Why Taoism is different

[Ian]

oh, xenolith, Love is the great deceiver. Maybe it's different for women. I was so in love with my ex-husband that it never dawned on me he had contempt for me, until he was actually hitting me. Sensuality, on the other hand, is quite dependable. If I had judged men's love on how often they wanted to ejaculate inside me, I would have had a much more accurate picture of the true state of their passions.

 

 

I think it's a question here of what the words mean. Xeno is talking, I believe, about a great general impersonal field of love, and not any kind of personal attachment.

[rain]

 

"only when you have melted your soul in compassionate actions, only then does divine grace manifest"....

 

I just reflect..and wonder..the path of non action..non doing...

 

"only when you have melted your soul in compassionate state, only then does divine grace manifest"....

 

 

whos asking?

[dao zhen]

Quite a lot of people can understand and complete ,to some degree, the process of " refining jing into qi ".

In fact, only those having completed it , can they start understanding Taoism , and, comprehend why Taoists

repeatedly emphasize the importance of praxis . If you only finish reading Lao Tzu , then most likely you will think that it is just another good , interesting system of philosophy .

 

And, only those having competed some progress in " refining qi into shen " , do they start understanding , to

some extent , the meaning of Enlightenment in Buddhism.

 

As has been said and written by my Teacher and Friend of The Way:

 

When the two eyes gaze inwardly, two ears hear inwardly, the nose smells inwardly, the tongue rises gently against the hard palate, the whole body remains motionless in the silent sitting posture, the Mind-Will settles inwardly in the Lower Elixir Field, and the Fertilizing Fluid remains indifferent to any temptation;

then and only then are you qualified for further advance in the Pursuit of Tao.

 

So we must endeavor to refill the Jing, Qi and Shen, till these three have become sufficient enough and merged into one---which means the process of Laying the Foundation has successfully come to an end.

 

Without the means and method to follow the Way, are not people truly lost?

[Xienkula1]

"whos asking?"

 

Wuji.

[David]

There is so much knowledge and insight here! Sean, thank you for your invitation to participate.

 

One earlier thread is the nature of science. I'd like to follow it a bit, and see where it may lead.

 

I believe there can be two forms of science. One is the standard science of physics, chemistry, etc. This is objective science, or the scientific method, in which laboratory tools insulate our observations from contamination by our untrustworthy subjective side (random thoughts, emotions, untrustworthy senses of perception). Objective science requires measurement (observation), reasoning, testability, and reproducibility.

 

Another form of science is pure subjective science, in which we observe what goes on inside us in our mental life and on the level of consciousness. Subjective science includes reproducible experimentation, such as application of the traditional mental techniques of Dao, Zen, Buddhism, the Veda, etc. These techniques may include prayer, meditation, Sanyama, asanas, pranayama, etc., depending on what is found to be effective.

 

When discussing subjective science, the notion of states or levels of consciousness can be relevant. Just as imperfections in the eye are automatically mapped and removed by the visual cortex, we are usually unaware of the pattern of dysfunction (stresses) stored in our nervous system. Their purpose is to protect us from overload and keep us functioning, even though with reduced functionality.

 

Stored stress can be understood by an analogy. Every house has fuses or circuit breakers to protect it from fire in case of electrical overload. If you overload an electrical outlet, a fuse burns out or a circuit breaker trips, shutting off the electricity to that circuit. While this protects the house from fire, it also makes the house less functional, since the electricity no longer flows to that outlet.

 

An example shows how stress is stored. If we are almost hit by a car, even if we are not physically injured, the experience can be an overload. It can be too much for us to handle. Our brain responds by storing the stress and shielding us from its impact. We know this because we tend to relive the traumatic experience again and again, in our thoughts, our dreams at night, and in our meditation sessions. We may be left with anger, inability to focus on people and events, or other post-traumatic effects. Our life is negatively affected.

 

How does stored stress make us less functional? Primarily by obscuring clarity of thought. As we live our life, a more or less constant stream of random thoughts (monkey chatter) occupies our mind, preventing us from taking precise, ethical action that interacts efficiently with the universe around us to achieve life-supporting goals. But, fortunately for our sanity, the monkey chatter and other negative effects of stored stress are mapped and hidden from us, so we can function. However, we function at a reduced level. Instead of living in fulfillment and joy, we live vulnerable to the ups and downs of relative joys and suffering.

 

This is what I mean by level of consciousness: it ranges from the ignorance of someone loaded down with stress, barely coping with life, to the knowledge of a spiritual master able to help all in need from his or her own vast resources, based on inner silence, and supported by the entire universe. The development of one's level of consciousness is the whole purpose and justification for subjective science, with its many techniques.

 

All advanced religion and philosophy, whether Dao, Zen, Buddhism, the Veda, or Christianity, talks of something most of us don't typically experience: Heaven within. They urge us to subjective or spiritual growth. Christianity emphasizes the role of divine grace: that we cannot achieve much through our own efforts, but that God wants to help us and bring us to fulfillment through His universal power. I believe that is a helpful philosophy, but it is useful only to the extent that our stored stresses permit us to be receptive to that offered grace. If we are limited in understanding and burdened with ego, our receptivity will not be very great, and suffering in various forms will tend to increase as we get older.

 

If we buy the notion of stored stresses (which, in the absence of direct experience requires a certain leap of faith, since our educational system mostly ignores the scientific research that has shown how simple mental techniques can reduce mental chatter and improve functioning in life), the key to being receptive to divine grace is reducing the amount of stored stress.

 

Besides its ability to cope with sensory and cognitive overload by storing stress, our nervous system also has the ability to eliminate stored stress. In the fuse/circuit analogy, this would be like replacing the fuse or resetting the circuit breaker and restoring proper functioning. How is this done? Through rest. Indeed, the whole purpose of sleep at night is to wash away the stresses accumulated during the day.

 

But sleep is not enough. Research has shown that there is a fourth state of physiology, restful alertness (samadhi), in addition to the basic three (waking, dreaming, and deep sleep) that is necessary for proper functioning in life. (By "proper functioning in life" I mean the experience of unbounded silence and unbounded joy in the midst of dynamic daily activity).

 

By regular practice of deep, effective meditation, it is possible to bring such a deep state of rest to the body that the nervous system can eliminate even deep-rooted stresses. With an effective form of meditation, it takes only a few minutes to begin this process of rapid elimination of stress.

 

Although normally hidden from our awareness, these stresses prevent us from experiencing peace in all situations. They obscure the creativity and intelligence that we can express when we are fully connected to the source of all thoughts within, pure consciousness or awareness, without monkey chatter or other distraction.

 

Living in unbounded silence as a result of our daily practice and divine grace does not require effort, but just the opposite: we learn to be effortless and innocent through deep rest and the elimination of stress. Effortlessness is the ultimate skill of living.

 

With freedom from stress and clarity of thought comes the fulfillment of subjective science in the mastery of life and the expression of universal divine and human Self. We become fully able to live now, without concern for limitations of the past or the unknowability of the future. Actual unity among the material, emotional, spiritual, and silent levels of life, inner and outer, is possible only when the stresses that limit us have been dissolved.

 

David Spector

President,

NSR Meditation/USA

[exorcist_1699]

 

 

So we must endeavor to refill the Jing, Qi and Shen, till these three have become sufficient enough and merged into one---which means the process of Laying the Foundation has successfully come to an end.

 

Without the means and method to follow the Way, are not people truly lost?

 

Regarding "Laying the Foundation" , there are not too many different sayings, the most common three are as follows:

 

1) The stage where release of jing is stopped

 

or

 

2) When you are able to stop breathing as usual ....

 

or

 

3) The Magic Gateway opens ...

 

"Laying the Foundation" is an achievement nothing trivial , it is said ,but something great ; some people even think that it physically implies ,say " from now on forever getting no disease" , " stop aging ", " no need to eat for weeks"..etc.

Edited July 3, 2008 by exorcist_1699

[witch]

I think it's a question here of what the words mean. Xeno is talking, I believe, about a great general impersonal field of love, and not any kind of personal attachment.

 

I find the thought of impersonal love so repellent I had put it out of my mind.

[YMWong]

They are the goals of online taoism.

 

The goals of taoism in reality are, first and foremost, different for different schools and sects of taoism, but even in the ones most heavily influenced by buddhism (like Celestial Teachers or Complete Reality) no one is after emptiness/nothingness as the goal. It is used as a tool --[...]

 

The goal in Daoism, if one really wants to list one, is *becoming One with Dao* (yu Dao he zhen).

 

The Daoist, in her ritual and meditation, reverse time and goes from the *ten thousand beings* (wan wu) back to the Beginning of things i.e. nothingness/emptiness.

 

Only when one's body is empty can Dao come to dwell inside.

 

YM

[dao zhen]

[sheng zhen]

I find the thought of impersonal love so repellent I had put it out of my mind.

Hahaha, wonderful! Maby this thread has something you want to comment on: http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?showto...;highlight=love

 

 

As it was said and written by my Teacher:

Thanks a lot Dao Zhen. That post is inspiration.

[xenolith]

I find the thought of impersonal love so repellent I had put it out of my mind.

No such thing as impersonal Love. You know well about personal attachment. Ian's description is spot-on.

 

Siddhartha sought and succeeded to inundate his self in sensuality, ultimately finding it's limitations. In that sense, it was of tremendous value as the signpost of the dead-end that it was for him and the catalyst to turn his attention in the direction of spiritual growth and ultimately the transformation that his Life is known for. I simply hope for you that you will recognize the signpost.

 

Said now three different ways...all offered with Love.

Edited July 3, 2008 by xenolith

[dao zhen]

[witch]

No such thing as impersonal Love. You know well about personal attachment. Ian's description is spot-on.

 

Siddhartha sought and succeeded to inundate his self in sensuality, ultimately finding it's limitations. In that sense, it was of tremendous value as the signpost of the dead-end that it was for him and the catalyst to turn his attention in the direction of spiritual growth and ultimately the transformation that his Life is known for. I simply hope for you that you will recognize the signpost.

 

Said now three different ways...all offered with Love.

 

 

Personal attachment is what caused my energy to rise, without special practice or a guru or master. The sort of witchcraft I practice contains only personal attachment and sensuality--everything else is dead to me. I am a quite cheerful animal, and have no interest in following Buddha. Christ still pulls me now and again with a twang, but I resist him!

[Lauren Shaw]

QUOTE(exorcist_1699 @ Jul 3 2008, 11:51 AM) *

 

The traditional taoist saying , which at least has a history of around one thousand years from the Tang Dynasty , is :

 

Refining jing into qi, refining qi into shen , refining shen back to nothingness.

As most of people are stuck at the 1st stage, of course, people are seldom told about the final stage.

 

 

-----------------------------------

I also have heard it said as such:

 

Transform Jing to Qi. Transform Qi to Shen. Merge the Shen into Emptiness. Break the Emptiness to Pieces.

 

 

I also was instructed in a new view this last month by my Teacher:

 

1. Merge and become one with the Heart Mind of Heaven and Earth.

 

2. Merge and become one with the Heart Mind of Tao.

 

3. Merge and become one with the Heart Mind of Great Nature.

 

 

Purity / Tranquility / Stillness / Emptiness / Nothingness

 

These seem to me to be the main themes of the Taoism practice I am learning.......

 

--------------------------------------------

 

THANK YOU. This is so simple, so easy, so direct, so descriptive of the Tao I have experienced. It is intuitive and experiential for me. I came to Taoism because it accords with a lifetime of observation of the world and experience of connectedness to the energy of the Universe (the chi of Tao). It is what I lived for many, many years without knowing there was a name for it or that there was a body of learning and knowledge that was available to draw from. So while I deeply understand many of the concepts, the terminology to me is sometimes baffling.

 

I'm finding the discussion interesting and enlightening, but my experience of Tao is that all the learning in the world won't help one connect to the energy of the Universe. It is the empty vessel that can be filled. It is the empty vessel that can let go, the empty vessel that can channel unconditional love (or "kindness" if you will).

 

I'm also troubled by the "celibacy is good" assertions. There is also a Tao of love, and many ancient and traditional teachings that assert that sexual union is good and necessary. I'm not talking of a purely sensual experience. Sexual and emotional union are inherently healing and help one to keep centered. It is a healthy, and for some, necessary part of being human, and of being connected to Tao. Oxytocin is a Good Thing and accounts for some of the differences in Taoist sexual teachings for men vs. women.

 

Or maybe all this is just a Taoist woman's perspective? It will necessarily be different from a man's.

 

In healing,

Lauren

[Dale Dugas]

too many people get stuck on labels.

 

What matters is the journey, not really the path you are on, unless its causing you to self destruct, etc....

 

I do what I can to make a little progress everyday.

 

Be well, and train hard

 

Dale

[Vajrasattva]

Man follows Earth, Earth follows Tao.

 

Tantra says follow Shakti she will lead you to Shiva.

 

Taoism is not "DIFFERENT" it can be found in Tantra, Dzogchen, Shamanism etc.

 

Same principles.

 

Taoism is energy work in its simplicity with out a dogma. The only sutra it has is the unwritten sutra of actual practice & experience on a daily level or in one cosmic moment.

 

Peace

 

Santiago

[beancurdturtle]

Here's a taoist principle: undiscriminating virtue

i dunno, it's strange that it appears to be a very much overlooked element of taoist teaching, and yet to me, it seems to be the most important.

"If you wish to gain merit and become one with the divine, then develop your virtue and extend it to the world.

Let go of all conflict and strife.

Practice unswerving kindness and unending patience. Avoid following impulses and pursuing ambitions which destroy the wholness of your mind.

Neither become obsessed with circumstances, nor forego awareness of them.

To manage the mind, know that there is nothing, and relinquish all attchment."

 

"the first practice is the practice of undiscriminating virtue (being kind to everyone without partiality), just as high awareness of the subtle truth is gained through virtuous conduct and sustaining disciplines, so also is it maintained through these things"

"live a quiet and simple life free of ideas and concepts. find contentment in undiscriminating virtue - the only true power. giving to others selflessly and anonymously, radiating light in all directions."

 

Wouldn't such a person be a man/woman of Tao?

Just a minor point. Assuming you are cultivating "undiscriminating virtue," there would be no expectation of gain like "wish to gain merit." It is just a right way of being. Contentment comes from a state of acceptance and no desire. If you still want to be a sage - you've missed the point. Just be one.

 

Your comment points my thoughts to DDJ 05:

Nature is not kind;

It treats all things impartially.

The Sage is not kind,

And treats all people impartially.

 

Nature is like a bellows,

Empty, yet never ceasing its supply.

The more it moves, the more it yields;

So the sage draws upon experience

And cannot be exhausted.

 

indeed looking for differences and viewing ones own chosen tradition as 'superior' is just the play of ego. superior? no. more applicable for you? sure!

 

oh and did Lao tzu or Chuang Tzu ever speak of jing-qi-shen? not that i know of.. all of this is neo-taoist i believe. could be wrong on this.

The place to be is in contentment and harmony. Like you say, any desire to be special, a master, or spiritually jazzy is ego. Ego is the seat of discontent.

 

But you're talking like a philosophical daoist you silly. For people fascinated by the sizzle instead of the steak, you will be wrong.

 

I am throwing all my efforts into becoming material as possible and enflaming the passions. Personally I think spirituality, purity and longevity are overrated!

The correct spiritual way for your path sister, is to throw all your efforts into becoming material without manifestation of desire. Ok, that's just me BSing. Hehe.

 

I just enjoyed your comment. Probably because a you are right. People drive themselves crazy with desire to find "spirituality, purity and longevity." In all the rush, contentment gets tossed aside like excess baggage.

 

Sometimes a perfect creampuff is contentment, and a creampuff is a material thing. Being material is underrated.

[CosmoGeek]

One earlier thread is the nature of science. I'd like to follow it a bit, and see where it may lead.

 

I believe there can be two forms of science. One is the standard science of physics, chemistry, etc. This is objective science, or the scientific method, in which laboratory tools insulate our observations from contamination by our untrustworthy subjective side (random thoughts, emotions, untrustworthy senses of perception). Objective science requires measurement (observation), reasoning, testability, and reproducibility.

 

Another form of science is pure subjective science, in which we observe what goes on inside us in our mental life and on the level of consciousness. Subjective science includes reproducible experimentation, such as application of the traditional mental techniques of Dao, Zen, Buddhism, the Veda, etc. These techniques may include prayer, meditation, Sanyama, asanas, pranayama, etc., depending on what is found to be effective.

 

Nice post! What you call "standard science," I would call "Western science" since it is clearly rooted in western philosophy. Taoism as a science would be mostly a "subjective" science as you describe. I think both involve systematic study in order to develop understanding of Nature. However, western science requires that results be reproducible to other workers in the field.

 

This requirement for reproducibility eliminates most of (or at least much of) the BS and sloppy science from the collective knowledge base. Western science is obviously extremely powerful, as it has made possible most of the tremendous wonders of the modern world. (Taoist science has also been successful, yielding gunpowder, TCM, Chinese acupuncture, etc., but has had less of a dramatic impact on the modern world overall).

 

But the requirement for reproducibility has its limitations. As an advanced practitioner of western science, it is very clear to me that much (if not most) of the phenomenon in the universe cannot currently be systematically studied in a reproducible, objective way (for example, the idea that violins sound better if you play music for them - purely subjective). This is obvious to many scientists, but not to some others (such as some physicists who think they know everything! ).

 

As powerful as western science is, it is not very good for some things, so there is a need for subjective systems of science. The problem with subjective systems are that it is harder to weed out the BS and sloppy science. How is this accomplished in Taoism? Any thoughts?

 

There has been some interesting cross-pollination between Western and Daoist schools of thought in the 20th century. Some of the smarter Chinese masters of the early 20th century became impressed with the power of openly sharing knowledge as done in Western science. Hence, there was movement that continues today away from a guarded "ancient Chinese secret" mentality toward a more open "there are no secrets" attitude. This movement is probably the most important factor contributing to the flourishing of Taoist ideas in the Western world.

 

In Western science, there is a movement toward "holistic" systems-based approaches (i.e. the whole is more than the sum of its parts) such as Earth System Science (aka the Gaia Hypothesis) in addition to the traditional "reductionist" approaches (i.e. the sum of the parts is the whole). This movement is directly influenced by Taoist philosophy.

[coyote]

I think the first concept of Daoism is Yin and Yang, understood within the context of an original unity.

The I Ching elaborates on Yin and Yang and the Lao Tze and others talk about this. Jing-qi-shen are derived from yin and yang and involve the path from the worldly splitting of unity into yin and yang traveling back to the original unity.

 

To understand yin and yang one has to contrast that with the idea of good and evil. Daoism sees duality in relatedness with tension and relative harmony, whereas good and evil is separateness at war. Daoism is iabout duality while good and evil is a dichotomy. Duality is relatedness with each side defining each other in contrast with autonomy and respect remaining. Dichotomy is separation with each with each side being defined by itself categorically, essentially, and absolutely. You will immediately see the problem with dichotomies if you have read any modern philosophy, literary criticism or social science critiques.

 

The differences between duality and dichotomy have been described in books contrast east and west like Nisbett's Geographies of Thought that is about the more relational view of the world in the east.

Nonaka's book on the Knowledge Creating Company (about business) is also about philosophy. He identifies the problems in organizations in the west come from the dichotomies of nature-humanity, mind-mody, self-other.

 

In my own work as a sociologist i have explained the difference between paradigms based on dichtomies versus contextual reasoning. Dichotomies are defined by assumptions of universal reality, objective truth, rationalist deduction from the mind alone, and fragmented empiricism in which details are handled in a very narrow way. Contextual reasoning uses synthesis to create a systmes theory, iteration to put ideas into practice, interpretation to consider multiple points of view and reflect on one's on bias, and recombination to create new ideas from existing ones drawing on everything that exists as the vast abundrance of the universe.

 

My model of contextual reasoning is consistant with Daoism in all of its manifestation. Daoism is a systems theory because it looks at the connections between all things. The chi meridains are a great example of systems theory. Daoism is also unique in the way it puts general ideas into practice in meticulous detail. Daoism acknowledges that there are different points of view that may have something to contribute, and that contending from one point of view alone is futile, not just beause of the ego attachment, but because things can be seen a different way. Recombination of existing things as source of transformation recognizes looking inside the person for transformation, of balancing and transforming energy, rather than attacking evil things that are assumed to come from the outside (eg germs) which are then attacked from the outside (eg, doctors using drugs.

 

The original concept of duality in Daoism can be used as a foundation for contextual reasoning and systems thinging. Nisbett has argued that this relational way of thinking that is stronger in Asia is more compatible with scientific reasoning. One has to consider something in context to observe its effects and causes.

 

I see dichotomies creeping back into spiritual thinking all the time so it is important to make the basic contrast with Daoism.

[CosmoGeek]

My model of contextual reasoning is consistant with Daoism in all of its manifestation. Daoism is a systems theory because it looks at the connections between all things. The chi meridains are a great example of systems theory. Daoism is also unique in the way it puts general ideas into practice in meticulous detail. Daoism acknowledges that there are different points of view that may have something to contribute, and that contending from one point of view alone is futile, not just beause of the ego attachment, but because things can be seen a different way. Recombination of existing things as source of transformation recognizes looking inside the person for transformation, of balancing and transforming energy, rather than attacking evil things that are assumed to come from the outside (eg germs) which are then attacked from the outside (eg, doctors using drugs.

 

The original concept of duality in Daoism can be used as a foundation for contextual reasoning and systems thinging. Nisbett has argued that this relational way of thinking that is stronger in Asia is more compatible with scientific reasoning. One has to consider something in context to observe its effects and causes.

 

Cool. It's interesting to know that people are using systems approaches in the social sciences similar to what we are doing in the physical sciences.

 

On a deeper level, the notion of cause and effect is perhaps overly simplistic. For example, increased CO2 causes global warming and global warming causes increased CO2. Each one causes the other just as both yin causes yang, and yang causes yin. In the physical sciences, we are calling this "feedback systems." To say simply that one thing causes another thing would give one an incomplete picture (and in the case of global warming, the consequences of misunderstanding can potentially be disastrous for the planet!).

[dao zhen]

It was mentioned earlier that the great unification split into yin and yang. According to the Tao Te Ching by Lao Tzu, "reversal is the movement of the Tao." Both in the sphere of nature and human affairs, when the development of anything brings it to one extreme, a reversal to the other extreme takes place. Everything has its own negation. This is the principle of the Yin and Yang interaction in nature and human affairs.

 

This concept is also associated with the Book of Changes (I Ching): "When the sun has reached its meridian, it declines and when the moon has become full, it wanes." The I Ching also says "Reversal is the way of the Tao." What is true with natural phenomena is also true in human nature.

 

Yin and Yang were created due to the observation of instability in nature. Yin and Yang exist for the stability of nature. For example, in the vacuum near an unstable nucleus, a Yin and Yang pair (electron -positron) was created to render stability to the area. A stable atom exists mainly due to the presence of positive protons and negative electrons. Proper balance and harmony can be maintained by an intermingling of the Yin and Yang, the moon and the sun, the Earth and the Heaven, and the transformation of all things will proceed smoothly. There is an interplay and exchange between the male and female and all things will be produced. The Yang gives the beginning and the Yin completes it.

 

The Yin and Yang concept is very simple. Yet it is quite difficult to understand it in a deep manner.　The concept is derived from the experiences gained by practitioners engaged in the pursuit of Union with Tao. The Yin and Yang interactions that occur in our daily life lie within the logic of our common sense. The successful practice of Yin and Yang in life leads to a great state of harmony. This is the basis of good health and as such is maintained by the Qi, which is both physical and moral. The concept of Yin and Yang is thus the cornerstone of dialectics in Chinese philosophy and Taoism

 

The movement of Tao gives rise to Qi. The spontaneity of Qi gives rise to the interactions of Yin and Yang. Yin and Yang are the opposite expressions of the same reality. Mass and energy are the opposite expressions of the same Qi. Qi is the mass and Qi is the energy, yet Qi is also the transforming force between mass and energy. Energy is represented by Yang and mass by Yin. Yin and Yang are different and opposite; they undergo movement and transformation in the Infinite Emptiness. The union of Yin and Yang becomes harmony. This union of harmony is possible because they are opposite. It is because they are opposite that interactions take place. This is the source of interactions. The Yin and Yang concept is applied to all opposites in the universe, to substance and to motion. For motion and stillness also are intrinsic with Yin and Yang.

 

Thus the Infinite Emptiness is the field; Qi resting is the mass - Yin; Qi in motion is the energy, Yang; and the Qi both resting and in motion is the transforming force.

 

According to Lao Tzu, all things carry Yin and Yang, through the impact of the Qi, harmony is accomplished.

[exorcist_1699]

Nice post!

 

 

 

There has been some interesting cross-pollination between Western and Daoist schools of thought in the 20th century. Some of the smarter Chinese masters of the early 20th century became impressed with the power of openly sharing knowledge as done in Western science. Hence, there was movement that continues today away from a guarded "ancient Chinese secret" mentality toward a more open "there are no secrets" attitude. This movement is probably the most important factor contributing to the flourishing of Taoist ideas in the Western world.

 

 

 

Of course, Taoism is the legacy of human beings, so generally speaking, it should be shared by all people .

 

However , because it is somehow different from science and has similar moral implication , there should be some limitations .

 

Such limitation is not similar to keeping the secret of some critical technology in some industry ,say nuclear technology, but in the sense that you should never let person like Hitler /Stalin know what you are really saying , at least , at critical point .

Edited July 4, 2008 by exorcist_1699

[xenolith]

Personal attachment is what caused my energy to rise, without special practice or a guru or master. The sort of witchcraft I practice contains only personal attachment and sensuality--everything else is dead to me. I am a quite cheerful animal, and have no interest in following Buddha. Christ still pulls me now and again with a twang, but I resist him!

Understood, but again, I hope for you a recognition of that which Siddhartha did. I feel that four times is getting to be a bit much...so I'll now recuse myself from further commentary.

 

Be well upon your path.

[Sunya]

what are your goals witch?

 

i found that chasing pleasure only reinforces the duality of pleasure and pain. why attach to pleasure when pain will knock you right back down? you will never be satisfied. my dog is a great example.. we spoiled him rotten and now all he lives for is food, hes never satisfied.. gobbles up all his food and always wants more. the only reason he ever jumps on your lap is if you have food.

 

so you don't believe in any spiritual stuff i'm guessing? 'you' were a mere accident because of the laws of the universe, a combination of atoms and energy, an animal driven by impulse and desire just trying to be happy and survive. so..death must scare you.

 

i found that chasing pleasure is only an avoidance of the inadequacy of the illusory ego. an inability to face the facts, get at the truth, and really figure out who you are in relation to this reality.

 

i'm glad i never felt such orgasmic bliss.. i'd never want to move on.

[beancurdturtle]

i found that chasing pleasure only reinforces the duality of pleasure and pain.

You are assuming there is a duality. They are actually part of the same continuum. If you are content with either then you experience both fully. Either one is unavoidable, so why avoid them?

 

so you don't believe in any spiritual stuff i'm guessing? 'you' were a mere accident because of the laws of the universe, a combination of atoms and energy, an animal driven by impulse and desire just trying to be happy and survive. so..death must scare you.

 

i found that chasing pleasure is only an avoidance of the inadequacy of the illusory ego. an inability to face the facts, get at the truth, and really figure out who you are in relation to this reality.

Hahaha.

 

Speaking of illusion - it's interesting that you've put a melange of words into her mouth, then reached your own conclusion about what you imagine her to be.

 

The ego is not illusory. It is very real. The illusion is that you are a slave to it - when it really has no power to motivate or control you.

 

i'm glad i never felt such orgasmic bliss.. i'd never want to move on.

That would be true of someone that was a slave to their ego.

 

Peace,