.

 

-Jess O