Why Taoism is different

[DaoChild]

I love that the Dao is all around us - we are but fish in the sea as the saying goes.

 

It is an experiential / embracing Way, rather than transcendent. This has been said a lot, but that is what attracts me to it. Fully experiencing the five senses, to see the butterfly, smell the flower, taste the pure water, feel the wind, hear the thunder that transforms.

 

It gives me chills of contentment just pondering it

[exorcist_1699]

This Mind is "intelligent" but not in the sense we generally comprehend. It does not deliberately design so as to achieve ;It does not do anything ,yet fufill everything . Does Tao "sense" of its own existence ? I think yes , because Man is the embodiment of It in this world ; however ,only after we started the process of cultivation and having reached the stage of Shen/ Enlightenment, does Tao become self-conscious.The more enlightened we are, the more Tao "conscious " of Itself; the more "delicate" our mind is , the more Tao's omnipotent power we can grasp .

Edited February 21, 2009 by exorcist_1699

[Bent Arrow]

i wonder if i might weigh in here. Taoism is but one of the chinese sciences. i have only recently done a talk on this subject. Some of the other sciences are things like acupuncture, feng shui, gardening, yi jing, etc. And i have to say, if you are studying taoism, and cannot cure a common cold, you are doing it all wrong. becoming healthy and curing diseases is just the first step.

i have seen this in many areas, where western minds specialise on one area, and disregard the rest. in ancient china, this was never the case. The ancient monks did martial arts, AND medicine AND philosophy AND the rest. i remember reading somewhere that the ancients, if we could interview them, would say that they are fully taoist, as how else can they understand the way of the qi in the world, and they are fully buddhist, as how else can they reach the buddha state, and they are fully confucian, as how else can they understand the governmental systems.

i claim to be a generalist, not a specialist.

And thank you Sean for the email invitation to enter this discussion.

 

Warwick.

ps, how do i get a photo on my signature?

[exorcist_1699]

Taoism is for individual emancipation , I can't say that it is for human emancipation because in reality , only a small group of people are smart and tough enough to undertake such an enterprise .

 

Yet individual emancipation should start from something small and realistic : incapable of getting rid of a cool and aging , never can we talk about individual emancipation .

 

Although having aroused some people's aversion , I still have to say that aging is one of the most disgusting things I hate ; withered face with wrinkles and shaken teeth as well as AIDS , cancers ...all these things are not for we , an intelligent being you seldom found in this universe , to suffer .

[WudangAlienAlchemist]

Actually in Vedic alchemical and medical traditions they recognize jing qi and shen as ojas prana and tejas. Every other alchemical or magical tradition I have looked at has the energy of the three realms.

 

Blessings

[WhiteTiger]

Yet individual emancipation should start from something small and realistic : incapable of getting rid of a cool and aging , never can we talk about individual emancipation .

 

Although having aroused some people's aversion , I still have to say that aging is one of the most disgusting things I hate ; withered face with wrinkles and shaken teeth as well as AIDS , cancers ...all these things are not for we , an intelligent being you seldom found in this universe , to suffer .

 

Nicely said... You seem to impress me the more and more i read your posts.

 

I very much enjoy your posts... and glade you took time not just to post them for me but for everyone here.

[exorcist_1699]

Hardly can we attain immortality through Western science and technology , which always emphasizes the partial, micro solution of problems .

 

Besides , although our body is composed of atoms and molecules, and we can always move our fingers at our will , never can our mind directly manipulate any molecule in our body . Incapable of manipulating the basic, individual blocks of our body and matching them with the whole picture , plus incapable of mixing the material side of our existence with its spiritual side , all make us entangled in the basic dilemma of life : On one hand, physically we are gradually aging and weakening ; on the other hand , our brain always has immense intelligence and our having accumulated huge amount of knowledge as years passed.

 

Fortunately there is another system of thought which claims having grasped the basic block of human life from another dimension, i.e. qi, and its" refined " form : shen ( spirit ) , thus provides the way for real individual freedom .

Edited March 2, 2009 by exorcist_1699

[DaoChild]

if you are studying taoism, and cannot cure a common cold, you are doing it all wrong. becoming healthy and curing diseases is just the first step.

 

 

 

You can't cure a cold, it's a virus and therefore nothing you put into your body can actually make it go away. Viruses aren't living.

 

Isn't it more about preventing dis-ease and weakness in the body? Many of the early Quanzhen masters believed that simply having a distracted mind led to impurity and even disease in the body. Obviously it's much easier to prevent things from happening, rather than trying to fix them once they've already occurred.

Edited March 3, 2009 by DaoChild

[spitball]

Looking for differences is going to be a journey of opinions. IMO what makes Taoism different is.....

 

A buddist steps in dogshit and sighs a lives long suffering sigh

 

An alchemist steps in dogshit and at tries to incorparate it into the great work

 

A scientist steps in dogshit and wonders what dodshit is, where/why/when it comes from and what use has it

 

A xtian steps in dogshit and pukes at the disgustingness of it

 

A witch steps in dogshit and casts a spell to stop it happening again

 

A doaist steps in dogshit and smiles to himself knowing he can clean his shoe.

 

 

Daoists do not need to be told what is right and what is wrong, what is suffering and not suffering, to live longer or not. as long as they are true to their root/innate nature/center, they are walking at one with the Tao.

 

I like the story of the master who begins to explain the Tao to his student only for the student to fall asleep, the master laughs at his own foolishness or the students greater understanding, i cant remember which, i only use it to hopefully illustrate my point above..

 

This is the difference as i see it and i know its simplistic, but i'm a simple sort of spitball.

[Mak_Tin_Si]

Taoism teach you the way to improve life by knowing about how nature works and how you can work with nature to cope and blend with nature (the tao). Promote good life and good health and good wealth luck by knowing how to geneate good karma and understand nature.

 

Buddhism promote you understand life by not having the 4 major things in life or at least do not see heavy on these.. that include promote you to train with poor and suffer too. You cannot look heavy on materials, that ist he baby step.

 

what do you guys think? I am just answering to the main question

[Michael Roland]

Well I was wondering too... can you have spiritual abilities while not enlightened?

 

Thanks guys,

John

 

In a word; Yes.

 

Spiritual abilities are just another set of abilities. Daoist practices such as meditation and qigong can directly lead to spiritual abilities without having achieved enlightenment.

 

I assume you mean "spiritual abilities," to be the ability to work and function in realms other than what we consider the material realm i.e. subtle energies, higher spiritual realms, etc.

 

However, many Buddhist, Christian, and other practices can lead to the same abilities.

Edited March 24, 2009 by Michael Roland

[exorcist_1699]

In Taoist practice, even spiritual abilities are classified into yin and yang. And, unfortunately spiritual ability without having enlightened definitely is still in the arena of yin, which , is unlikely to be free of evils and mortality.

 

The magnificent temperament of Enlightenment, nourished by yang qi, is unparallel and beyond the reach of other spiritual abilities .

 

Yin-typed spiritual power, ie, non-Enlightened mind, no matter how strong it is , can never grant people immortality because it is a power not free from leaking (有漏智). ( leaking of jing, leaking through eyes, ears..etc)

Edited March 27, 2009 by exorcist_1699

[Iyoiyo]

This is one way Taoism is different: two people from different places, who've never met, and exist in completely different times can both stumble their way to the exact same Tao. This should be enough to separate Taoism from religion (for those who group them together). Christianity did not spring up in Eurasia and North America. Other things begin from a point and spread-- but the Tao is existence.

[exorcist_1699]

This is one way Taoism is different: two people from different places, who've never met, and exist in completely different times can both stumble their way to the exact same Tao. This should be enough to separate Taoism from religion (for those who group them together). Christianity did not spring up in Eurasia and North America. Other things begin from a point and spread-- but the Tao is existence.

 

 

If qi does exist , then sooner or later, at some place on this globe, some people, some ethnic will discover it . The problem is : after discovering qi, can they also then discover a complicate system compose of 20 meridian and hundreds of acupuncture points , and , able to lift it , abstract it to become a delicate Taoist system as we now see, that is the problem.

[Tabula Rasa]

Edited June 9, 2009 by Tabula Rasa

[Zijan]

[Marblehead]

Hi Zijan,

 

What a wonderful post! (Of course, the reason I think it is wonderful is that I feel almost exactly as you do.)

 

At this point yours is the only post to this topic I have viewed. I must go back to the beginning now and read all the other posts.

 

Be well!

[Marblehead]

Here's a taoist principle: undiscriminating virtue

i dunno, it's strange that it appears to be a very much overlooked element of taoist teaching, and yet to me, it seems to be the most important.

 

Hi Mat,

 

Yes, I agree. But then we have to come back to the "real world" where we need make distinctions, we need, IMO, to judge (each according to itself, not by some other criteria), to select this or that.

 

Yes, in the big picture all things are just as important as everything else. But as we break things down to our own world (our space) there are some things that are useless to us on our journey so we discard (or avoid)those, and there are other things that are useful so we hold to them (but only for their usefulness).

 

I think that to be totally undiscriminating in the "real world" is to invite disaster.

 

Be well!

 

 

"Religion usually promotes intoxication, an emotional religious intoxication

that causes people to block out rational development and fail to know the true

power of the life of the world. But in the teachings of Taoism, it's totally different.

It promotes spiritual sobriety, not intoxication."

 

I like that!

 

Be well!

 

 

All times are now, so longevity is...well I don't know what it is, but it's not necessary. Of course it is nice! Just not overwhelmingly important.

That he didn't have the common sense of a peasant woman, who had to fish him out of the river and feed him when he was starving himself to death?

 

Now I've done it!

 

WoW! You are a frisky witch! Hehehe.

 

Be well!

[mat black]

Hi Mat,

Yes, I agree. But then we have to come back to the "real world" where we need make distinctions, we need, IMO, to judge (each according to itself, not by some other criteria), to select this or that.

 

I think that to be totally undiscriminating in the "real world" is to invite disaster.

Hi Marblehead.

 

Yeah, we are faced with many decisions everyday which require us to discriminate or judge a situation and our response to it in order to acheive the most harmonious outcome. In order to do this, I think one way is by working at awakening wisdom within ourselves.

 

The term 'undiscriminating virtue' was intended to mean that if we have any virtue, we share it without discrimination. As it is said 'the sage is kind to those who are kind, and he is also kind to those who are not kind.'

........ as the venerable master Hsuan Hua says:

"What is kindness? It means being kind to those with whome one has no affinity. That is, to be kind and compasssionate to people no matter how they treat you. ........

"We should practice kindness, compassion, joy and giving because by being kind, we can make living beings happy and by being compassionate we can we can alleviate others sufferings and afflictions. We should love people as much as we love ourselves"

 

Hence, my understanding of the term undiscriminating virtue is to apply kindness without partiality. The sun shines on all etc etc.

 

Something to me that I feel is worth trying to cultivate

Edited July 11, 2009 by mat black

[Marblehead]

Hi Mat,

 

Hence, my understanding of the term undiscriminating virtue is to apply kindness without partiality. The sun shines on all etc etc.

 

Something to me that I feel is worth trying to cultivate

 

I wouldn't even want to try to argue against this because, afterall, it is the ideal.

 

I like your words: awakening wisdom

 

I recently became attached to (sorry, Hehehe) the word: Awareness

 

And I agree that there is nothing wrong with trying to be kind to those who are not kind. But for me, if that person continuously tries to misuse and abuse me then it really doesn't take me very long to discard that person as being something that is not useful in my life. (But I am not suggesting that it is not useful to Tao.)

 

Yes, I know, Tao and the Sage refuse nothing. I am not either.

 

But compassion, for those worthy (my judgement) of such, I have. And I do practice unattached charity (giving).

 

Be well!

[Stigweard]

Another take on "undiscriminating virtue"...

 

"Discriminate" comes from the Latin cernere which means to separate, which interestingly is the same root for crisis. If we adhere to the Taoist meaning of virtue, De / Te 德, as being one's true nature then "undiscriminating virtue" can be read to mean "Integral Nature".

 

So instead of regarding "undiscriminating virtue" as a verb in terms of treating other people without discrimination and can be taken more as a adjective, a descriptive of self when all the disparate elements of self are integrated into a harmonious whole.

 

Then our virtue will be truly wu wei because it will be merely the spontaneous expression of one's personality when one is living true to one's nature.

 

Taking this one step further, one could consider oneself truly an Integral being when one embraces all beings as indivisible parts of one's essential nature. Thus regarding oneself as whole one regards all life in its wholeness.

 

[Marblehead]

Hi Stigweard,

 

Interesting view. I had to read it three times because I am listening to Uriah Heep right now. (Hehehe.)

 

Yes, "te", I think, is an important concept when discussing subjects such as this.

 

So, if the subject is looked at from the whole, that is, if looked at from the point of Tao, there is no "discriminating virtue". Like Mat said, "The sun shines on all" and I will add, so does the rain.

 

However, when I get too much sun I seek shelter; when it rains I seek shelter. That is my personal "te", my natural virtue, if you will.

 

This brought to mind a quote from one of the "Kung Fu" films: "A man cannot do what his conscience will not allow."

 

I will suggest that our personal 'te' is limited by our instinct of survival. That is to say, I can do anything (with very few exceptions) as long as it does not interfer with my instinct to survive. So, to be nice to someone who is constantly trying to kill me would not be in my best interest. Nor would be being nice to someone who constantly causes me to loose my inner peace.

 

We each have our own set of personal virtues. Tao has no virtues (is totally undiscriminating). So we each must live our life according to our natural 'te'.

 

And I agree, if we live according to our 'true nature' we will, because of our 'te', spontaneously respond (or not) to all conditions in our life in the most natural manner (doesn't matter the results).

 

Be well!

[Ya Mu]

Another take on "undiscriminating virtue"...

 

"Discriminate" comes from the Latin cernere which means to separate, which interestingly is the same root for crisis. If we adhere to the Taoist meaning of virtue, De / Te 德, as being one's true nature then "undiscriminating virtue" can be read to mean "Integral Nature".

 

So instead of regarding "undiscriminating virtue" as a verb in terms of treating other people without discrimination and can be taken more as a adjective, a descriptive of self when all the disparate elements of self are integrated into a harmonious whole.

 

Then our virtue will be truly wu wei because it will be merely the spontaneous expression of one's personality when one is living true to one's nature.

 

Taking this one step further, one could consider oneself truly an Integral being when one embraces all beings as indivisible parts of one's essential nature. Thus regarding oneself as whole one regards all life in its wholeness.

 

 

If we adhere to the Taoist meaning of virtue, De / Te 德, as being one's true nature then "undiscriminating virtue" can be read to mean "Integral Nature".

...a descriptive of self when all the disparate elements of self are integrated into a harmonious whole.

 

Then our virtue will be truly wu wei because it will be merely the spontaneous expression of one's personality when one is living true to one's nature.

 

Taking this one step further, one could consider oneself truly an Integral being when one embraces all beings as indivisible parts of one's essential nature. Thus regarding oneself as whole one regards all life in its wholeness.

 

I like this! This bears repeating.

 

When finding and integrating our whole self and aligning ourselves to dance in the wu wei, all decisions are made NOW and with virtue/helping to gain virtue/expression of virtue. The best possible outcome for any decision IS. And all is spontaneous without preconceived input.

[mat black]

Nice stuff Stew, Marble and Ya Mu.

When finding and integrating our whole self and aligning ourselves to dance in the wu wei, all decisions are made NOW and with virtue/helping to gain virtue/expression of virtue. The best possible outcome for any decision IS. And all is spontaneous without preconceived input.

Mind if I give my take on how I read that?

That sounds to me like one's inherent nature. To realise or awaken to ones inherent nature, the application on the causative level should be in accord with that.

Hence I feel there is an importance of the 'practice' of virtue (causative) in order to lead to a merging with and realisation of spontaneous (inherent) virtue.

...........so the verb helps one to realise or re-establish the adjective, and return to being the noun of virtue.

 

(2 australian cents)

Edited July 13, 2009 by mat black

[Ya Mu]

...

Hence I feel there is an importance of the 'practice' of virtue (causative) in order to lead to a merging with and realisation of spontaneous (inherent) virtue.

...........so the verb helps one to realise or re-establish the adjective, and return to being the noun of virtue.

 

(2 australian cents)

 

Agreed!

 

I see it as a matter of raising the energy body vibrational rate. It gets to where only certain actions/decisions feel right. They may sometimes be quite bizarre only showing the "why" later, but end up, in hind sight, as the best thing to do. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't always try to do the right thing! Practice makes for a better world.