Why Taoism is different

[exorcist_1699]

As a Taoist saying tells us :

 

What is real (that transmits the Taoist truth ) is just told in one sentence.

What are false can be found in thousands of books .

 

(真傳一句話, 假傳萬卷書 )

 

 

 

Maybe a little exaggerated , but it tells us how simple the Taoist truth is . It also clearly expresses how different the spoken truth ( in between two persons ) from the written "truth" of Taoism (to the public) .

 

Besides, even only coming across this simple Taoist truth in people's lifetime seems always difficult ; if they do come across it , they may not recognize it ; even they recognize it , they may not practice it; even they practice it , they may not be persistent in doing it up to success. In fact, only those who get "good" karma are able to meet Tao in their lifetime ...

Edited September 5, 2008 by exorcist_1699

[doc benway]

Is Taoism really Different?

No

[Patrick Brown]

I've been trying to study more about Taoism and it's difficult but easy....

 

No

I figure most of us agree with that.

 

"turn on, tune in, drop out"

 

I recently got turned on!

 

[mat black]

I've always preffered to see the similarities that taoism has with other schools, not to exclude, contrast and make distinctions. So here's some similarities in regard to virtue & kindness and the 3 treasures.

 

VIRTUE

 

Taoism: "The sage has no set mind, He regards the wish of the people as his own wish. He is kind to the kind, he is also kind to the unkind. This is the true virtue of kindness. The saint trusts those who are trustworthy. He also trusts those who are not trustworthy. This is the true virtue of trust". - Lao Tzu, TTC

 

Buddha: "Put away all hindrances, let your mind full of love pervade one quarter of the world, and so too the second quarter, and so the third, and so the fourth.

And thus the whole wide world, above, below, around and everywhere , altogther continue to pervade with love-filled thought, abounding, sublime, beyond measure, free from hatred and ill-will." - Buddha, Digha Nikaya

 

 

THE 3 TREASURES

 

Most are aware that taosim calls them jing, qi, shen. And the purpose of our practice is to treasure them -cultivate, nurture & refine thim in order to return to oneness with the Tao.

That's Taoist terminology.

 

Buddhist terminology in this regard is very similar:

"What are your treasures? They are your very own Treasury of the Tathagata. If you want to regain your Treasury of the Tathagata, you first have to protect your essence, energy, and spirit." - Hsuan Hua

 

 

.........these examples show that there is similarity on important principles

Edited September 11, 2008 by mat black

[林愛偉]

As a Taoist saying tells us :

 

What is real (that transmits the Taoist truth ) is just told in one sentence.

What are false can be found in thousands of books .

 

(真傳一句話, 假傳萬卷書 )

Maybe a little exaggerated , but it tells us how simple the Taoist truth is . It also clearly expresses how different the spoken truth ( in between two persons ) from the written "truth" of Taoism (to the public) .

 

Besides, even only coming across this simple Taoist truth in people's lifetime seems always difficult ; if they do come across it , they may not recognize it ; even they recognize it , they may not practice it; even they practice it , they may not be persistent in doing it up to success. In fact, only those who get "good" karma are able to meet Tao in their lifetime ...

 

 

That saying didn't point to Daoism, only truth. There's no such thing as "Daoist Truth" and"Buddhist Truth" and all the other schools of thought's truth. Truth is truth no mater what eyes you view it in. The problem is within the person seeing.

 

Daoism had thousands of books as well, but a great many were burned to a great degree. So what we have now, not just in the west, but in China also, are snippets of texts written by many great sages, not everything. By snippets, I mean out of a thousand, maybe 400 books. Out of 400, maybe 120 books, etc.

 

 

Remember, Daoism was not called Daoism before Laozi. It was basically 方式(fangshi)= style of living. People never said they are Daoist, only that they follow they way or destiny, = 随缘 (suiyuan), or 修道(xiudao) = meaning to cultivate the way. They never labeled it that as a foundational term to describe their mind.

 

It originally was made up of astrology, cosmology, agriculture, and societal ethics before Laozi came. Then soceity became more materialistic, egotistic, and he Laozi lays out a societal map so people can begin doing good things, and correcting their living style. Then they can be ready for cultivation. But it never reached on a mass societal scale like society was like when Shen Nong was around.

 

The same phrase is spoken in Buddhism as well. And I heard that wisdom phrase spoken by a Muslim in regards to the Koran... hehe

 

The phrase is a lesson on not talking too much of messy, flippant things. Not to use back talk, angry talk, jealous talk, and cover it up with fancy words that look like wisdom.

 

Be still, non-dual, and calm in speech, character and behavior. That is a fundamental guideline for all humans to follow. Just because the person does not call themselves Daoist doesn't mean they are not cultivating the way=修道(xiudao)

 

I have a story of such a meeting:

 

I was on top of Taishan one morning,and walked into Bi Xia Ci (Azure Cloud Temple, home to Wang Mu)

I didn't speak Chinese well enough, but I spoke with one of the monks there. He thought I was from Wudang Mountain because of my clothing and that I carried a sword with me. He complained that because I didn't know the terminology of Chinese Daoism, that my cultivation wasn't real.

Then I said one sentence to him, which caused him to stop dead in his tracks...

"regardless of the language, is Daoism so limited that the immortals and gods are too arrogant to teach in other languages than Chinese? "

 

The next sentence I said was: " Language is what caused many sages to become demons. Regardless of the language, the overall truth can be comprehended with just one moment of stillness. No terminology can bring that kind of clarity to the mind. Only one's unmoved seeing."

 

It was a very interesting day after that.

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

Edited September 11, 2008 by 林愛偉

[Gaxtal]

[林愛偉]

[exorcist_1699]

I also have story to tell:

 

I never believed in qi gong when I was in my 20's ,and , vieweing it something strange ;Taoism , to me , is solely a wonderful philosophy . Any friend who mentioned the miracle of qi gong to me would be laughed by me with sympathizing look on him .

 

Then , one day many years ago, it was when I participated in the Guangzhou Trade Fair on a business trip . As I walked aimlessly between different exhibition halls nearly after the end of a whole day's work , I found a guy who set up a table/booth at the corner of a hall , selling some kind of qi-gong/TCM related products (cushion , bags..etc) ; only because of curiosity , I approached and sat down beside him and started a casual, qi gong-related talk . In fact , there was nothing special in the talk's process , which took around 15~20 minutes , only his piercing eyes on me seemed bewildering ...

 

After returning from Guangzhou ,China to my living place (at that time , Hong Kong) , on the same night , I then carelessly paid attention to my dian-tian ( I had been told about the area, but never believed it anything special ) before sleeping ,then....sometime , you can get drunk without drinking any wine..

Edited September 21, 2008 by exorcist_1699

[Rahasya]

I am throwing all my efforts into becoming material as possible and enflaming the passions. Personally I think spirituality, purity and longevity are overrated!

 

 

A fine Tantric sentiment.

 

Someone asked Buddha for a teaching for those who can't/won't take an attitude of denying the worldly, becoming renunciates. Buddhist Tantra was born.

 

We like drunken sobriety, ridiculous seriousness, disciplined abandon, and other fun paradoxical practices.

 

... my take on the topic..

 

Taoist practice, the utter intensity of technique-mastery is for me it's outstanding quality. magnificient job done of preserving ancient discoveries, keeping them accessible.

Edited September 15, 2008 by Rahasya

[Spiritual_Aspirant]

I suppose the main difference you can see on Taoism vs other paths is it has the significant imprint of the Chinese mindset--practicality and rootedness to the physical plane.

 

Although in the inner teachings, truth is universal, only the methods are different. I've read somewhere and other high practitioners of Yoga concurred that Lao-Tzu, Rama, Padmasambhava, Nefertem are all incarnations of the same Higher Being. So the differences in the path I think are more due to the cultural differences of people.

[rookie]

Buddhism's Jing Qi Shen is simple:

 

Precepts, Samadhi and Wisdom.

 

Precepts cultivate the Jing, store the yuan qi from wasting( wasting through day-dreaming,false thinking basically sexual indulgence to extremes, and controlling desires through understanding their origin.).

 

Samadhi transforms such jing to Qi, through concentration and cultivation of the mind and body; By the not wasting of one's essence, they will hav the strength and will to uphold the states through concentration. This will naturally transform one's mind: Jing, Qi.

 

Wisdom is the outcome of purifying the heart and mind through seeing that all desires, emotions and views are actually false (it would be seen as an outcome of attaining true wisdom), thus leading to a vibrant body, resulting in a long life, as well as attaining true spiritual wisdom, unaltered wisdom.

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

 

 

P.S.- Daoism, seen as different doesn't make you more Immortal, or having more abilities. In views of separation, ego arises, views of ego, a self, living beings, and a life span...thus leading to arrogance, anger, greed and ignorance.

 

Buddhism cultivates the Buddha in the Heart, which results in attaining Buddhahood, which is complete in wisdom, and spiritual abilities. And is definetly not what most people ASSUME it is.

 

Daoism cultivates the Dan Tian; to attain immortality and eventually attain enlightenment. The problem is, there is less focus on virtue and moral practice in "Modern" Daoism, and more focus on spiritual abilities and longevity, which doesn't lead one to enlightenment right away../actually it slows one down.

 

The fact is, if the mind is pure, everything is pure. Attaching to views only caises more afflictions. THat is not true cultivation of the Way.

 

All of the Qigong and Neigong and Spiritual abilities will do no good if one still has ignorance as their friend, greed as the father and anger as the mother. One will only remain ignorant, and stuck in their own conditions.

 

Basically, upholding the view of differences only causes more arguing in the long run, views of arrogance, and self, ego. Its not worth it. It doesn't make one a better cultivator.

 

Instead, look at the similarities, and how they actually speak very similar teachings to an extent. This way, more people will want to learn about them, and begin a proper foundation of Educational Cultivation.

If all people see is bickering about which is better, then they will only remain confused, and become arrogant fools.

 

If one can not tell, through wisdom mind, the differences of expedients as expedients, then they should not comment frivolously about expedients. It only creates more karma of the mouth and mind... not fun.

 

As such, living beings will only understand as much as they have the capacity for.

 

Peace,

Lin

 

*** I had added one word to the 3rd paragraph after the "P.S." I put it in quotations: "Modern"

 

 

Thank you, this is a very good post, for most members of this board are of chasing some power of skill. Very few seem to be really interested in the path of simplicity.

 

I want to comment on this paragraph:

" Daoism cultivates the Dan Tian; to attain immortality and eventually attain enlightenment. The problem is, there is less focus on virtue and moral practice in "Modern" Daoism, and more focus on spiritual abilities and longevity, which doesn't lead one to enlightenment right away../actually it slows one down. "

 

Yes, the many are seeking despearely for the powers, getting very involved in the details of some expeience, so chasing another. The forest has been lost for the trees.

 

I have had the priviledge to work with two Daoist teachers who were born and raised in China and were immersed in taoism from an early age. These are the only teachers of qigong, tai-chi or anything slightly taoist in nature that ever mentioned virtue. And yes, virtue was mentioned often. In one case it was as simple as using generosity to help yourself overcome attachment (greed), so that one helps balance out and eventually replace the other. Jing energy is drained by desire but cultivated by generosity. Qi energy is drained by agressin and cultivated by compassion. Shen energy is drained by thoughts and cultivated by wisdom.

 

I don't want to get off track here, and I am not an expert of any kind. But I want to mention an example from recent posts on this board of a popular American Daoist teacher with obvious character problems but all this is excused by the fact that he has "the power". So he attracts students that are seeking some power.

 

I think the true path is so simple that we miss it. The teachings become a distraction. Isn't it true that real daoist traditional teaching took quite a number of years to reach levels of teaching that are chased after and marketed to the masses way too fast now?

[宁]

Thank you, this is a very good post, for most members of this board are of chasing some power of skill. Very few seem to be really interested in the path of simplicity.

 

I want to comment on this paragraph:

" Daoism cultivates the Dan Tian; to attain immortality and eventually attain enlightenment. The problem is, there is less focus on virtue and moral practice in "Modern" Daoism, and more focus on spiritual abilities and longevity, which doesn't lead one to enlightenment right away../actually it slows one down. "

 

Yes, the many are seeking despearely for the powers, getting very involved in the details of some expeience, so chasing another. The forest has been lost for the trees.

 

I have had the priviledge to work with two Daoist teachers who were born and raised in China and were immersed in taoism from an early age. These are the only teachers of qigong, tai-chi or anything slightly taoist in nature that ever mentioned virtue. And yes, virtue was mentioned often. In one case it was as simple as using generosity to help yourself overcome attachment (greed), so that one helps balance out and eventually replace the other. Jing energy is drained by desire but cultivated by generosity. Qi energy is drained by agressin and cultivated by compassion. Shen energy is drained by thoughts and cultivated by wisdom.

 

I don't want to get off track here, and I am not an expert of any kind. But I want to mention an example from recent posts on this board of a popular American Daoist teacher with obvious character problems but all this is excused by the fact that he has "the power". So he attracts students that are seeking some power.

 

I think the true path is so simple that we miss it. The teachings become a distraction. Isn't it true that real daoist traditional teaching took quite a number of years to reach levels of teaching that are chased after and marketed to the masses way too fast now?

 

 

 

Actually our greatest sin is that we know too little and assume to much.

With daoism is really the same: too many come and tell us what is it, and what it is not. Criticism, and more and more misinformed opinions...

We forget that Dao is just a word, and represents the force that rules and creates universes. And our hearts are connected to it, on a deeper level. While we chase facts and fiction outside of us, the real Dao lingers, rusty, within each of us...

How do you think we can solve this?

[metzu]

It is different because it's only true teacher is nature itself.even though we have books passd on to us that attempt to show us the Way ,it is an inside job. All the books and teachers in the world can share their illumination, I kind of like the idea that the ancients didn't tell anyone about it, I don't think one who has become enlightened would need to fix or help anyone else, they would accept that everything is happening exactly as it is supposed to happen. Non action , to me means just that, let people,places and things happen as their nature calls them to respond. Not that I have even come close to doing it. I have not gotten into the religiouis concept of taoism, I have found all religions set themselves up to control and manipulate, the mind and body. Taoism as I see it philosophically sets one free to explore beyond heaven and earth, which I see as strawdogs just like you and myself. So we bounce between the two Sometimes in heaven sometimes rooted in the mud. This is normal for us as we seek to let go of all attactments and desires...............which brings on a seperation depression.....individually...I beleive we all live in our own universe, that we are creating as each of us percieves it. Why did Lao Tzu start off with the eternal Tao was unexpressible, then go on to express his comprehensions of what it was. Illuminating, interesting, still limited because of all the words. yet not truly enlightening. I have recently been thinking that Jesus and Buddha were really not enlightened beings, or we would never have even heard about them.

[rookie]

Actually our greatest sin is that we know too little and assume to much.

With daoism is really the same: too many come and tell us what is it, and what it is not. Criticism, and more and more misinformed opinions...

We forget that Dao is just a word, and represents the force that rules and creates universes. And our hearts are connected to it, on a deeper level. While we chase facts and fiction outside of us, the real Dao lingers, rusty, within each of us...

How do you think we can solve this?

 

 

neti neti

[metzu]

neti neti

I dis agree with the premise of sin, as I see God as another strawdog,and this is a created word confering judgement of a god concept.

Even so Dao is....... just a word and another straw dog.

Maybe the question we should be asking is "after dao what"?

[Wayfarer64]

my 2cents- It is different from most other spiritual questings because the practicioners are always part of the process that becomes the experience... in other words dogma has no real context to get a grip... this is due to the basic idea that all there is - is change.

 

we are dust in the wind and that is what terrifies so many into spiritual questing at first - religion as a crutch as it were. I find no crutch offered in Taoism. What is - IS.

 

We just deal with it as we learn more of reality's ways.

 

It all becomes the one -which is constant change and we are all just a part there of, not seperate not differentiated from the spirit or the power or the glory -but part of that essence we know as life...

 

thanks Sean for the opportunity to share!

[metzu]

my 2cents- It is different from most other spiritual questings because the practicioners are always part of the process that becomes the experience... in other words dogma has no real context to get a grip... this is due to the basic idea that all there is - is change.

 

we are dust in the wind and that is what terrifies so many into spiritual questing at first - religion as a crutch as it were. I find no crutch offered in Taoism. What is - IS.

 

We just deal with it as we learn more of reality's ways.

 

It all becomes the one -which is constant change and we are all just a part there of, not seperate not differentiated from the spirit or the power or the glory -but part of that essence we know as life...

 

thanks Sean for the opportunity to share!

My name is actually Joe. Even so what you have shared is on time,the only thing I would change is "we deal with it as we learn more about nature's ways. Reality is an individual thing and there are many billions of individuals all going there own ways no matter how they may think otherwise. We are not capable of doing otherwise because no matter the circumstance it always comes down to we make all our own choices, even when the guy infront of us has a shotgun to our heads.

[exorcist_1699]

Everything is judged by Time and history. Animal so huge as dinosaurs, human beings so wicked and powerful as Hilter and Stalin, all are judged by Time/ history . This fact conversely shows us how important Toaist claim of free of aging ,free of the passing of times . Although it, together with the capability of curing diseases or not , are two important criteria to judge our practice ,is always accused by many simple-minded guys as exaggerated or misleading people to wrong destination; however, in all Taoist writings ,the phenomena is repeatedly recorded as an important proof to testify the correctness of our practice. Unable to stop the "biological clock " or even reverse it , is definitely unacceptable to the Taoist masters.

 

Does Buddhism also talk about it ? Of course, it does, only mediocre monks deny it ,stubbornly sticking to afterlife , unproductive mindlessness or morals without any proof. Any careful reading of Buddhist classics ,documents,monk's biography ..will reveal this to you.

 

If a Buddhist/Taoist practitioner can't cure his/her or others' diseases( including aging), I have to say, definitely there is something very wrong in his/her practice .

Edited September 24, 2008 by exorcist_1699

[metzu]

Everything is judged by Time and history. Animal so huge as dinosaurs, human beings so wicked and powerful as Hilter and Stalin, all are judged by Time/ history . This fact conversely shows us how important Toaist claim of free of aging ,free of the passing of times . Although it, together with the capability of curing diseases or not , are two important criteria to judge our practice ,is always accused by many simple-minded guys as exaggerated or misleading people to wrong destination; however, in all Taoist writings ,the phenomena is repeatedly recorded as an important proof to testify the correctness of our practice. Unable to stop the "biological clock " or even reverse it , is definitely unacceptable to the Taoist masters.

 

Does Buddhism also talk about it ? Of course, it does, only mediocre monks deny it ,stubbornly sticking to afterlife or morals without any proof. Any careful reading of Buddhist classics ,documents,monk's biography ..will reveal this to you.

 

If a Buddhist/Taoist practitioner can't cure his/her or others' diseases( including aging), I have to say, definitely there is something very wrong in his/her practice .

All I can respond to that is "judge nothing and, nothing, will be able judge you. Doing time is a prison of it's own

History is anything anyone wants to say happened,so why pay attention,to the gossip passed on by someone who doesn't have a clue beyond living in the past. Are not teachers and masters and those who think and believe they are sages anymore then straw dogs.

Edited September 24, 2008 by metzu

[exorcist_1699]

In stead of being trapped in all those philosophical bullshits, which people can keep on talking , talking....for years, I prefer to rely on more concrete criteria:

 

1) After practicing your cultivation for 1-2 years, are you forever free of diseases ( a broken arm in an accident is another story) ?

 

2) Do the wrinkles on your face recede after practicing Taoist/Buddhist qigong? Your withered face brightened again? your mind now more peaceful , free of worries ?

Edited September 26, 2008 by exorcist_1699

[宁]

I dis agree with the premise of sin, as I see God as another strawdog,and this is a created word confering judgement of a god concept.

Even so Dao is....... just a word and another straw dog.

Maybe the question we should be asking is "after dao what"?

i know a better way:

mental jackoff, and there are plenty good at it around - helps spending time in a fashionable manner

[metzu]

In stead of being trapped in all those philosophical bullshits, which people can keep on talking , talking....for years, I prefer to rely on more concrete criteria:

 

1) After practicing your cultivation for 1-2 years, are you forever free of diseases ( a broken arm in an accident is another story) ?

 

2) Do the wrinkles on your face recede after practicing Taoist/Buddhist qigong? Your withered face brightened again? your mind now more peaceful , free of worries ?

[/quote

exorcist_1699,

My answer is no to both of your questions.

Joe

Edited September 26, 2008 by metzu

[metzu]

i know a better way:

mental jackoff, and there are plenty good at it around - helps spending time in a fashionable manner

(lol)

[adam mizner]

well said, well said.

metta

Adam

 

 

Buddhism's Jing Qi Shen is simple:

 

Precepts, Samadhi and Wisdom.

 

Precepts cultivate the Jing, store the yuan qi from wasting( wasting through day-dreaming,false thinking basically sexual indulgence to extremes, and controlling desires through understanding their origin.).

 

Samadhi transforms such jing to Qi, through concentration and cultivation of the mind and body; By the not wasting of one's essence, they will hav the strength and will to uphold the states through concentration. This will naturally transform one's mind: Jing, Qi.

 

Wisdom is the outcome of purifying the heart and mind through seeing that all desires, emotions and views are actually false (it would be seen as an outcome of attaining true wisdom), thus leading to a vibrant body, resulting in a long life, as well as attaining true spiritual wisdom, unaltered wisdom.

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

 

 

P.S.- Daoism, seen as different doesn't make you more Immortal, or having more abilities. In views of separation, ego arises, views of ego, a self, living beings, and a life span...thus leading to arrogance, anger, greed and ignorance.

 

Buddhism cultivates the Buddha in the Heart, which results in attaining Buddhahood, which is complete in wisdom, and spiritual abilities. And is definetly not what most people ASSUME it is.

 

Daoism cultivates the Dan Tian; to attain immortality and eventually attain enlightenment. The problem is, there is less focus on virtue and moral practice in "Modern" Daoism, and more focus on spiritual abilities and longevity, which doesn't lead one to enlightenment right away../actually it slows one down.

 

The fact is, if the mind is pure, everything is pure. Attaching to views only caises more afflictions. THat is not true cultivation of the Way.

 

All of the Qigong and Neigong and Spiritual abilities will do no good if one still has ignorance as their friend, greed as the father and anger as the mother. One will only remain ignorant, and stuck in their own conditions.

 

Basically, upholding the view of differences only causes more arguing in the long run, views of arrogance, and self, ego. Its not worth it. It doesn't make one a better cultivator.

 

Instead, look at the similarities, and how they actually speak very similar teachings to an extent. This way, more people will want to learn about them, and begin a proper foundation of Educational Cultivation.

If all people see is bickering about which is better, then they will only remain confused, and become arrogant fools.

 

If one can not tell, through wisdom mind, the differences of expedients as expedients, then they should not comment frivolously about expedients. It only creates more karma of the mouth and mind... not fun.

 

As such, living beings will only understand as much as they have the capacity for.

 

Peace,

Lin

 

*** I had added one word to the 3rd paragraph after the "P.S." I put it in quotations: "Modern"

[Wayfarer64]

My name is actually Joe. Even so what you have shared is on time,the only thing I would change is "we deal with it as we learn more about nature's ways. Reality is an individual thing and there are many billions of individuals all going there own ways no matter how they may think otherwise. We are not capable of doing otherwise because no matter the circumstance it always comes down to we make all our own choices, even when the guy infront of us has a shotgun to our heads.

 

 

thanks aplenty- I agree with the nature/reality diferentiation- I have to typw fast & loose and get going here as I only have a 20 minute window each time I'm at the library - but I have been promised my PC back soon!- love to all- Pat