Why Taoism is different

[voidisyinyang]

Kriya yoga of the yogananda tradition is based on the small universe (just like Taoist Yoga) AND the full-lotus as well.

 

Check out the 16 mn of this vid:

 

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1...&plindex=3#

Edited October 18, 2009 by drewhempel

[Mark Foote]

Kriya yoga of the yogananda tradition is based on the small universe (just like Taoist Yoga) AND the full-lotus as well.

 

Check out the 16 mn of this vid:

 

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1...&plindex=3#

 

Thanks for the video recommendation, the opening few minutes were very interesting; the graphic sure resembled the sphenoid, butterfly bone in the center of the skull with the pineal embedded in the center of it.

I don't seek to transcend the senses, so I tuned out after awhile, but I appreciate the descriptions none the less.

 

Mr. V, is it the Tibetan path you are on then? I'm not sure what part of jing they address in Tibetan Buddhism, but like Taoism there seem to be strains of Tibetan Buddhism that allow of intercourse under certain conditions. Not much acknowledged, I know the Dalai Lama said these are the monks that also eat shit, but that's about the only straight reference I've heard to it. And in Taoism, what, they want to retain the semen (shades of the novel Candy)? Well, I don't know if sexuality is the height of jing, or entering the eye of I-forget-who in the center of the brain as in the video of the Indian yogin; I think I will hope to experience whatever I can of the stuff I am made of, since there is nothing apart from that, so the Gautamid taught.

[Vajrahridaya]

 

Mr. V, is it the Tibetan path you are on then? I'm not sure what part of jing they address in Tibetan Buddhism, but like Taoism there seem to be strains of Tibetan Buddhism that allow of intercourse under certain conditions. Not much acknowledged, I know the Dalai Lama said these are the monks that also eat shit, but that's about the only straight reference I've heard to it. And in Taoism, what, they want to retain the semen (shades of the novel Candy)? Well, I don't know if sexuality is the height of jing, or entering the eye of I-forget-who in the center of the brain as in the video of the Indian yogin; I think I will hope to experience whatever I can of the stuff I am made of, since there is nothing apart from that, so the Gautamid taught.

 

Grew up Shaivite Tantra and went Tibetan Tantra and Dzogchen some 5 years ago. The Dalai Lama is talking about ordained monks who at a certain point get permission to practice Highest Yoga Tantra (that has Karmamudra practice, which is sexual tantra with a live mate of high wisdom) due to their level of realization.

 

There are in Tibetan Tantra lay practitioners who are called Nagpas that get transmission for sexual tantra and can realize the same state of Buddhahood through sexual tantra and never take ordination and can get married and have kids.

 

Vajrayana (Tibetan Buddhism) is vast and complicated with many traditions and lineages, methods and philosophies from monks to lay practitioners.

 

Jing would probably be called a prana (inner wind) of some sort.

[Apech]

...I wonder if we cannot communicate now in the vocabulary of all three early teachings, and kinethesiology, and cranial-sacral therapy, talk to people about the funny intersection of will and hypnotic phenomena around the breath.

 

 

 

Mark,

 

This bit caught my eye - can you expand at all about what you mean?

 

Thanks.

 

A.

[Mark Foote]

Mark,

 

This bit caught my eye - can you expand at all about what you mean?

 

Thanks.

 

A.

Hi, Apepch7, sure (I think!) I can...

 

I played with hypnosis in middle school and early high school years, I did succeed in inducing trance in others and I think myself (using tapes, actually), but I didn't do much with it. The method of induction I used was a patter like "relax your entire body breathing in- relax your entire body breathing out; feel the weight of the body breathing in- feel the weight of the body breathing out", mostly around breathing in and out.

 

As I mentioned before on this site, I got into veganism for a couple of years, and became a little spacey I think. Maybe six months after I started eating small amounts of egg, fish, and cheese again, I was sitting at my desk in a house on Cole St. San Francisco on the north side of the panhandle, trying to keep an awareness of breath throughout a day. I found myself rising from my desk, and as I retained my awareness of breath I moved to the door of my room. This was exactly like action from hypnotic suggestion, no will on my part involved at all, just witness; catch is, there was no suggestion (unless perhaps the suggestor was my subconscious mind?). I retained the feeling of the experience, and tried for years to get all my activity to come from that place. After awhile I realized that if I truly believed an action was necessary, "the windy element" would move my body to effect it, but like hypnosis I couldn't get "the windy element" to do anything I didn't truly believe in. I used to have a roommate who loved to go down to Gaylord's ice cream parlor with me and watch me eat; kind of trippy when the hand moves independent of the will, but hopefully I'm not so fanatic anymore.

 

Years later, I did hear Kobun Chino Otogawa chide everyone at S.F. Zen Center as he closed a lecture, saying "you know, sometimes zazen gets up and walks around". Question is, how do you set up the experience for someone else? I'm convinced that personal necessity is a big part of it, my practice at the time was to give up everything until I got down to what I absolutely needed. That's why I was a little spacey, you get to feeling subtle energies when you are giving things up like that. Trick is not to hurt yourself, and I think the meditation on in-breaths and out-breaths is like an anchor in that regard.

 

A decade later I realized I still couldn't sit the lotus worth beans, and I set to studying kinesthesiology, at first from "low back pain syndrome" by Rene Calliet (hope I'm spelling that right) and articles he referenced, then fortunately through the works of John Upledger and other cranial-sacral practitioners. I now apply myself to realize "the windy element" in the simple actions of upright posture from one instance of consciousness to the next, and I find it is really keyed to the free movements of the sacrum, and the impact of sense contact on the stretch already in existence as consciousness takes place. My latest write references this toward the end (Zazen), though I admit the connection with hypnotic phenomena is not yet clear to me and not explicitly in that writing.

 

Mark

[Mark Foote]

Grew up Shaivite Tantra and went Tibetan Tantra and Dzogchen some 5 years ago. The Dalai Lama is talking about ordained monks who at a certain point get permission to practice Highest Yoga Tantra (that has Karmamudra practice, which is sexual tantra with a live mate of high wisdom) due to their level of realization.

 

There are in Tibetan Tantra lay practitioners who are called Nagpas that get transmission for sexual tantra and can realize the same state of Buddhahood through sexual tantra and never take ordination and can get married and have kids.

 

Vajrayana (Tibetan Buddhism) is vast and complicated with many traditions and lineages, methods and philosophies from monks to lay practitioners.

 

Jing would probably be called a prana (inner wind) of some sort.

Fascinating!

 

I'm a little unclear on "get transmission for sexual tantra"- meaning someone acknowledges the nagpa's declaration that for the nagpa there is no more of being such and such, that they (the nagpa) have laid down the burden, etc., and gives them a document of authenticity and permission to teach Buddhism (in some form or another), based on a practice which is explicitly centered around sexual union?

 

Never heard that acknowledged by anyone before, but I'm not too disturbed to think it's true, since every act in this life is a part of practice in a sense (and I think sexual relations are a healthy thing, for people who love one another- for the most part!).

 

Do you see a triumvirate in Vajrayana practice (other than Buddha-Dharma-Sangha), I'm wondering?

[Marblehead]

Taoism is different because we Taoists don't normally talk about Buddhist dogma.

 

Peace & Love!

Edited October 19, 2009 by Marblehead

[Mark Foote]

Taoism is different because we Taoists don't normally talk about Buddhist dogma.

 

Peace & Love!

 

I'm seeking a clarification from Vajrahridaya about his statement that jing would probably correspond to prana, or "inner wind", in the Tibetan tradition. How can you determine that Taoism is different from Buddhism without this essential clarification, are there elements that correspond to jing-qi-shen in the Tibetan tradition (putting aside the refuge tripitaka of buddha-dharma-sangha)? Ha ha, take that, Mr. M!

Edited October 19, 2009 by Mark Foote

[Marblehead]

I'm seeking a clarification from Vajrahridaya about his statement that jing would probably correspond to prana, or "inner wind", in the Tibetan tradition. How can you determine that Taoism is different from Buddhism without this essential clarification, are there elements that correspond to jing-qi-shen in the Tibetan tradition (putting aside the refuge tripitaka of buddha-dharma-sangha)? Ha ha, take that, Mr. M!

 

 

Okay Mr. Foot,

 

(Sorry, the devil made me do that.)

 

Yes, I saw the conversation and I agree that because of this forum's design discussions of Buddhist and Taoist concepts can take place in nearly any thread. But in the "Why Taoism is Different" thread? I mean, there is a thread titled "What Buddhism and Taoism have in Common" or something like that.

 

Maybe I have a problem. I don't know. Yeah, there are some members here who have a lot of "inner wind".

 

Ooops! I didn't mean that.

 

Peace & Love!

[Apech]

Hi, Apepch7, sure (I think!) I can...

 

 

....

 

 

Mark

 

 

Thanks Mark that's very interesting.

 

 

 

A.

[Vajrahridaya]

Fascinating!

 

I'm a little unclear on "get transmission for sexual tantra"- meaning someone acknowledges the nagpa's declaration that for the nagpa there is no more of being such and such, that they (the nagpa) have laid down the burden, etc., and gives them a document of authenticity and permission to teach Buddhism (in some form or another), based on a practice which is explicitly centered around sexual union?

 

Never heard that acknowledged by anyone before, but I'm not too disturbed to think it's true, since every act in this life is a part of practice in a sense (and I think sexual relations are a healthy thing, for people who love one another- for the most part!).

 

Do you see a triumvirate in Vajrayana practice (other than Buddha-Dharma-Sangha), I'm wondering?

 

Ah, you're not familiar with Vajrayana at all then? Ok, this will not differ from most religious Taoism that in order to do a practice you have to know the techniques, mantras, contemplation, visualization, breathing, body position, etc. In order to do HYT which is a technique, you need to get the transmission for the practice from a qualified master, like in Taoism. Like anything really. Except it's a bit subtler in spirituality because you are getting an energetic kind of permission from a long time lineage.

 

As far as triumvirate... you can read this... Gankyil

[Vajrahridaya]

I'm seeking a clarification from Vajrahridaya about his statement that jing would probably correspond to prana, or "inner wind", in the Tibetan tradition. How can you determine that Taoism is different from Buddhism without this essential clarification, are there elements that correspond to jing-qi-shen in the Tibetan tradition (putting aside the refuge tripitaka of buddha-dharma-sangha)? Ha ha, take that, Mr. M!

 

Oh wait, I didn't really understand what Jing-Qi-Shen was. Sorry. Qi would most likely correspond with prana or voice. I guess Jing would be body and shen would be mind. There are lots of groups of 3's in Vajrayana. There probably is not an exact equivalent.

[gendao]

This is true for the most part. But not even key Daoist principles are understood by the masses. The fact is that whatever one cultivates, they can only get ahead by the capacity to understand each level they attain.

The only one's that can fully understand Buddhism to the T are Buddhas. Even though the teachings within the Sutras are very to the point and clear, the comprehension is still based on the individual cultivator's ability to understand, as well as the wise advisor's understanding, and ability to expound the teachings properly.

The manner of non-attachment is totally correct; do not get attached to each level.

 

YET, even with the Jing, Qi, Shen layout, those teaching it also get stuck in states and can only teach such to their students. There is too many levels that are attained, though not all at once, and one should have mastered the San Hua Jv Ding before even teaching it.

 

How to tell? A master knows that cultivation of any label is simply cultivation, and harnessing the breath, transforming the mundane desires, and changing behavior, lead to wisdom, thus immortality at higher stages, thus enlightenment when all views are dropped.

 

Just simple cultivation of it isn't enough.

 

As for the Jing, Qi, Shen cultivation method, the guidelines are very clear; Celibacy to an extent, and Retention always: Preserves Jing. Transformation of Jing to Qi through MCO, via retention to keep the jing at high levels, as well as non-attachment to states in between; sensations, bliss-states, and abilities that arise: Jing to Qi. Raising the the two to reach the crown; via retention and not wasting Qi through playful escapades of sex, desire indulgence and false thinking, bad habits: Thus stimulating the Crown to such a point where the Yang Qi can become so highly vibrating that it raises one's energy/mind to attain proper wisdom. : Qi to Shen.

At such stage, the body's weaknesses are removed, and the body can thus transform to being a vibrant, yang manifestation... Shen replacing Xu= weakness. At this high level, the 3 flowers (San Hua) reach the crown, with great intensity that energy can thus meet at the crown, clear the body of illnesses, abilities attained, though not all, and one may attain immortality if guided correctly....Dilligent practice, not one moment swaying is needed.

 

In between is where most go wrong. The Buddhist teachings are the same as in the guidelines to attaining enlightenment. In between, there are states which are reached, but not spoken of openly as much as Daoist cultivators...and even Daoist cultivators do not speak frivolously. The processes aren't focused on because they happen naturally with proper guidance and cultivation in the Buddhist school...given one has found a god and wise adviser.

 

There is a science of both. One deals with direct mind transformation which leads to health, vibrant body, clean in and out. The other works the mind and body transformation, which results in the same thing. BUT working mind and body together with intent focus; without controlling the mind in desires, lust, emotions, and behavior, causes more problems faster than the latter.

 

There are two roads to the same source here... Non are faster, and non are slower than the other. It all depends on the mind cultivating. And it doesn't happen from one lifetime of cultivation. It is carried over through countless lifetimes, till at one point and time the cultivation at a certain level is completed. This is also why we see some beings with great spiritual abilities which they attained in this lifetime. Its not because they only began when they were young, or even at an older age. It is because they have always been doing it, for many lifetimes, and in this lifetime we see some of their accomplishments.

 

ALways check virtue first.. which many mock as some religious, moral garbage...very important.

NOICE.

[Vajrahridaya]

It seems like Jing-Qi-Shen stands for so many different things. I don't understand what this pertains to really??

 

Oh ok... I think I just have to read the thread more.

Edited October 19, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[Stigweard]

[Vajrahridaya]

Ok, wait... I've read this before. I remember, from a past post of yours I'm sure. Thanks Stig.

 

Yes so sometimes Jing is I guess bindu or tigle, but contextualized as the red drop in female and white drop in male. Bindu has many different applications.

 

Qi I guess is prana and Shen is mind.

 

Or body, voice and mind.

 

Or body, energy and space.

 

I think the treatment is different, but Taoism is a different system of interpretation so. But yes... I think all major spiritual traditions have these groups of three as we are in that realm. Past, present, future, up, middle, down, left, right, center, etc. We are in the 3rd dimension. At least our brain and senses are. Not sure where my mind is sometimes?

[Marblehead]

The Trilogy of Taoism:

 

The Father: Chi

 

The Mother: The Mystery

 

The Son: The Manifest

 

Chi penetrates Mystery and gives birth to Manifest.

 

Peace & Love!

[Vajrahridaya]

The Trilogy of Taoism:

 

The Father: Chi

 

The Mother: The Mystery

 

The Son: The Manifest

 

Chi penetrates Mystery and gives birth to Manifest.

 

Peace & Love!

 

This is exactly how I've thought of it too. The projective light enters the receptive dark to mix and manifest the rainbow of multitudinousness.

[Marblehead]

This is exactly how I've thought of it too. The projective light enters the receptive dark to mix and manifest the rainbow of multitudinousness.

 

 

Okay V.! Get your mind off sex. We're talking serious businees here. Hehehe.

 

Peace & Love!

[Mark Foote]

[exorcist_1699]

I think the difference between Taoism and Buddhism is in the emphasis, primarily....

 

Taoist jing-qi-shen is different from the seeming Buddhist one not only because it is based on a more detailed qi 's system ( around 20 channels and several hundreds of acupunctural points) , but also because the jing-qi-shen framework is the base that the TCM doctors use it to analyze symptoms and cure patients. That means the complexity of human body-mind relation not only can be studied by few people's meditation and kungfu practice ,but enriched by studying millions of people's abnormal and unbalanced status . In fact, it is always when we get hurt and sick, physically and mentally, that we understand ourselves more and deeper .

 

 

Besides, I have to point out that the Sichuan province , which is one of the important Taoist origins , is located just next to Tibet ; So, we can expect, in fact, is is shown by many historical records , that there are frequent , long lasting intercourses between Taoism and Tibetan Buddhism . The true ,or people may think it is an orthodox view, is that such an intercourse is part of the Chinese cultural legacy.

 

I doubt any dual cultivation with body contact anything high-class or decent , not to speak of whether it evil or not. Of course , you get many religious pictures of Tibetan Buddha in which showing you such a posture , yet such artistic expression may not tell you the truth of things..

Edited October 21, 2009 by exorcist_1699

[Vajrahridaya]

Taoist jing-qi-shen is different from the seeming Buddhist one not only because it is based on a more detailed qi 's system ( around 20 channels and several hundreds of acupunctural points) , but also because the jing-qi-shen framework is the base that the TCM doctors use it to analyze symptoms and cure patients.

 

Just to share a contrast because it was brought up.

 

The Vajrayana system has 84,000 nadis or currents and then the many different chakras and Tibetan Medicine uses the findings to cure patients with the body, prana or winds, energy currents and mind system framework.

 

 

. The true ,or people may think it is an orthodox view, is that such an intercourse is part of the Chinese cultural legacy.

 

Tibet actually was the center of the major trade routes and also shared information with India. Tibetan Medicine is a mixture of Chinese/Ayurveda of the Indians the Siddha medicine, Bon... etc.

[sheng zhen]

The Vajrayana system has 84,000 nadis or currents and then the many different chakras and Tibetan Medicine uses the findings to cure patients with the body, prana or winds, energy currents and mind system framework.

hmm, Ive allways been wondering... is there any written account on all the 84000 meridians and their specific function in diagnosis and treatment? Or is this just a number that has been passed through generations upon generations of people who never really have learned to use them in therapy, but still recklessly use the numbers to make their own practice look better than the rest?

 

I have heard several other numbers. 72, 72000, 144000, some even just say "thousands" or "hundreds". But I suspect very few actually use all the thousands of meridians(nadis... whatever) in real treatments... They probably just use 10-20 of them anyways, right?

Edited October 21, 2009 by sheng zhen

[mat black]

Tibetan Medicine is a mixture of Chinese/Ayurveda of the Indians the Siddha medicine, Bon... etc.

Wow, my 2 favourite systems of medicine. Interesting.

[Marblehead]

 

cheers, all; Mr. Foote (pronounced foot so you can call me Foot, mr. M, if you want to)

 

Hehehe. I will endeavor to call you Mark henceforth. Thanks for laughing with me.

 

Peace & Love!