Why Taoism is different

[koyanishi]

 

and its why so many become intellectually wise but lack any real merit because they push aside the meditation, the ceremony and the devotion to dropping their ego and submimtting to a higher power other than their own views of a Self.

 

Peace,

Lin

 

Submitting to a higher power is perhaps the essential definition of religion, but I have never heard of a person of Tao submitting to anything.

 

"Meditation" does not have to have as object dropping of ego and can instead have no object but to clear the mind of thoughts that cloud insight.

 

Also, I have never heard of any principle of Taoism making a distinction between the profane and the sacred - which is again a distinction made in religion.

[Marblehead]

Hi Zedd & Koyanishi,

 

Nice posts.

 

This thead doesn't have to die. It is just that Stigweard and I had to agree to disagee, that's all.

 

It is true, in my opinion, that one can hold to the basic concepts of Taoism without holding to any of the religious aspects of the belief system ("belief system" was for Stigweard, Hehehe.).

 

And I agree that nowhere in Lao Tzu or Chuang Tzu is it suggested that we need submit ourself to anything.

 

Be well!

[林愛偉]

Submitting to a higher power is perhaps the essential definition of religion, but I have never heard of a person of Tao submitting to anything.

 

"Meditation" does not have to have as object dropping of ego and can instead have no object but to clear the mind of thoughts that cloud insight.

 

Also, I have never heard of any principle of Taoism making a distinction between the profane and the sacred - which is again a distinction made in religion.

 

 

"Clearing the mind of thoughts that clouds insight" is simply dropping the ego. No ego, where can thoughts reside to cloud the mind?

 

Daoism shows that all things come from the profound, and that the profound is only the profound when it is not recognized as such.

 

This higher power I speakof is not a god, immortal, etc... It is the higher power of wisdom. Yet, if one doesn't admit they do not have the wisdom to attain in cultivation, then they will never find a proper teacher who will guide them on the proper path. Admitting one doesn't have what it takes to do it on their own is submitting to a higher power..compassion and patience. Thus one can find a teacher, sumbit to the teacher in faith, and be brought to attaimment through guidance. No putting down of views causes one to be stuck.

 

Daoists know that they need to be taught about cultivation, wether its from a fellow cultivator, god, immortal, bodhisattva or Buddha. Yet, if there is no submitting to the teacher's methods, then there is no teachings expounded.

 

Peace,

Lin

[Marblehead]

Hi Lin,

 

I know that you post was not directed to me but I wish to speak on it none-the-less.

 

The problem I have with the phrase "submit to a higher power" is that the phrase is most often used by the powerful to keep the masses in line. It is nothing less than putting chains on my ankles.

 

I will agree with you that if we seek a teacher we must respect that person and honor that person's knowledge and put trust in the thought that whatever the teacher instructs is, in the long term, in my best interest. But to me the words 'respect', 'honor', and 'trust' are very different than the meaning of the word 'submission'.

 

It is my understanding that the only thing I need submit myself to are the processes of Nature. Beyond that I have choices.

 

I heard of one martial arts teacher recently who used his power of student submission to sexually abuse his students. This is where I draw the line between submission and honor, respect & trust.

 

Be well!

[林愛偉]

Hi Lin,

 

I know that you post was not directed to me but I wish to speak on it none-the-less.

 

The problem I have with the phrase "submit to a higher power" is that the phrase is most often used by the powerful to keep the masses in line. It is nothing less than putting chains on my ankles.

 

I will agree with you that if we seek a teacher we must respect that person and honor that person's knowledge and put trust in the thought that whatever the teacher instructs is, in the long term, in my best interest. But to me the words 'respect', 'honor', and 'trust' are very different than the meaning of the word 'submission'.

 

It is my understanding that the only thing I need submit myself to are the processes of Nature. Beyond that I have choices.

 

I heard of one martial arts teacher recently who used his power of student submission to sexually abuse his students. This is where I draw the line between submission and honor, respect & trust.

 

Be well!

 

Submission and ignorance do not go hand in hand, but unfortunately very naive people get suckered in to anything with an Asian flavor, Martial Arts niche, Energy work catch to it... let alone anything with a "Daoist" image, or sounding ...

 

Submit to a wise person's teachings, that means only to put down your own views, trust that person, respect that person, and investigate their teachings without seeking anything else. If their teachings lead one to be sexually devient, walk away...lead one to do drugs, walk away...

 

Submit, to the western mind, is too hard to swallow. TOo much ego. Fangxia, in Mandarin, means to put down. Fangxia Ziwo, means to put down the view of self, or ego. When one puts down, one is submiting to humility. Or in another word, accepting the way of humility.

 

Wether submit is used, or accepting is used..something is yielding. It is the views on the words chosen which bring about the repulsing of the mannerism.

 

In the old days it was ... one learns from 1 teacher and only one teacher. Or, one studies one Sutra for a 5yr period before moving on o something else. This was to ensure complete understanding of the method, to awaken, and reach another level of cultivation.

 

Peace,

Lin

[koyanishi]

"Clearing the mind of thoughts that clouds insight" is simply dropping the ego. No ego, where can thoughts reside to cloud the mind?

 

As long as you have the idea that there is something to be dropped you are merely spinning your wheels and hence have no insight.

 

Daoism shows that all things come from the profound, and that the profound is only the profound when it is not recognized as such.

 

What?

 

 

This higher power I speakof is not a god, immortal, etc... It is the higher power of wisdom. Yet, if one doesn't admit they do not have the wisdom to attain in cultivation, then they will never find a proper teacher who will guide them on the proper path.

 

Notion of a higher power is theism however you want to sugar coat it; and I am atheist.

 

Admitting one doesn't have what it takes to do it on their own is submitting to a higher power..compassion and patience. Thus one can find a teacher, sumbit to the teacher in faith, and be brought to attaimment through guidance. No putting down of views causes one to be stuck.

 

True teachers do not ask the student to submit to them. The Buddha after all said "be a lamp onto yourselves".

Also looking at the story of Tilopa and Naropa nowhere in that history is there a notion that Tilopa required Naropa to submit to him.

[林愛偉]

As long as you have the idea that there is something to be dropped you are merely spinning your wheels and hence have no insight.

What?

 

 

Notion of a higher power is theism however you want to sugar coat it; and I am atheist.

True teachers do not ask the student to submit to them. The Buddha after all said "be a lamp onto yourselves".

Also looking at the story of Tilopa and Naropa nowhere in that history is there a notion that Tilopa required Naropa to submit to him.

 

This kind of arguement/discussion has been done on this forum before.. waste of my time to go into this explanation again.

 

Enjoy!

 

Peace,

Lin

[Marblehead]

Thanks for the response Lin. Now I get to agree with what you said.

 

Be well!

[林愛偉]

Thanks for the response Lin. Now I get to agree with what you said.

 

Be well!

 

Peace and Blessings!

[Stigweard]

It is true, in my opinion, that one can hold to the basic concepts of Taoism without holding to any of the religious aspects of the belief system ("belief system" was for Stigweard, Hehehe.).

I am more than happy to agree with this ... it is absolutely true that you do not have to go into the traditional practices of Taoism to receive benefits. You can certainly enjoy the wonderful philosophy of the sages and improve your life thereby.

 

However please do not try and fallaciously assert that Taoism is a philosophy and not a religion and that the religious aspects of Taoism were in some way a denigration of the philosophy. Unless of course you can provide irrevocable proof from authentic sources to prove your statements. I am always willing to adjust my perspective in the presence of conclusive evidence and so far all I have seen is personal opinions.

 

Just in case you jump up and down indignantly with cries of "HYPOCRITE!!" ... once again I present you with "The "Taoism" of the Western imagination". And once again I refer you to the works of Ni, Hua Ching who is a modern day Taoist priest of the Quanzhen tradition.

Edited July 27, 2009 by Stigweard

[Marblehead]

However please do not try and fallaciously assert that Taoism is a philosophy and not a religion and that the religious aspects of Taoism were in some way a denigration of the philosophy. Unless of course you can provide irrevocable proof from authentic sources to prove your statements. I am always willing to adjust my perspective in the presence of conclusive evidence and so far all I have seen is personal opinions.

 

Ah! Now I see what twisted your string. I dearly do apologize if you got the impression that I was trying to denigrate the Taoist Religion. I honestly never meant for anyone to get the impression that I was trying to do that.

 

I will be one of the first people to stand up and support the right of anyone to choose whatever religion they wish to follow or if they wish to follow none. (I do not support the teaching of religion in our public schools though. I had to include that.)

 

I was arguing my own personal experience and preference and opinion. I would never knowingly even try to convert anyone from one philosophy or religion to another.

 

I do not preach Taoism to people I meet. If they bring up the subject of religion I will mention my Taoist belief - if they wish to discuss religion I will talk with them but I will speak from my own perspective.

 

I have no intention of trying to change anyone's mind here, least of all a good discussion partner like you. I can't even say what might be right for another person - maybe leaving, say, Christianity and becoming an Atheistic Taoist like myself would be the worst thing that could happen to certain individuals.

 

We each must find our own path.

 

But, in a generalized discussion, all I can do is speak from my point of view; I can't speak from anyone else's viewpoint, just as I cannot walk in another man's shoes.

 

Do you understand me a little better now?

 

Be well!

[Stigweard]

Ah! Now I see what twisted your string. I dearly do apologize if you got the impression that I was trying to denigrate the Taoist Religion. I honestly never meant for anyone to get the impression that I was trying to do that.

 

I will be one of the first people to stand up and support the right of anyone to choose whatever religion they wish to follow or if they wish to follow none. (I do not support the teaching of religion in our public schools though. I had to include that.)

 

I was arguing my own personal experience and preference and opinion. I would never knowingly even try to convert anyone from one philosophy or religion to another.

 

I do not preach Taoism to people I meet. If they bring up the subject of religion I will mention my Taoist belief - if they wish to discuss religion I will talk with them but I will speak from my own perspective.

 

I have no intention of trying to change anyone's mind here, least of all a good discussion partner like you. I can't even say what might be right for another person - maybe leaving, say, Christianity and becoming an Atheistic Taoist like myself would be the worst thing that could happen to certain individuals.

 

We each must find our own path.

 

But, in a generalized discussion, all I can do is speak from my point of view; I can't speak from anyone else's viewpoint, just as I cannot walk in another man's shoes.

 

Do you understand me a little better now?

 

Be well!

 

_/\_

[Ya Mu]

I see words like belief system, religious versus philosophical, atheism, higher power, sacred, etc. being utilized. I do not have the scholarly aspect of Taoism as my own. But what I do know is the living, breathing awe aspect of Taoism.

 

When I first learned Taoism, not much was said about all the various aspects discussed in this thread. But what was practiced was the essence of tuning in to all that is. For the first 2 years I kept asking questions like What is this supposed to feel like? How am I supposed to feel? What is the importance, what exactly am I seeking? When I asked these type of questions or actually any questions at all my teacher always laughed at me. A few years later I laughed with him.

 

AS far as a belief system, that it is not. As far as an experiential system, that it is. But I entirely disagree that Taoism does not lead to a Higher Level of being. Call it knowledge of Spirit or Tao or God or the Universe or what you will, if one does not arrive at the knowing of the Sacredness of the Great Mystery, the knowledge that we are interconnected, immortal Beings of Light, the knowledge of Destiny and Choice and truth of Virtue; then I say that is not true Taoism but the product of armchair philosophy derived from those who like to read and ponder. Without the practice of the energetic aspect of Taoism I believe it would be very difficult to arrive at these conclusions and I firmly believe and see that it is a simple matter of raising the energy body vibration rate, practice of Listening, aligning ourselves with the Higher Level vibrations, practice of Virtue, and Being the true self that we are.

 

And for anyone that thinks this sounds like southern baptist, actually I was raised southern baptist. At age 9 I walked out of the church and told everyone that "this is not correct" and "I no longer wish to have anything to do with it".

 

Without the actual practice that IS included in what some refer to as "religious Taoism", we are not finding out much by simply philosophizing about it.

 

I just don't see that one can actually try to separate the real Tao into divisions.

[WhiteTiger]

"Clearing the mind of thoughts that clouds insight" is simply dropping the ego. No ego, where can thoughts reside to cloud the mind?

 

Excuse me for not fully comprehending what you speaking of. Could you define what you call the ego. Not to be judgmental or anything but we are talking about false ego compared to a healthy ego to survive in daily life right?

 

Peace,

wt

[Stigweard]

I see words like belief system, religious versus philosophical, atheism, higher power, sacred, etc. being utilized. I do not have the scholarly aspect of Taoism as my own. But what I do know is the living, breathing awe aspect of Taoism.

 

When I first learned Taoism, not much was said about all the various aspects discussed in this thread. But what was practiced was the essence of tuning in to all that is. For the first 2 years I kept asking questions like What is this supposed to feel like? How am I supposed to feel? What is the importance, what exactly am I seeking? When I asked these type of questions or actually any questions at all my teacher always laughed at me. A few years later I laughed with him.

 

AS far as a belief system, that it is not. As far as an experiential system, that it is. But I entirely disagree that Taoism does not lead to a Higher Level of being. Call it knowledge of Spirit or Tao or God or the Universe or what you will, if one does not arrive at the knowing of the Sacredness of the Great Mystery, the knowledge that we are interconnected, immortal Beings of Light, the knowledge of Destiny and Choice and truth of Virtue; then I say that is not true Taoism but the product of armchair philosophy derived from those who like to read and ponder. Without the practice of the energetic aspect of Taoism I believe it would be very difficult to arrive at these conclusions and I firmly believe and see that it is a simple matter of raising the energy body vibration rate, practice of Listening, aligning ourselves with the Higher Level vibrations, practice of Virtue, and Being the true self that we are.

 

And for anyone that thinks this sounds like southern baptist, actually I was raised southern baptist. At age 9 I walked out of the church and told everyone that "this is not correct" and "I no longer wish to have anything to do with it".

 

Without the actual practice that IS included in what some refer to as "religious Taoism", we are not finding out much by simply philosophizing about it.

 

I just don't see that one can actually try to separate the real Tao into divisions.

I enthusiastically agree with everything you have just said !!!!

 

[koyanishi]

But I entirely disagree that Taoism does not lead to a Higher Level of being. Call it knowledge of Spirit or Tao or God or the Universe or what you will, if one does not arrive at the knowing of the Sacredness of the Great Mystery, the knowledge that we are interconnected, immortal Beings of Light, the knowledge of Destiny and Choice and truth of Virtue; then I say that is not true Taoism but the product of armchair philosophy derived from those who like to read and ponder.

 

To say that one practices self cultivation in Taoism to attain a higher state is, I think, an acceptable statement to make. I, however, prefer to say I practice self cultivation to be more at one with the Tao. Notions of high and low are unnecessary.

 

But to say that in order to achieve realization one must subjugate oneself to a higher power sounds theistic and not very Taoist to me.

Edited July 28, 2009 by koyanishi

[WhiteTiger]

But to say that in order to achieve realization one must subjugate oneself to a higher power sounds theistic and not very Taoist to me.

 

I would have to agree.

 

wt

[Marblehead]

Hi Ya Mu,

 

Nice post.

 

Hi White Tiger,

 

Excuse me for not fully comprehending what you speaking of. Could you define what you call the ego. Not to be judgmental or anything but we are talking about false ego compared to a healthy ego to survive in daily life right?

 

I agree with you. Chuang Tzu told us to lessen our ego, not to try to eliminate it. We need ego for self survival. The concept is spoken of differently when you are speaking from the Buddhist perspective than it is from the Taoist perspective.

 

Be well!

[WhiteTiger]

Hi Ya Mu,

 

Nice post.

 

Hi White Tiger,

 

Excuse me for not fully comprehending what you speaking of. Could you define what you call the ego. Not to be judgmental or anything but we are talking about false ego compared to a healthy ego to survive in daily life right?

 

I agree with you. Chuang Tzu told us to lessen our ego, not to try to eliminate it. We need ego for self survival. The concept is spoken of differently when you are speaking from the Buddhist perspective than it is from the Taoist perspective.

 

Be well!

 

Thank you very much Marblehead for your post.

 

What you said about Chuang Tzu's teachings of lessening the ego is something that I like and enjoy. Although I believe its slightly differently looked at by Taoists and again Buddhists.

 

Mind sharing your perspective on the differences between Taoists view of ego and Buddhists view of ego?

 

thanks,

Peace, and Virtue

wt

Edited July 28, 2009 by WhiteTiger

[Ya Mu]

To say that one practices self cultivation in Taoism to attain a higher state is, I think, an acceptable statement to make. I, however, prefer to say I practice self cultivation to be more at one with the Tao. Notions of high and low are unnecessary.

...

 

The Higher State I am referring to IS being more at one with the Tao. The true Wu Wei NOW where we practice Listening and walk as one with the Tao; in this state all synchronicity Harmony occurs.

 

But to say that in order to achieve realization one must subjugate oneself to a higher power sounds theistic and not very Taoist to me.

 

I used the word "align" ourselves with the Higher vibrations. Without doing this one cannot truly walk in the Wu Wei. A person can reach a certain level with cultivation but can not go further until they have done so. It is a matter of vibration, as in without the whole being in Harmony we can't truly know our real self.

[Marblehead]

[koyanishi]

...

 

The Higher State I am referring to IS being more at one with the Tao. The true Wu Wei NOW where we practice Listening and walk as one with the Tao; in this state all synchronicity Harmony occurs.

 

You can refer to it as a higher state if you like, but you should also be aware that in the Tao heaven and earth, high and low are included. The Tao is not something above your head.

 

I used the word "align" ourselves with the Higher vibrations. Without doing this one cannot truly walk in the Wu Wei. A person can reach a certain level with cultivation but can not go further until they have done so. It is a matter of vibration, as in without the whole being in Harmony we can't truly know our real self.

 

You used aligned but 林愛偉 used the phrase "submit to a higher power" in post #306. I thought your chiming in here was in response to my argument against such a notion, hence I inserted a rebuttal to the notion of submitting to a higher power and not to your idea of aligning with the Tao.

Edited July 28, 2009 by koyanishi

[Marblehead]

Well, now that we all have totally misunderstood one another, What's Next?

 

Listening without prejudice?

 

Be well!

[Ya Mu]

You can refer to it as a higher state if you like, but you should also be aware that in the Tao heaven and earth, high and low are included. The Tao is not something above your head....

 

I didn't say Tao was above our heads. Once again, I am referring to VIBRATIONS. And yes, there most definitely is a difference in vibratory states, Higher Level versus lower level vibrational states. And the ONLY way that I know of to get to the Higher Vibratory Levels is to practice cultivation of energetics with the initial initiation of a High Level Teacher (a teacher who actually knows and can show you the difference in these states and raise your energy body vibration rate), practice and cultivate Virtue (impossible without it), practice Listening leading to Linking, find and fulfill one's Destiny, and ultimately make the choice to align oneself with these Higher Vibratory States.

In lieu of the raising of the energy body vibrational rate and initiation to the Higher Level energetics by a teacher possibly one could spend an additional 10-20 years of energetic cultivation with a real qigong system without the teacher. I do not advise this.

[exorcist_1699]

It is by dropping our pseudo -ego that a real Mind , also called the original Person (本來人), can arise ;Without the appearance of this Person, of course, all our practice will be groundless . This Person further help us bringing about a much bigger Mind, in the Taoist term , the Heart of the Cosmos(天心) . That is, all individuals' deepest spirit are , in fact, sharing part of a much greater Mind , which makes our sharing of more immense and higher quality of qi in this cosmos possible . All the secrets of immortality lies here. In the West , some thinkers, say Hegel, his Absolute Spirit, at first look, seems suggests something similar , yet in their thoughts, there is no concept of qi, no jing-qi-shen framework, so the way of bridging our daily trivial ego with a much bigger Mind is in fact nonexistent...

 

Dropping a daily pseudo -ego, yet incapable of nourishing a much bigger Mind , in Buddhist term, is called pseudo -void(假空) , or as some kind unproductive emptiness (虛而不靈; in Taoist term ) ; Unfortunately , likely it is people who can't nourish such a bigger Mind that always criticize the so-called religious Taoism...