LSD, Mushrooms, and Yogis?

[sheng zhen]

Food is addictive, check out the psychoactive morphine peptide analogues in milk and grains. Sleep is addictive, so is sex, the more often you orgasm, the more often you crave orgasm. Whoever thinks that plant teachers are a crutch, should question whether their physical human teachers or the methods they teach are crutches, and if they think their teacher or their teacher's methods can take them beyond all attachments, I challenge them to give up the attachment of hunger, sleep, and sex vanquishing them for good, until they never again arise in their mind for even an instant.

 

Ayahuasca is not addictive. ha ha! The furthest thing from it. If you try it, you may never wish to try it ever again.

 

I will never disrespect Mother Ayahuasca. She is a loving teacher and potent healer! Im tremendously grateful for all the good work she has done and does in opening people to a deeper understanding of reality, in teaching the sacred healing songs of the plant spirits. I will honour always, Mother Pinoline, in whatever form she arrives.

Im not 100 % shure, but I dont think shamans take ayahuasca just to have a fancy esperience one weekend when they are bored. My guess is that they use the drug only when it is very needed to have a vision or something to help the tribe.

 

But when we take the drug it is to have a fancy experience. Im not attacking you Xienkula, Im only pointing to the fact that when it is used here in our modern world it is used as a drug. Something to give us a fun experience, something to surprise ourselves with, or to take us away from our reality for a little while. I have many friends who do it. All of them are completely amazed by the healing powers of the plant spirit. And all of them are trying to get me to do it. Just like I did when I started my lsd and mushroom rides. So, to me, ayahuasca looks like just another drug the way it is use around here.

Edited July 2, 2008 by sheng zhen

[rain]

Food is addictive, check out the psychoactive morphine peptide analogues in milk and grains. Sleep is addictive, so is sex, the more often you orgasm, the more often you crave orgasm. Whoever thinks that plant teachers are a crutch, should question whether their physical human teachers or the methods they teach are crutches, and if they think their teacher or their teacher's methods can take them beyond all attachments, I challenge them to give up the attachment of hunger, sleep, and sex vanquishing them for good, until they never again arise in their mind for even an instant.

 

Ayahuasca is not addictive. ha ha! The furthest thing from it. If you try it, you may never wish to try it ever again.

 

I will never disrespect Mother Ayahuasca. She is a loving teacher and potent healer! Im tremendously grateful for all the good work she has done and does in opening people to a deeper understanding of reality, in teaching the sacred healing songs of the plant spirits. I will honour always, Mother Pinoline, in whatever form she arrives.

 

so true that everything can trigger desire..but not everything is more than average addicitve..

most hallucinogens are not regarded as addictive but they are still on the "drug-list" why? because they may alter brainpatterns and hence alter your personality forever...ever.. ever.

 

[Xienkula1]

Im not 100 % shure, but I dont think shamans take ayahuasca just to have a fancy esperience one weekend when they are bored. My guess is that they use the drug only when it is very needed to have a vision or something to help the tribe.

 

But when we take the drug it is to have a fancy experience. Im not attacking you Xienkula, Im only pointing to the fact that when it is used here in our modern world it is used as a drug. Something to give us a fun experience, something to surprise ourselves with, or to take us away from our reality for a little while. I have many friends who do it. All of them are completely amazed by the healing powers of the plant spirit. And all of them are trying to get me to do it. Just like I did when I started my lsd and mushroom rides. So, to me, ayahuasca looks like just another drug the way it is use around here.

 

Yes, you are absolutely correct, it is certainly not to have a fancy trip and escape reality. Shamans take the medicine actually regularly, for quite some time, until after a few years, they rarely ever take it, and perhaps some never take it again, but they continue to brew it, to celebrate the spirit of the plant.

 

They share the medicine, but they reach a level in themselves which they have cultivated. Ayahuasca is not just a drink, just a molecule to take by yourself. It is a whole path unto itself. Not a cheap experience at the bottom of a glass or even a few.

 

You are absolutely correct that the things get disrespected, abused, misused and appropriated by clueless twinkie hippies and it is an unfortunate shame. I do not feel attacked, i just wanted to put my say in about how this plant can be a real guide and teacher. It's spirit is very pure.

 

It is not an experience that should be forced on anyone, or passed around causally like a joint, or for a weekend of fun with the narly shaman in town. It is so far beyond that, that it is shameful even dangerous to use the plant in this way. This is a sacred medicine, not a fun drug toy to be gulped lightly for new third eye whirly rainbows. And if you do so with such a gimme gimme attitude, it will kick your ass. You'll learn respect eventually, or destroy yourself.

 

You are absolutely correct that this is to be used only by the most sincere, and with guidance of a shaman, and used in the most sacred possible way.

 

 

Rain,

 

That is true, hullucinogens can potentially change a person, so can the experience of sex or getting drunk. That's why there is a legal age for those things

 

People should be free to alter their personalities, gernerally expressions of ego, as they will, as long as it is being done responsibly and with proper respect. If these substances are such a concern, every newborn babe should have their pineal glands amputated by law enforcement to confiscate the schedual 1 drugs.

 

Practices like spontaneous qi gong, meditation are believed to alter brain patterns permenantly, and thus personalities over time, should it be illegal for you to do your practice, because it will lead eventually to psychedelic spiritual experience without external drugs? You will still have illegal substances in your possession, so perhaps everyone who does these practices should be put in jail and tortured, if they persist in them.

Edited July 2, 2008 by Xienkula1

[rain]

you have and do your life Xi

 

just dont tell me that common sensus

and I am NOT saying common sense like sensible

is that there is a difference between bread, LSD and sex. yet.

but listen I am not there yet.

 

[Xienkula1]

you have and do your life Xi

 

just dont tell me that common sensus

and I am NOT saying common sense like sensible

is that there is a difference between bread, LSD and sex. yet.

but listen I am not there yet.

 

 

Yes and you too Rain

Im not reccomending anyone go out and do drugs, but I am not going to denigrate the cultures of those that do

as insensible. Even the Sapta Rishis of the North Star celebrated by imbibing the holy Soma. It is just different approaches. When you start manufacturing your own endogenous LSD, you will be there

 

http://deoxy.org/shamansci.htm

Edited July 3, 2008 by Xienkula1

[voidisyinyang]

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=long-t...magic-mushrooms

[rain]

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=long-t...magic-mushrooms

 

yes I co edited a book on e 11 yrs ago

Edited July 3, 2008 by rain

[Pranaman]

[.broken.]

[Sunya]

 

 

I wonder if the people out there that sacraments have hurt, were having psychadelic experiences, or actually had a disciplined ritual of entheogenic meditation.

 

Shamanism has been proven time and time again to be pure.

 

Would our mother nature entrap us in a false sense of spirituality? is that in her own nature to do so, and are there any other examples of this? Even opium is used by monks today, my buddy actually got back from Thailand, he was invited to even smoke opium with these monks.... They smoke it everyday.

 

 

Shamanism has been proven to be pure? what is pure?

if by pure you mean truth.. then maybe. depends what you mean by truth.

are the experiences true? yes, people have these experiences. is there something BEYOND the experiences? yes, so are they true? depends on what you're after.

 

shamanism deals with third eye psychic stuff. not saying you won't learn from it, but if you're after non-dual truth you won't find it in shamanism. its very much all about archetypes such as Mother Earth and spirits of the plants, this can become a roadblock if you don't move beyond it.

 

monotheism went beyond shamanism to suggest that there is only one reality, no separation. rarely will you ever find a Shaman who says that the spirit of a tree and his left shoe are of the same essence

[riverheron]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/mushrooms_odd_dc

 

This is a good and interesting topic, all . . . I just wish to add a few side-notes. Firstly, I have to cringe when I see people on the spiritual path refer to plant spirit medicines such as sacred mushrooms and ayahuasca as "drugs". The collective puritanical consciousness field is strong, and using the language of the those who wish our collective consciousness to remain unawakened and closed so that we may continue to play the role of batteries for their toys and war-games, only strengthens the control they seek to hold over our collective consciousness.

 

Speaking of stepping out of the dualistic mind-set, let's look deeper than "drugs are bad, they mess you up." It is all of the Dao . . . and in my humble experience, the plant spirit teachers have held my hand, directing my consciousness into the luminous realms of non-duality. They have also terrified me, when my ego was out of balance. Then they hugged me, because the highest message is; "It's Ok"

 

I have also had equally deep and transformative experiences in meditation with my daoist master, working only with the Universal Qi Field as the medicine. Whether it is breathing, visualizing, or ingesting a plant, we are working with medicine. Is one good, one bad? Who can say? For me, I have found that intentional, sacred use of mushrooms and ayahuasca (under the guidance of a true shaman), have indeed nourished the divine within me. All is a mirror . . . those who approach these teachers without respect and humility, will have difficult experiences. That is what it is about. The same as one who approaches an enlightened master with a self full of ego. The tea will spill over the rim and the seeker will get burned.

 

"Mushrooms played a vital role in early Taoism. Even before the emergence of religious Taoism, mushrooms were sought for their magical powers. Qin Shihuangdi (r. 221 - 210 B.C.) and Han Wudi ( 140 - 87 B.C.) both sent magicians (fangshi) in search of such funghi. Many adepts were said to live on mushrooms; for example, Pengzu, who lived to be over seven hundred years old, ate only mushrooms.

 

. . .

 

As Michel Strickmann has shown, the cult of magic mushrooms in China is ancient. Sima Qian's Records of the Historian states that mushrooms were believed to be among the sacred plants that grew on Penglai, one of the isles of the immortals in the Eastern Ocean. Since at least the Han dynasty, the appearance of strange and auspicious mushrooms has portended virtuous emperors.

 

The use of mushrooms that enable the adept to see the numinous world is common in many cultures. In the Six Dynasties period (420 - 589), as well, mushrooms (specifically "mushrooms that nourish the divine" or yangshen zhi) are mentioned as among the numinous plants growing on the isles of the immortals."

 

From "Taoism and the Arts of China", by Stephen Little with Shawn Eichman, page 340.

 

blessings and love Qi,

 

riverheron

Edited July 4, 2008 by riverheron

[松永道]

I'd say drugs are like a loan;

A boon you'll have to pay back.

 

To simply take them and waste them

will bring you into big time debt.

 

But to really use them as a teacher, helper, opener, expander,

these are investments.

 

Cannabis, alcohol, caffeine are all small loans,

LSD, mushrooms, ecstasy, are big big ones.

 

Use them frivolously and go into deep debt

or use them purposely, mindfully,

and you could end up in the black.

 

Could. In the end they are still a gamble.

[VCraigP]

I'd say drugs are like a loan;

A boon you'll have to pay back.

 

To simply take them and waste them

will bring you into big time debt.

 

But to really use them as a teacher, helper, opener, expander,

these are investments.

 

Cannabis, alcohol, caffeine are all small loans,

LSD, mushrooms, ecstasy, are big big ones.

 

Use them frivolously and go into deep debt

or use them purposely, mindfully,

and you could end up in the black.

 

Could. In the end they are still a gamble.

 

 

Song Yongdao

River Heron

 

Two brothers of my Shen family who I know by their real names. Do you know that you two have met in China? Qin in Xian anyone?

 

Much wisdom from both.

 

Many loans have I taken. Some investments have paid off in a big way, and continue to without further borrowing needed.

 

River Heron

continuing the interesting mushroom discussion from Cloud Mountain that I was only peripheral to. What a subject. Not easily dismissed. Something really deep there. Source of my first shamanic journeys before ever I encountered Taoism. Now returning full circle to Shamanistic Taoism.

 

But big dipper walking may be more powerful than all.

 

Sorry everyone else, feel like speaking in riddles to my brothers.

 

Craig

[sheng zhen]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/mushrooms_odd_dc

 

This is a good and interesting topic, all . . . I just wish to add a few side-notes. Firstly, I have to cringe when I see people on the spiritual path refer to plant spirit medicines such as sacred mushrooms and ayahuasca as "drugs". The collective puritanical consciousness field is strong, and using the language of the those who wish our collective consciousness to remain unawakened and closed so that we may continue to play the role of batteries for their toys and war-games, only strengthens the control they seek to hold over our collective consciousness.

 

Speaking of stepping out of the dualistic mind-set, let's look deeper than "drugs are bad, they mess you up." It is all of the Dao . . . and in my humble experience, the plant spirit teachers have held my hand, directing my consciousness into the luminous realms of non-duality. They have also terrified me, when my ego was out of balance. Then they hugged me, because the highest message is; "It's Ok"

Dude, the collective consciousness IS here. It dosent matter if I "wish" it to remain or if I "wish" it to awaken. It is still here. It dosent matter if I try to tell the collective consiousness that there is a teatcher and a very loving spirit in shamanistic hallusogenic plants either. The collective consiousness wont wake up because of that. Anything that is brought out into the collective consciousness will be corrupted. Good luck with waking it up!

 

If Ayahuasca was to stay within the secrets of amazonas shamans I wouldnt call it a drug but a great tool for shamanistic work. Its the way it is being used by people in the western society that makes it a drug. It dosent matter if the spirit is ever so pure and healing. If it is used as a drug it is a drug. Im shure Mother Ayahuasca isnt angry at me for saying this.

 

I remeber I said the exact same things about LSD and mushrooms when I was trippin. This is why I react to the "it is all the dao" and "respect the plant spirit" and "it is very helpful if you use it with respect" statements. I know why we say those things, and I also know how eaily we are fooled by ourselves. So I dont recommend any kind of hallusinogens to ANYONE. I wouldnt even hint towards when it might be useful because that would be up to your teacher to decide. And if your teacher is a good one it would be after years of preperation and cultivation.

[riverheron]

Anything that is brought out into the collective consciousness will be corrupted. Good luck with waking it up!

 

If Ayahuasca was to stay within the secrets of amazonas shamans I wouldnt call it a drug but a great tool for shamanistic work. Its the way it is being used by people in the western society that makes it a drug. It dosent matter if the spirit is ever so pure and healing. If it is used as a drug it is a drug. Im shure Mother Ayahuasca isnt angry at me for saying this.

 

 

Shen Zhen,

 

Thanks for your reply . . . since the collective consciousness is that which we all co-create together, is there not a need for us to consciously cultivate ourselves, as well as choose our language carefully, so as to have a positive effect on the whole of humanity? I'm sorry if you feel it is a lost cause . . . personally, I'm counting on and experiencing a shift and awakening on the collective level. There will be much chaos through it all, but that is the shock that brings change.

 

Regarding your view of Aya. . . actually, the jungle is sending the medicine, and the shamans, up to the 'western society' in an attempt to raise the consciousness of our sleeping society before we destroy the world with our excess yang. Her intention is not to stay within the secrets of the amazon, but to move through the minds and hearts of the people. It is a bit of a self-defense mechanism. I am sure that the medicine is not honored and is abused by some . . . but that is not the whole picture. I have only experienced her twice, both times with a very talented peruvian shamaness. Work with her is about initiation, healing, raising consciousness, and recognizing our collective universal tribe. It is the same work we are doing as we practice our daoist arts . . . all the same.

 

With respect to all paths ~

 

 

vCraigP, Song Yongdao ~

 

Hello my Qi brothers! What a small world it is . . . Thanks for your reflections, and I must agree that big dipper walking is at least as vibrationally enhancing as plant spirit medicine. Perhaps more-so because we are working with our innate inner medicine so deeply.

 

I too feel that I have come full circle into the chinese shamanic practice, and recognize that I would not have nearly as deep an understanding of what we are cultivating if not for my early plant spirit teachers. All are dancing together, and informing this One journey we are on together. When we look at the 'destination' as the great ocean, and the ten thousand rivers flowing into her . . . what a beautiful geometry we all form. I am glad to be on the path with ye.

 

Song, give my love qi to Xi'an and I'm glad to know you here.

 

peace,

 

riverheron

[sheng zhen]

Shen Zhen,

 

Thanks for your reply . . . since the collective consciousness is that which we all co-create together, is there not a need for us to consciously cultivate ourselves, as well as choose our language carefully, so as to have a positive effect on the whole of humanity? I'm sorry if you feel it is a lost cause . . . personally, I'm counting on and experiencing a shift and awakening on the collective level. There will be much chaos through it all, but that is the shock that brings change.

 

Regarding your view of Aya. . . actually, the jungle is sending the medicine, and the shamans, up to the 'western society' in an attempt to raise the consciousness of our sleeping society before we destroy the world with our excess yang. Her intention is not to stay within the secrets of the amazon, but to move through the minds and hearts of the people. It is a bit of a self-defense mechanism. I am sure that the medicine is not honored and is abused by some . . . but that is not the whole picture. I have only experienced her twice, both times with a very talented peruvian shamaness. Work with her is about initiation, healing, raising consciousness, and recognizing our collective universal tribe. It is the same work we are doing as we practice our daoist arts . . . all the same.

 

With respect to all paths ~

Hey riverheron. You have a very pleasant way of answering. I wish I could do it like that

 

If this shift happens, and I am here to experience it, I will eat my hat. I will even dip my hat in ayahuasca and then eat it. I will eat all my words that sound like pessimism too. If it happens in my next life, I will eat my hat then too

 

Thing is that there have been people waiting for this kind of shift for thousands of years. And everyone say it is just about to happen, now, soon. I am not one to stop people from shoving love and respect and make the world a better place. I just dont think the collective consiousness is much affected by meditating groups for world peace and things like that. It has a life on its own. We are just small pieces of the puzzle. A puzzle that goes on as it wishes, with or without us.

 

Human beings have a tendency to think they are on top of the world, above nature, masters of nature. While in reality we are just puppets of the movements of the universe. Gaia is not a weak being. In the eons earth has existed it has had its ups and downs. One human life-time is just an invisible puff compared to Gaias own evolution. But we get a lot of illusions going on to make us feel special and important in the big scheme of things. Ego would die if we didnt feel special.

 

If you raise up to a position of a world company leader or someone in a position to change the profile of how industry uses the resources of the world, I will believe you!!! But if you are a young man doing ayahuasca in the weekends having deep philosophical conversations and insights with friends, I dont think what you do has any effect on the collective consciousness.

 

We dont need ayahuasca, or other hallucinogens, to feel love, heal or take responsibility for our life and our surroundings.

[Xienkula1]

http://www.mndaily.com/articles/2003/05/08/5951 Edited July 4, 2008 by Xienkula1

[sheng zhen]

http://www.mndaily.com/articles/2003/05/08/5951

yea yea... http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/medical-marijuana/GA00014

 

Even LSD was used to treat psychological diseases. Hah, thats irony! Extacy was used to reduce weight goddammit. We get new drugs all the time. In denmark there is a coughing medicine people have discovered gives euphoria, so all these young drug addicts by it all the time. They are working to classify it as a drug now.

[Xienkula1]

Edited July 4, 2008 by Xienkula1

[Sunya]

 

Speaking of stepping out of the dualistic mind-set, let's look deeper than "drugs are bad, they mess you up." It is all of the Dao . . .

 

dog shit is also the Dao, but that doens't mean you'll benefit from eating it. you have free will and intelligence, use it.

[riverheron]

dog shit is also the Dao, but that doens't mean you'll benefit from eating it. you have free will and intelligence, use it.

 

I do, my friend . . . I do. Any other thoughts on the subject?

 

with respect,

Edited July 5, 2008 by riverheron

[.broken.]

http://www.mndaily.com/articles/2003/05/08/5951

 

and... http://technology.newscientist.com/article/mg18524881.400

[Sunya]

[riverheron]

http://www.internetyoga.com/spiritCannibal...ritualwork.html

 

Well, Swami Rudrananda makes some good points in the quote you shared with us (thanks for the input!) I have to say that reading through the rest of his writings from the link you shared made my chest tighten and my spirit constrict, even though every now and then I thought he was right on. My browser counted 188 counts of the use of the word "Must", which never really works for me as a teaching style.

 

I suppose that is why I am a wayward daoist who enjoys an occasional beer and eats chicken, and not a pure, white wearing kundalini yogi. Honestly, I honor the path that Swami proposes and walks as being perfect for those who are karmically drawn to follow it. Just because it is not for me, does not make it wrong or bad. Similar to the topic at issue, the sacred and ritual use of plant spirit medicine as an aid to spiritual cultivation. True, working with the plants alone would not, to me, feel like a complete path. Daily cultivation and sore limbs is the way for me, with a periodic check-in with the Gaian plant consciousness and frequent immersion into the Yijing.

 

To each their path, their Way, and their wandering . . . and not all who wander are lost. . .

 

in peace,

[Seth Ananda]

Fascinating Topic. I thought I'd add my own experiences. When i was younger I experimented with a variety of substances: Aminita Muscaria, psilocybin, lsd, E, mescalin, salvia divinorum, and Dmt smoked and injested.

I also meditated and practiced a wide range of mysticisms techniques. In my opinion no drug of any kind can even closely aproximate the depth and range of mystical experience, but am i anti drugs? no.

drugs can open a door or at least oil its hinges. I always took drugs in a sacred ritualized space, away from party scenes. I think for me very few were of much value more than once or twice.

Dmt smoked I am very suspicious of as many friends when the dmt hype started ("man its what happens in your brain man when you die...") smoked it regularly ("man its natrual, the brain knows how to deal with it cause its already in there man..."). Needless to say they stirfryed them selves slowly. It was a painfull process to watch. They couldnt see it happening either as i guess you have to be looking from outside to see a process clearly.

Ahyehesca though for some reason is different (for me) I think, because its the only thing ive taken that is truly a medicine in that it really heals. it has no come down, it leaves my body fresh and energized, my kidney chi feels like its had a top up, and any internal leaps i make on it, i keep. They dont fade out over the comedown or in the next few days. ive experienced several years worth of permanent emotional healing over a couple of hours with Mother Ahyehesca. She is a loving being and the only drug/medicine id consider taking again.

that may just be my make up, someone else may have these results from shrooms or peyote, I can only speak for myself.

Kundalini and deep mystical experience still have taken me thousands of times further and felt thousands of times better full stop. We are the perfect alchemical lab for ourselves.

Seth.

Sat Chit Anand