Why Taoism is different

[Stigweard]

It is by dropping our pseudo -ego that a real Mind , also called the original Person (本來人), can arise ;Without the appearance of this Person, of course, all our practice will be groundless . This Person further help us bringing about a much bigger Mind, in the Taoist term , the Heart of the Cosmos(天心) . That is, all individuals' deepest spirit are , in fact, sharing part of a much greater Mind , which makes our sharing of more immense and higher quality of qi in this cosmos possible . All the secrets of immortality lies here. In the West , some thinkers, say Hegel, his Absolute Spirit, at first look, seems suggests something similar , yet in their thoughts, there is no concept of qi, no jing-qi-shen framework, so the way of bridging our daily trivial ego with a much bigger Mind is in fact nonexistent...

 

Dropping a daily pseudo -ego, yet incapable of nourishing a much bigger Mind , in Buddhist term, is called pseudo -void(假空) , or as some kind unproductive emptiness (虛而不靈; in Taoist term ) ; Unfortunately , likely it is people who can't nourish such a bigger Mind that always criticize the so-called religious Taoism...

_/\_

[koyanishi]

I didn't say Tao was above our heads. Once again, I am referring to VIBRATIONS. And yes, there most definitely is a difference in vibratory states, Higher Level versus lower level vibrational states. And the ONLY way that I know of to get to the Higher Vibratory Levels is to practice cultivation of energetics with the initial initiation of a High Level Teacher (a teacher who actually knows and can show you the difference in these states and raise your energy body vibration rate), practice and cultivate Virtue (impossible without it), practice Listening leading to Linking, find and fulfill one's Destiny, and ultimately make the choice to align oneself with these Higher Vibratory States.

In lieu of the raising of the energy body vibrational rate and initiation to the Higher Level energetics by a teacher possibly one could spend an additional 10-20 years of energetic cultivation with a real qigong system without the teacher. I do not advise this.

 

OK. Thanks

[~jK~]

Examining the Chinese character for Tao, 道 the meaning becomes more clear. Beginning on the left, is a foot & ankle for walking on the higher path which is the top portion that has a couple of ticks '' meaning the greater things that happen on the path. The central figure is an eye for sight. In China, seeing is understanding. This last sentence seems small but it was taken by The Royal Society of England in the 16th century and made into what is now called "the Scientific Method." Before that time what was seen as science was based on the belief system...

 

The word Taoism implies the philosophy of Lau Tze but to be truthful, it has grown much greater.

 

Lao Tze pointed to the 3 greats of the Tao as:

 

1-Tao as all that is and its functions.

 

2- Yin and Yang: the opposites which allow us to see the perspectives of change

 

3- Leadership is that which allows us humans to rise above our frail selves to achieve true greatness.

***

In China, the Tao is seen as a type of common knowledge based on family values and the I Ching which is known as the Ba Gua (Pronounced Bah Gua) or language of 8 as a method of examining an idea from 8 different perspectives and subdividing these 8 points into 6 further points. Of the I Ching books that I am familar with there are : The Taoist I Ching, The Buddhist I Ching, The Confucian I Ching, and the King Wen & Duke of Chow authored I Ching which is about governing the people.

 

In Education it is "The Students rules" which is a 186 stanza of guidelines that each student must memorize by age 15. Many children have it commited to memory by age 8. It gives the students a clear perspective of what is expected of them as well as a behavior method for the good students / good children in relation to school and home.

Here is a copy http://tsoidug.org/dizigui_trans_simp.php

 

What makes The Tao so different?

 

I would say that largely it is from being new as well as from 1/2 of the way around the world.

Then comes into play the point that China has been developing for many, many more years than the west.

And of course there is the emphasis on family. There is no need for social security if they have children . As well in their seeing that they will reincarnate through their children - so their actions toward their children create their future personal heaven or hell. Their children become their primary investment for their next life's happiness. Education is seen as a developmental process for the family that will last as long as the family lasts...

 

So how can the Tao work with the rest of the world?

The Tao has within its ability a key that can open the door to world peace.

It has been happening for some time now. A realistic philosophy has begun to replace the ancient western belief systems with a way that can be experienced and will benefit all of society.

What is this key?

Carl G. Jung noted Buddhist philosophy as the mental health system of Asia. Based on education rather than belief systems. It is a point that almost all serious meditators arrive at eventualy - But I think that I've written enough - here is a web page that can do much better than I can.

http://www.amtbweb.org/tchquote.php

Edited August 19, 2009 by ~jK~

[Marblehead]

Very nice post ~jK~.

 

Thanks for sharing.

 

Be well!

[morganlake]

However, it is not any kind of theological framework, but the guideline describes so well ,so clear-cut every step of our practice that , the Taoist masters, after having proposed it , were so scared of the result, desparately had to mix it up with strange jargons

 

What makes Taoism different ? Lets start with this one - "Make oneself useless" All other "religions" (relegere - latin for "to bind together" ) include the goal of serving others, becomeing something others can exploit, dying for the cause, self-less giving, martyrdom, etc. The result is we are slaves to the economic machines that

drives our societies. The purpose of religion is to keep us bound to these rivers of wealth that flow from women and children and poor - upward.

 

The Dao De Ching tells me that the society Lao-Tze lived in was very keen on exploiting people, and

he responded to it by telling us to become "useless" - the wood of the oak tree is too soft for any purpose

so that is hwy the oak is the last tree standing...

 

Is there any other religion that gives advice which would result in the collapse of the economic machine

that exploits us?

 

If not, then Daoism is different - in a very important way.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

OK. Thanks

 

Do Daoists believe (telling your self something is true that you don't know in your heart is true) in things?

 

Is there a Daoost "belief system?" To be a Daoist must I tell myself a set of hypotheses shared by others who claim to be Daoists?

 

When I catch myself believing in something, I tell myself: "Believe in nothing. The idea is eithor a hypothesis or gnosis (knowledge of the heart) Stop telling yourself something is true until you know it in your heart. Run more experiments. Believing is self deceit and self abuse. I like shamanism because there is nothing to believe in, no cannon, no belief system. "

 

I can trust you because you dont live by faith in beliefs. - Oriah Mountain Dreamer

[Wayfarer64]

This has been an interesting thread for some time now... I am glad to see it around still...Many many months ago Sean O. PM'd & asked me to add my 2 cents to this thread... I'll look back at it now to see where I was at then...

 

Let me use a quote that I tender in my books' intro...

 

 

A Belief is a vivid hope or fear, and the origin of folly.

A wise person goes by knowledge, not hope or fear.

 

Taoists are naturalists at heart. We have nature as our guide and insperation. We seek harmony with the wider universe and take only what we need from

the world of men... -

 

with humility and humor I hope!

 

Love to all-

[hyok]

It is by dropping our pseudo -ego that a real Mind , also called the original Person (本來人), can arise ;Without the appearance of this Person, of course, all our practice will be groundless . This Person further help us bringing about a much bigger Mind, in the Taoist term , the Heart of the Cosmos(天心) . That is, all individuals' deepest spirit are , in fact, sharing part of a much greater Mind , which makes our sharing of more immense and higher quality of qi in this cosmos possible . All the secrets of immortality lies here. In the West , some thinkers, say Hegel, his Absolute Spirit, at first look, seems suggests something similar , yet in their thoughts, there is no concept of qi, no jing-qi-shen framework, so the way of bridging our daily trivial ego with a much bigger Mind is in fact nonexistent...

 

Dropping a daily pseudo -ego, yet incapable of nourishing a much bigger Mind , in Buddhist term, is called pseudo -void(假空) , or as some kind unproductive emptiness (虛而不靈; in Taoist term ) ; Unfortunately , likely it is people who can't nourish such a bigger Mind that always criticize the so-called religious Taoism...

 

Thank you for this.

[Wayfarer64]

It's very different from all Indo-European modalities, including buddhism, and it's very similar to all shamanic/pagan modalities, in that it is not paternalistic, hierarchical, creationist, or escapist. I could tackle each postulate separately, or I could present the practical outcome. The former would be a long digression, so I'll limit myself to the latter.

 

The practical outcome is that Chinese civilization's main accomplishment (give or take a couple centuries of externally fabricated meddling that muddied the waters for a while here and there -- but six thousand years is six thousand years, what's a couple centuries?.. even if they happen to be now?.. this, too, shal pass...) --

 

its main accomplishment has been mastering the art of living and deriving enjoyment from life: nature, health, family, friendships, food, work, play, the arts, the sciences, humanity. It is humane, human-affirming. It is about life, not about afterlife, it is about "yes" to being human, not "no." That's the conceptual difference that, to me, makes all the difference in the world, despite whatever similarities in whatever approaches, practices, even conclusions. Similarities are skin-deep, the core of taoism is humane, and the core of Indo-European modalities is anti-human. Makes one wonder who really originated this and what exactly for. That they've succeeded in teaching people to despise and deny the human life as a prerequisite for venturing into things "spiritual" is doubtless. But not all people. Not the hardened, incorrigible, other-influences-deflecting taoists anyway.

 

I take this from the 1st page of this thread...It works for me -thanks Taomeow!

[Marblehead]

[exorcist_1699]

Taoism is neither a Naturalism nor Humanism in any Western sense. It is not any kind of Naturalism because it believes that behind Nature , there is some kind of "metaphysical" Tao, or pre-heaven qi, hidden , governing all things . It is not a kind of Humanism for in traditional Chinese culture, in both Confucian and Taoist systems , Man is not only together Heaven and Earth , be called three basic elements("三才") that form this world , but also after having grasped the most secret force of this universe , that is the pre-heaven qi , he can become god-like being, disentangled of many physical limitations, and live endlessly.

Edited August 31, 2009 by exorcist_1699

[Marblehead]

Taoism is neither a Naturalism nor Humanism in any Western sense. It is not any kind of Naturalism because it believes that behind Nature , there is some kind of "metaphysical" Tao, or pre-heaven qi, hidden , governing all things . It is not a kind of Humanism for in traditional Chinese culture, in both Confucian and Taoist systems , Man is not only together Heaven and Earth , be called three basic elements("三才") that form this world , but also after having grasped the most secret force of this universe , that is the pre-heaven qi , he can become god-like being, disentangled of many physical limitations, and live endlessly.

 

Hi Exorcist,

 

I agee that there are many Taoists who fit into the parameters you set above. There are also many who do not. I am one who does not.

 

For me, there is no 'hidden power governing all things' unless you want to consider the laws of physics a hidden power. The laws of physics are to the scientist as Tzujan is to the Taoist. They are the natural proccess of the universe and all things therein.

 

There is no god for me to strive to be like, my physical cannot extend beyond the physical and I will die one day.

 

All of what I said above is consistent with Taoist philosophy.

 

But then, I am not saying that what you have said is not true for some.

 

Happy Trails!

[wudangspirit]

Lin,

 

I'd have to agree with you on the virtue and moral part of a majority of practicing longevity arts and calling it Taoism. However, for those truly practicing Taoism can't help but to try and practice virtue. It is one of the main core practices of Taoism and we learn this from day one.

 

The Tao Te Ching is written on Tao and Virtue. Thanks for bringing this up for a much needed attention grabber.

 

Amituofu and Tao Bless

 

Buddhism's Jing Qi Shen is simple:

 

Precepts, Samadhi and Wisdom.

 

Precepts cultivate the Jing, store the yuan qi from wasting( wasting through day-dreaming,false thinking basically sexual indulgence to extremes, and controlling desires through understanding their origin.).

 

Samadhi transforms such jing to Qi, through concentration and cultivation of the mind and body; By the not wasting of one's essence, they will hav the strength and will to uphold the states through concentration. This will naturally transform one's mind: Jing, Qi.

 

Wisdom is the outcome of purifying the heart and mind through seeing that all desires, emotions and views are actually false (it would be seen as an outcome of attaining true wisdom), thus leading to a vibrant body, resulting in a long life, as well as attaining true spiritual wisdom, unaltered wisdom.

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

 

 

P.S.- Daoism, seen as different doesn't make you more Immortal, or having more abilities. In views of separation, ego arises, views of ego, a self, living beings, and a life span...thus leading to arrogance, anger, greed and ignorance.

 

Buddhism cultivates the Buddha in the Heart, which results in attaining Buddhahood, which is complete in wisdom, and spiritual abilities. And is definetly not what most people ASSUME it is.

 

Daoism cultivates the Dan Tian; to attain immortality and eventually attain enlightenment. The problem is, there is less focus on virtue and moral practice in "Modern" Daoism, and more focus on spiritual abilities and longevity, which doesn't lead one to enlightenment right away../actually it slows one down.

 

The fact is, if the mind is pure, everything is pure. Attaching to views only caises more afflictions. THat is not true cultivation of the Way.

 

All of the Qigong and Neigong and Spiritual abilities will do no good if one still has ignorance as their friend, greed as the father and anger as the mother. One will only remain ignorant, and stuck in their own conditions.

 

Basically, upholding the view of differences only causes more arguing in the long run, views of arrogance, and self, ego. Its not worth it. It doesn't make one a better cultivator.

 

Instead, look at the similarities, and how they actually speak very similar teachings to an extent. This way, more people will want to learn about them, and begin a proper foundation of Educational Cultivation.

If all people see is bickering about which is better, then they will only remain confused, and become arrogant fools.

 

If one can not tell, through wisdom mind, the differences of expedients as expedients, then they should not comment frivolously about expedients. It only creates more karma of the mouth and mind... not fun.

 

As such, living beings will only understand as much as they have the capacity for.

 

Peace,

Lin

 

*** I had added one word to the 3rd paragraph after the "P.S." I put it in quotations: "Modern"

[exorcist_1699]

Hi Exorcist,

 

I agee that there are many Taoists who fit into the parameters you set above. There are also many who do not. I am one who does not.

 

For me, there is no 'hidden power governing all things' unless you want to consider the laws of physics a hidden power. The laws of physics are to the scientist as Tzujan is to the Taoist. They are the natural proccess of the universe and all things therein.

 

There is no god for me to strive to be like, my physical cannot extend beyond the physical and I will die one day.

 

All of what I said above is consistent with Taoist philosophy.

 

But then, I am not saying that what you have said is not true for some.

 

Happy Trails!

Hi, MarbleHead

 

It , post-heavenly qi , is so deeply hidden that even our making use of the most advanced apparatus ,which all are the products of the laws of physics , we still can't directly detect its existence nowadays ; it , pre-heavenly qi , is so deeply hidden that only in Awakening , can we see its real face.

Edited September 1, 2009 by exorcist_1699

[Marblehead]

Hi, MarbleHead

 

It , post-heavenly qi , is so deeply hidden that even our making use of the most advanced apparatus ,which all are the products of the laws of physics , we still can't directly detect its existence nowadays ; it , pre-heavenly qi , is so deeply hidden that only in Awakening , can we see its real face.

 

Hi Exorcist,

 

Boy! We could have fun with this.

 

Problem is that for me to have fun with it it would be necessary that I suggest that I have been Awakened. Of course, if I do that I will have all the Buddhists here jumping all over my case. Hehehe.

 

But I understand what you are saying. But, just to make sure that you understand what I consider to be 'pre-heavenly' Chi, in my understanding it is Chi prior to any interaction with Mystery, that is, pure, unaltered energy (Yin and Yang).

 

Oh. And I suggest that we do not really 'see' it but it is more at a realization.

 

'Post-heavenly' Chi, is the energy of the universe that has already been altered. This includes our personal Chi.

 

What cha' think?

 

Happy Trails!

Edited September 1, 2009 by Marblehead

[hyok]

It is interesting to me that there is an on-going debate on the nature of Tao - whether its essence is influenced by a Great Consciousness - i.e. Creator or whether this is in fact the aggregate of mixing energy/matter within the laws of physics.

 

It seems in Taoist teachings it is never directly stated that it is one way or another, but traces of a greater mind seem to litter its words. Like the words "pre-heavenly qi" or "post-heavenly qi". These words seem to insinuate that there is order in the heavens, and that the regulation of this order is beyond the abilities of the conscious ego and mind.

 

From the Tao Te Ching...

 

21.

 

It lies in the nature of Grand Virtue

To follow the Tao and the Tao alone

Now what is the Tao?

It is something elusive and evasive.

Evasive and elusive!

And yet it contains within Itself a Form.

Elusive and Evasive!

And yet it contains within itself a Substance.

Shadowy and dim!

And yet it contains within Itself a Core of Vitality.

The Core of Vitality is very real,

It contains within itself an unfailing Sincerity.

Throughout the ages Its Name has been preserved

In order to recall the Beginning of all things.

How do I know the ways of all things at the

Beginning?

By what is within me.

Edited September 1, 2009 by hyok

[Marblehead]

It is interesting to me that there is an on-going debate on the nature of Tao - whether its essence is influenced by a Great Consciousness - i.e. Creator or whether this is in fact the aggregate of mixing energy/matter within the laws of physics.

 

It seems in Taoist teachings it is never directly stated that it is one way or another, but traces of a greater mind seem to litter its words. Like the words "pre-heavenly qi" or "post-heavenly qi". These words seem to insinuate that there is order in the heavens, and that the regulation of this order is beyond the abilities of the conscious ego and mind.

 

Hi Hyok,

 

Nice translation of the chapter.

 

Yes, there will alway be those who argue for an universal consciousness. I am not one of those.

 

And there will always be the desire to have a creator (personified) who has caused everything to happen. I am not one of those.

 

But I cannot say which is 'right'. In matters such as these the best I can do is to state my opinions based upon my understandings.

 

I do believe that there is order in the heavens (universe) but it is not necessarily in accordance with most poeple's understanding of 'order'. So yes, in order to understand it we must give way to our ego and conscious (and even subconscious) mind.

 

Of course, I hold to the concept of the big bang as the beginning of this beginning so it really isn't any problem for me.

 

Happy Trails!

[hyok]

Yes, there will alway be those who argue for an universal consciousness. I am not one of those.

 

And there will always be the desire to have a creator (personified) who has caused everything to happen. I am not one of those.

 

I'm thinking you're right..

 

 

- if a person desires a personified relationship with the Tao, so it will be.

 

- if a person does not, thus it will be.

 

 

Makes perfect sense to me and this is probably the way it is.

[Marblehead]

I'm thinking you're right..

- if a person desires a personified relationship with the Tao, so it will be.

 

- if a person does not, thus it will be.

Makes perfect sense to me and this is probably the way it is.

 

Hehehe. Hey, what can I say? You have read the conclusion.

 

Happy Trails!

[Mal]

BTT

[Mark Foote]

[Marblehead]

Hi Mark,

 

Just letting you know that I have read your post. I don't talk about the various arts or practices but I do have an interest in the first half of your post.

 

If your intention was to stimulate a discussion of the arts or practices then I am out but if you wish to discuss the first half of your post you can count me in.

 

Happy Trails!

[JustARandomPanda]

Sacred Geometry (this is rare):

 

On Google: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2678677817969925095

 

Download here: http://www.esnips.com/doc/66b6ba38-e112-46...olden-section_2

 

Can someone tell me how to download this video? I looked everywhere on the page the second link links to but couldn't find it anywhere. Right-click > Save Link As didn't work either.

[Chang San Feng]

Can someone tell me how to download this video? I looked everywhere on the page the second link links to but couldn't find it anywhere. Right-click > Save Link As didn't work either.

 

 

go to the google video page. at the bottom under the film is a download link for iPod etc. it will download an .mp4 file to your computer (right click if you have to). You can play this file in VLC.

 

VLC:

http://www.videolan.org/vlc/

 

will play just about anything

Edited September 25, 2009 by Chang San Feng

[bewellhappy]

I am throwing all my efforts into becoming material as possible and enflaming the passions. Personally I think spirituality, purity and longevity are overrated!

 

Yes I too tried that and it can be said about me as Churchill said about America during the war (please no offence my US mates) You can be sure they will do the right thing, after they have done everything else.

 

I believe that without compassion and kindness we can not truely experience all the world has to offer. Yet I agree I only know this after trying most everything else.I found through trying to live a virtuous life I am less seperate and more connected to everyone and thing, less seperate.

 

 

Edited September 25, 2009 by bewellhappy

[Mark Foote]