Why Taoism is different

[exorcist_1699]

The existence of a much bigger , everlasting Mind outside us , in the universe , or even as the Creator of this universe , is the common belief of most of the religions . However, only Taoism explains it in the context of the jing- qi -shen framework . Because of such an explanation and practice ,and , because all those elements mentioned are inside us , as the most basic elements of our existence ,it makes the climbing of a small, humble

individual ,step by step , onto the Heaven , becoming part of this bigger Mind itself possible .

 

Without it , the external Mind/God is always something super, beyond our reach .

 

The recognition of such jing-qi-shen framework is also the criterion which differentiates Taoism from

Buddhism , and other religions /philosophies.

[seadog]

Actually trilogy are quite a common agreement amongst those with mystical leanings.Father, Son, Holy ghost.

Brahama,vishnu,shiva etc etc.

[Patrick Brown]

Sacred Geometry (this is rare):

 

On Google: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2678677817969925095

 

Download here: http://www.esnips.com/doc/66b6ba38-e112-46...olden-section_2

[exorcist_1699]

Yeah, you can call the jing-qi-shen framework as Taoist Trinity. However, it is not any kind of theological framework, but the guideline describes so well ,so clear-cut every step of our practice that , the Taoist masters, after having proposed it , were so scared of the result, desparately had to mix it up with strange jargons such as "tiger", "dragon","rabbit" , "baby" ....

Edited June 30, 2008 by exorcist_1699

[Taomeow]

Yeah, you can call the jing-qi-shen framework as Taoist Trinity. However, it is not any kind of theological framework, but the guideline describes so well ,so clear-cut every step of our practice that , the Taoist masters, after having proposed it , were so scared of the result, desparately had to mix it up with strange jargons such as "tiger", "dragon","rabbit" , "baby" ....

...almost as strange indeed as modern physicists using such officially scientific terms for the behavior of some particles as "strangeness" and "charm" (I kid you not), or describing "strings" (which don't seem to be any more visible than "dragons") as "made essentially of a kind of bubble gum" (I kid you not again), or using any number of made-up words that don't mean anything until they are invented as labels for some phenomena we need to name "something" --

phenomena, furthermore, of which most are not observable at all, whose existence is theorized only on the basis of their impact on something scientists CAN observe ("neutrinos" are not observable, only their behavior is, to an extent); while others are not only not observable, but not even discernible in their effects and are pure speculation on top of being named a made-up name ("quarks").

 

Taoism is different from the rest of them all in that it is, first and foremost, a science. Don't let "strange names" for "strange phenomena" which "may or may not exist" fool you. It is a science of the superior kind, the one that doesn't take the observer out of the phenomena observed, thereby avoiding a false postulate of "objectivity" our own science rests on -- as though the scientist isn't there, doesn't matter, doesn't skew the outcome, interpretation, application of phenomena under observation by his or her being smack in the middle of them. The extent of unreality that allows for our science to have some auxiliary universe on the side, unaccounted for, where all the scientists purportedly go so as to objectify themselves, take themselves out of the universe they are observing so as to draw 'objective' conclusions about it, is mind-boggling. Taoist sciences were never make-believe to this extent, never played this let's-pretend-I'm-not-here game our own scientific games are based on. They never attempted any science that is only true to the extent the scientist himself doesn't count as part of what's going on.

 

It is for a very good reason that Niels Bohr chose the taiji symbol for his coat-of-arms when he was knighted.

Edited June 30, 2008 by Taomeow

[doc benway]

Taoism is different from the rest of them all in that it is, first and foremost, a science.

I don't know about different from the rest in that regard... Buddhism is a science as well.

I'm not Buddhist but I've had enough in depth discussions with Buddhists and read enough to know that their approach is very scientific in a way quite analogous to Daoism. Although the Buddhists seem to be more concerned with human emotion than the Daoists.

 

It is a science of the superior kind, the one that doesn't take the observer out of the phenomena observed, thereby avoiding a false postulate of "objectivity" our own science rests on -- as though the scientist isn't there, doesn't matter, doesn't skew the outcome, interpretation, application of phenomena under observation by his or her being smack in the middle of them.

Our scientists have accepted this reality since Heisenberg - nearly 100 years...

One major difference is that the science of Daoism accepts first hand, 'subjective' experience that is not independently verifiable whereas 'Western science' prefers 'objective' measurements that are as reproducible among multiple observers as possible. I'm not supporting one or the other. I have a foot in each camp. Both have a role in their respective realms.

 

It is for a very good reason that Niels Bohr chose the taiji symbol for his coat-of-arms when he was knighted.

That's a very cool bit of trivia - I didn't know that.

Thanks!

 

The whole idea of Daoism being different is an interesting one to explore.

Is it really that different?

Aren't all religions and philosophies basically the same?

They are the action of human thought attempting to investigate and explain that which is beyond comprehension and explanation. All systems are creations of human thought and experience - that's it.

Sure, they have different methods and approaches but they are all still limited to the arena of human thought and experience. Why is jing/qi/shen different from prana, tantra, ohm, "who am I", Kabbala and so forth?

[Taomeow]

It's very different from all Indo-European modalities, including buddhism, and it's very similar to all shamanic/pagan modalities, in that it is not paternalistic, hierarchical, creationist, or escapist. I could tackle each postulate separately, or I could present the practical outcome. The former would be a long digression, so I'll limit myself to the latter.

 

The practical outcome is that Chinese civilization's main accomplishment (give or take a couple centuries of externally fabricated meddling that muddied the waters for a while here and there -- but six thousand years is six thousand years, what's a couple centuries?.. even if they happen to be now?.. this, too, shal pass...) --

 

its main accomplishment has been mastering the art of living and deriving enjoyment from life: nature, health, family, friendships, food, work, play, the arts, the sciences, humanity. It is humane, human-affirming. It is about life, not about afterlife, it is about "yes" to being human, not "no." That's the conceptual difference that, to me, makes all the difference in the world, despite whatever similarities in whatever approaches, practices, even conclusions. Similarities are skin-deep, the core of taoism is humane, and the core of Indo-European modalities is anti-human. Makes one wonder who really originated this and what exactly for. That they've succeeded in teaching people to despise and deny the human life as a prerequisite for venturing into things "spiritual" is doubtless. But not all people. Not the hardened, incorrigible, other-influences-deflecting taoists anyway.

Edited June 30, 2008 by Taomeow

[林愛偉]

The existence of a much bigger , everlasting Mind outside us , in the universe , or even as the Creator of this universe , is the common belief of most of the religions . However, only Taoism explains it in the context of the jing- qi -shen framework . Because of such an explanation and practice ,and , because all those elements mentioned are inside us , as the most basic elements of our existence ,it makes the climbing of a small, humble

individual ,step by step , onto the Heaven , becoming part of this bigger Mind itself possible .

 

Without it , the external Mind/God is always something super, beyond our reach .

 

The recognition of such jing-qi-shen framework is also the criterion which differentiates Taoism from

Buddhism , and other religions /philosophies.

 

 

Buddhism's Jing Qi Shen is simple:

 

Precepts, Samadhi and Wisdom.

 

Precepts cultivate the Jing, store the yuan qi from wasting( wasting through day-dreaming,false thinking basically sexual indulgence to extremes, and controlling desires through understanding their origin.).

 

Samadhi transforms such jing to Qi, through concentration and cultivation of the mind and body; By the not wasting of one's essence, they will hav the strength and will to uphold the states through concentration. This will naturally transform one's mind: Jing, Qi.

 

Wisdom is the outcome of purifying the heart and mind through seeing that all desires, emotions and views are actually false (it would be seen as an outcome of attaining true wisdom), thus leading to a vibrant body, resulting in a long life, as well as attaining true spiritual wisdom, unaltered wisdom.

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

 

 

P.S.- Daoism, seen as different doesn't make you more Immortal, or having more abilities. In views of separation, ego arises, views of ego, a self, living beings, and a life span...thus leading to arrogance, anger, greed and ignorance.

 

Buddhism cultivates the Buddha in the Heart, which results in attaining Buddhahood, which is complete in wisdom, and spiritual abilities. And is definetly not what most people ASSUME it is.

 

Daoism cultivates the Dan Tian; to attain immortality and eventually attain enlightenment. The problem is, there is less focus on virtue and moral practice in "Modern" Daoism, and more focus on spiritual abilities and longevity, which doesn't lead one to enlightenment right away../actually it slows one down.

 

The fact is, if the mind is pure, everything is pure. Attaching to views only caises more afflictions. THat is not true cultivation of the Way.

 

All of the Qigong and Neigong and Spiritual abilities will do no good if one still has ignorance as their friend, greed as the father and anger as the mother. One will only remain ignorant, and stuck in their own conditions.

 

Basically, upholding the view of differences only causes more arguing in the long run, views of arrogance, and self, ego. Its not worth it. It doesn't make one a better cultivator.

 

Instead, look at the similarities, and how they actually speak very similar teachings to an extent. This way, more people will want to learn about them, and begin a proper foundation of Educational Cultivation.

If all people see is bickering about which is better, then they will only remain confused, and become arrogant fools.

 

If one can not tell, through wisdom mind, the differences of expedients as expedients, then they should not comment frivolously about expedients. It only creates more karma of the mouth and mind... not fun.

 

As such, living beings will only understand as much as they have the capacity for.

 

Peace,

Lin

 

*** I had added one word to the 3rd paragraph after the "P.S." I put it in quotations: "Modern"

Edited July 1, 2008 by 林愛偉

[mat black]

Here's a taoist principle: undiscriminating virtue

i dunno, it's strange that it appears to be a very much overlooked element of taoist teaching, and yet to me, it seems to be the most important.

 

 

"If you wish to gain merit and become one with the divine, then develop your virtue and extend it to the world.

Let go of all conflict and strife.

Practice unswerving kindness and unending patience. Avoid following impulses and pursuing ambitions which destroy the wholness of your mind.

Neither become obsessed with circumstances, nor forego awareness of them.

To manage the mind, know that there is nothing, and relinquish all attchment."

 

"the first practice is the practice of undiscriminating virtue (being kind to everyone without partiality), just as high awareness of the subtle truth is gained through virtuous conduct and sustaining disciplines, so also is it maintained through these things"

"live a quiet and simple life feree of ideas and concepts. find contentment in undiscriminating virtue - the only true power. giving to others selflessly and anonymously, radiating light in all directions."

 

Wouldn't such a person be a man/woman of Tao?

Edited June 30, 2008 by mat black

[mYTHmAKER]

In the latest issue if T'AI CHI magazine there is a reprint ( June 1989)

from an interview with Ni Hua Ching

 

In the article he says:

"Religion usually promotes intoxication, an emotional religious intoxication

that causes people to block out rational development and fail to know the true

power of the life of the world. But in the teachings of Taoism, it's totally different.

It promotes spiritual sobriety, not intoxication."

[neo]

Buddhism's Jing Qi Shen is simple:

 

Precepts, Samadhi and Wisdom.

 

Precepts cultivate the Jing, store the yuan qi from wasting( wasting through day-dreaming,false thinking basically sexual indulgence to extremes, and controlling desires through understanding their origin.).

 

Samadhi transforms such jing to Qi, through concentration and cultivation of the mind and body; By the not wasting of one's essence, they will hav the strength and will to uphold the states through concentration. This will naturally transform one's mind: Jing, Qi.

 

Wisdom is the outcome of purifying the heart and mind through seeing that all desires, emotions and views are actually false (it would be seen as an outcome of attaining true wisdom), thus leading to a vibrant body, resulting in a long life, as well as attaining true spiritual wisdom, unaltered wisdom.

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

 

 

P.S.- Daoism, seen as different doesn't make you more Immortal, or having more abilities. In views of separation, ego arises, views of ego, a self, living beings, and a life span...thus leading to arrogance, anger, greed and ignorance.

 

Buddhism cultivates the Buddha in the Heart, which results in attaining Buddhahood, which is complete in wisdom, and spiritual abilities. And is definetly not what most people ASSUME it is.

 

Daoism cultivates the Dan Tian; to attain immortality and eventually attain enlightenment. The problem is, there is less focus on virtue and moral practice in Daoism, and more focus on spiritual abilities and longevity, which doesn't lead one to enlightenment right away../actually it slows one down.

 

The fact is, if the mind is pure, everything is pure. Attaching to views only caises more afflictions. THat is not true cultivation of the Way.

 

All of the Qigong and Neigong and Spiritual abilities will do no good if one still has ignorance as their friend, greed as the father and anger as the mother. One will only remain ignorant, and stuck in their own conditions.

 

Basically, upholding the view of differences only causes more arguing in the long run, views of arrogance, and self, ego. Its not worth it. It doesn't make one a better cultivator.

 

Instead, look at the similarities, and how they actually speak very similar teachings to an extent. This way, more people will want to learn about them, and begin a proper foundation of Educational Cultivation.

If all people see is bickering about which is better, then they will only remain confused, and become arrogant fools.

 

If one can not tell, through wisdom mind, the differences of expedients as expedients, then they should not comment frivolously about expedients. It only creates more karma of the mouth and mind... not fun.

 

As such, living beings will only understand as much as they have the capacity for.

 

Peace,

Lin

*bows head in acknowledgment*

thank you

[Sunya]

*bows head in acknowledgment*

thank you

 

indeed looking for differences and viewing ones own chosen tradition as 'superior' is just the play of ego. superior? no. more applicable for you? sure!

 

oh and did Lao tzu or Chuang Tzu ever speak of jing-qi-shen? not that i know of.. all of this is neo-taoist i believe. could be wrong on this.

[exorcist_1699]

Never can I agree that Taoism is a science unless you have a very broad definition of the term "science" , for example , "anything in search of truth.."

 

We have to admit that Science and Taoism , they adopt totally different spiritual skills and use different means ; in case of science, it requests clear definition of terms , relies on our senses to collect data , uses apparatus to measure precisely , summarize into mathematical formulates , follows statistic principles..etc;

 

In the case of Taoist practice : delicate intuition,no reasoning (at least at that moment ) ; using our body as a means( because jing and qi are there ) , direct manipulating of qi inside our body , then outside our body..

 

Science 's achievement is great, it gives us a lot of daily, physical conveniences and spiritual pleasure , however, from the standpoint of an individual, do you think it gives us the grasp of our destiny in our hands and real unity with the universe (real ,direct unity , not those philosophical bullshits) ?

 

Maybe talking about unity with the universe seems something too big, let us consider something trivial and humble : For example, for most of the people, they even can't get rid of a cold caught, let alone having their destiny grasped in their own hands .

 

To those who criticize the so-called Neo-taoism, those who are unable to comprehend that the jing-qi-shen framework is the continuation of Lao Tzu's thought, Taoist heritage , I only want to say : If we are incapable of getting rid of small disease like a cold ourselves, the claim of grasping our destiny in our hands , or other big words ,are just some kinds of philosophical bullshits , even though they are spoken by Lao Tzu or Chuang Tzu.

Edited July 1, 2008 by exorcist_1699

[林愛偉]

Well, getting a cold, and not getting rid of it is one's destiny in either case...whether they can get rid of it or not, is also based their capacity to change their own mind:

 

Its fairly easy to change ones destiny... people look too much on the outside..when they only have to work on changing their own character, thoughts and behavior.

 

Whether big or small, philosophy is no good unless the person cultivating it can understand it. Their own capacity for things allows them to mis-understand, or understand.

 

 

Science which consists of assisting the development of virtue, moral and humanity, is a good science. The sciences which degrade humanity, degrade nature, and cause suffering.. not good.

 

Good science can only be bad when the mind applying it has no proper conduct, no virtue. Bad sciences will never be used in either case.

 

Peace,

Lin

[de_paradise]

Buddhism's Jing Qi Shen is simple:

 

 

 

Samadhi transforms such jing to Qi, through concentration and cultivation of the mind and body; By the not wasting of one's essence, they will hav the strength and will to uphold the states through concentration. This will naturally transform one's mind: Jing, Qi.

 

Lin

 

 

How does Samadhi transform jing into qi. How does cultivation of the mind bring about these endocrine system refinements? I understand the idea, but how to explain the process so it doesnt sound like an assertion?

 

Thanks

[林愛偉]

How does Samadhi transform jing into qi. How does cultivation of the mind bring about these endocrine system refinements? I understand the idea, but how to explain the process so it doesnt sound like an assertion?

 

Thanks

 

 

When the heart/mind is without discriminations, the afflictions of the body and mind thus "melt" away.

As a result, this deep state of concentration transforms the body; which means the energy of the body

transforms/changes.

 

In concentration, without movement of the mind, the energy can vibrate at higher levels. Such transformations as jing to qi, qi to shen, and shen replacing weaknesses of the body take place naturally.

 

When the mind moves, energy is wasted through the senses, and thus results in taking a longer time to purposely complete the San HUa Jv Ding: Transformations of Jing to Qi, QI to Shen, and Replacing weakness with Shen...

 

Jing hua Qi. Qi Hua Shen, Shen Huan Xu... Then the Shen rises to the crown blooming a wonderful lotus at the top of the head. San Hua Jv Ding (Three Flowers meet at the Top.)

 

It hasn't really been spoken in this sense too much because the process happens naturally. This is why Buddhist cultivation doesn't focus too much on the processes of Qi transformation, but puts more focus on clearing afflictions of the mind in order to let these processes happen as they naturally do.

 

The Precepts guard the mind from causing more afflictions, thus guard the mind and body from leaking/wasting energy. Samadhi develops concentration power, which in return, as one of its outcomes, allows the natural processes of mind transformation to occur, thus also transforming the energy and body. Wisdom, as one result, allows one to understand such processes if need be, as well as realize the relation with all things of mind, and the difference of such. As well, wisdom allows one to realize what the body is, what afflictions of the mind are and their origin of arising, and how to put them down without repression.

 

These things are outcomes of cultivation in the Buddhist school. They happen naturally, so this is why many Buddhists do not pay attention to the changes. As paying attention to the states and changes adds the possibilities of attaching to them.

 

Though this is a brief explanation, I am open to explaining further if need be. Just bring the questions, or I will be here writing for a long, long, long time..

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

Edited July 1, 2008 by 林愛偉

[林愛偉]

indeed looking for differences and viewing ones own chosen tradition as 'superior' is just the play of ego. superior? no. more applicable for you? sure!

 

oh and did Lao tzu or Chuang Tzu ever speak of jing-qi-shen? not that i know of.. all of this is neo-taoist i believe. could be wrong on this.

 

The "Jing, Qi, Shen" cultivation appeared because of the lack of explanation of states appearing through meditation. The elders put these terms together to explain the process of what naturally happens with proper cultivation.

 

Peace,

Lin

[witch]

I am throwing all my efforts into becoming material as possible and enflaming the passions. Personally I think spirituality, purity and longevity are overrated!

[xenolith]

I am throwing all my efforts into becoming material as possible and enflaming the passions. Personally I think spirituality, purity and longevity are overrated!

As once did Siddhartha. May you also come to understand what he did.

[Sunya]

I am throwing all my efforts into becoming material as possible and enflaming the passions. Personally I think spirituality, purity and longevity are overrated!

 

 

watch the movie Samsara, its about a monk who realizes that being celibate isn't the answer.. you have to experience samsara to truly understand it. but then a teaching comes to him "is it better to satisfy 1000 desires or conquer just one?" he was so enveloped in desire that it grew more and more, soon greed came upon him.. he even cheated on his wife. he becomes aware of this and truly realizes the meaning of the teachings through experience. that is why it is called the wheel of samsara, its a circle.. it never ends once you step inside of it. the desire is never quenched, the wheel never stops moving, the suffering never ends.

Edited July 1, 2008 by mikaelz

[witch]

There is no suffering in my desire, only pleasure.

[Xienkula1]

Here's a taoist principle: undiscriminating virtue

i dunno, it's strange that it appears to be a very much overlooked element of taoist teaching, and yet to me, it seems to be the most important.

"If you wish to gain merit and become one with the divine, then develop your virtue and extend it to the world.

Let go of all conflict and strife.

Practice unswerving kindness and unending patience. Avoid following impulses and pursuing ambitions which destroy the wholness of your mind.

Neither become obsessed with circumstances, nor forego awareness of them.

To manage the mind, know that there is nothing, and relinquish all attchment."

 

"the first practice is the practice of undiscriminating virtue (being kind to everyone without partiality), just as high awareness of the subtle truth is gained through virtuous conduct and sustaining disciplines, so also is it maintained through these things"

"live a quiet and simple life feree of ideas and concepts. find contentment in undiscriminating virtue - the only true power. giving to others selflessly and anonymously, radiating light in all directions."

 

Wouldn't such a person be a man/woman of Tao?

 

Thanks for this it provides some excellent insight, and something I have been contemplating recently how to bring more of into my life authentically.

 

Vallar promotes a very similar principle of undiscriminating virtue. He says only when you have melted your soul in compassionate actions, only then does divine grace manifest. He says:

 

http://www.vallalar.org/WebComponents/Fron...d=1&ConId=5

Edited July 1, 2008 by Xienkula1

[witch]

I love darkness and illusion. And Maya.

[Taomeow]

I am throwing all my efforts into becoming material as possible and enflaming the passions. Personally I think spirituality, purity and longevity are overrated!

 

Zoroastrianism (the religion of ancient Persia) postulates a world based on a duality of spirit and matter which is the reverse of what we're used to. In their cosmology, matter is the absolute good, and spirit is the source of all things evil. The material world is called Truth; the spiritual world is called The Lie. Interestingly, all beings, including their supreme deity, have free will to choose one or the other. The almighty of their pantheon, upon some pondering, chooses Truth; while his evil twin, the spiritual one, chooses The Lie.

 

Smart guys, those ancient Persians!

 

Another bit of trivia: native religions of Africa all share a belief in reincarnation, but rather than trying to snuff out the process and quit reincarnating, they hold that the dead eagerly await an opportunity to come again to the warm material world of feeling, and are delighted when given a chance.

 

Some Pacific Islanders expect to become members of the white race when they die, because their word for "ghost" is "white man."

 

Another: "Whoever said the Chinese are spiritual is a liar." -- Lin Yutang (the translator of Zhuangzi, etc., author, inventor of the Chinese typewriter)

 

Longevity is not overrated though I don't think. A good life should last and last. It's a not-so-good one that might warrant termination with extreme prejudice -- the way they would like to terminate it in all those next-world- or next-dimension- or some other bigger-better-reality-based belief systems derived from having failed to master the art of living in this-here one.

Edited July 1, 2008 by Taomeow

[witch]

All times are now, so longevity is...well I don't know what it is, but it's not necessary. Of course it is nice! Just not overwhelmingly important.

 

As once did Siddhartha. May you also come to understand what he did.

 

That he didn't have the common sense of a peasant woman, who had to fish him out of the river and feed him when he was starving himself to death?

 

Now I've done it!