Why Taoism is different

[metzu]

thanks aplenty- I agree with the nature/reality diferentiation- I have to typw fast & loose and get going here as I only have a 20 minute window each time I'm at the library - but I have been promised my PC back soon!- love to all- Pat

 

Libraries are very handy places, I have been in the same situation myself at times.

Joe

[Tozan]

As Lin points out the Tao and the Buddha Shakyamuni's Dharma are very much akin.

 

The Ch'an (Zen) schools in particular are thought to have resulted from a fusion of Buddhist and Taoist thought and practice.

 

The famous Zen saying of Bodhidharma (Daruma) could easily have come from the Tao Te Ching.

 

"A special transmission outside the scriptures

No reliance on words or letters

Direct pointing to the heart of humanity

Seeing into one's own nature."

 

Tozan

[林愛偉]

As Lin points out the Tao and the Buddha Shakyamuni's Dharma are very much akin.

 

The Ch'an (Zen) schools in particular are thought to have resulted from a fusion of Buddhist and Taoist thought and practice.

 

The famous Zen saying of Bodhidharma (Daruma) could easily have come from the Tao Te Ching.

 

"A special transmission outside the scriptures

No reliance on words or letters

Direct pointing to the heart of humanity

Seeing into one's own nature."

 

Tozan

 

 

While developing in China the already developed Chan school of India was full and well grounded.

Bodhidharma brought the lineage of the Mind to Mind transmission of Dhyana from Shakyamuni Buddha Bodhidharma was the 28th Patriarch of the Dhyana Cultivation school. When coming to China, so people can recognize the teachings, the language barrier played an important role in the tranferring/translating of Sutras from Sanskrit to Chinese. So, yet language was borrowed, yet the cultivation school was already established and developed.

 

 

Its just that the Chinese Patriarchs of the Dhyana school are more renowned because of the vast culture of spreading the word in China...lol India also never was a country of complete Buddhists, so it wasn't revered as highly as it was in China, hence the publicity China gets for Buddhism.

 

As it developed in China, it had to fuse with the cultural establishment of the time, or no one would understand and or even bother. Its like that now, and has always been like that. So, in China, the intermingling of Confucianism, Daoism and Buddhism played an important role in the propagating of the teachings, as wella s the deeper rooting and development of Chinese culture.

 

They all help each other because of the virtue and moral teachings within them. Without those teachings, it would be deviant !

 

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

[Tozan]

While developing in China the already developed Chan school of India was full and well grounded.

Bodhidharma brought the lineage of the Mind to Mind transmission of Dhyana from Shakyamuni Buddha Bodhidharma was the 28th Patriarch of the Dhyana Cultivation school.

 

As it developed in China, it had to fuse with the cultural establishment of the time, or no one would understand and or even bother. Its like that now, and has always been like that.

 

Yes, this is correct. The first Dhyana (Zen) Buddhist was Mahakasyapa, who signalled his understanding of the Buddha Shakyamuni's teaching by smiling when the Tathagata held up a flower.

 

But Zen Buddhism's deep absorption of Taoist thought was more than cultural fusion. Zen teachers rely far less on words than others do. The Zen practice of "fixing the mind in its natural state" is as bafflingly (to many) simple as Lao Tzu's admonition to "just see."

 

Many other Buddhist traditions also developed in China, ranging from the Tibet-born Kalachakra Tantra to the wonderful Tien Tai (Tendai) meditation of Ch'i (Shamatha) and Kuan (Vipashyana) to the Hua Yen (Jodo Shin) school emphasizing devotion to Buddha Amitabha. Taken altogether they offer something for every sort of seeker.

 

I think the meditative Qigong taught by the I Yen school of Taoism is essentially the tantric practice taught in India as Candali ("inner fire") and in Tibet as gTummo. But the Qigong method is simple and practical, emphasizing caution in a step-by-step approach, whereas many tantric practices are like catching a tiger by the tail.

 

Tozan

[林愛偉]

Yes, this is correct. The first Dhyana (Zen) Buddhist was Mahakasyapa, who signalled his understanding of the Buddha Shakyamuni's teaching by smiling when the Tathagata held up a flower.

 

But Zen Buddhism's deep absorption of Taoist thought was more than cultural fusion. Zen teachers rely far less on words than others do. The Zen practice of "fixing the mind in its natural state" is as bafflingly (to many) simple as Lao Tzu's admonition to "just see."

 

Many other Buddhist traditions also developed in China, ranging from the Tibet-born Kalachakra Tantra to the wonderful Tien Tai (Tendai) meditation of Ch'i (Shamatha) and Kuan (Vipashyana) to the Hua Yen (Jodo Shin) school emphasizing devotion to Buddha Amitabha. Taken altogether they offer something for every sort of seeker.

 

I think the meditative Qigong taught by the I Yen school of Taoism is essentially the tantric practice taught in India as Candali ("inner fire") and in Tibet as gTummo. But the Qigong method is simple and practical, emphasizing caution in a step-by-step approach, whereas many tantric practices are like catching a tiger by the tail.

 

Tozan

 

[Pietro]

And yet, at the time of Lao Tzu, there were teachings about empiness that predates the arrival of any buddhist teachings in China. An example of those are present in the Nei Yeh as translated by Harold Roth.

[sheng zhen]

And yet, at the time of Lao Tzu, there were teachings about empiness that predates the arrival of any buddhist teachings in China. An example of those are present in the Nei Yeh as translated by Harold Roth.

Or at the taobums... here: http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?showtopic=843

[Wayfarer64]

from the ancients to us the moderns we glean wisdom from many sources, knowing that deep within each of us is the truest source... the unifier of all life and intellect/wisdom/knowledge-

 

some call it the Tao - It keeps us looking back and foreward and inward and outward and each of us takes what we will from these activities and still we differentiate and enjoy our differences with great joy or other feelings - its all good to me - even the crap that annoys me sometimes -

 

love to all- Pat

[seadog]

from the ancients to us the moderns we glean wisdom from many sources, knowing that deep within each of us is the truest source... the unifier of all life and intellect/wisdom/knowledge-

 

some call it the Tao - It keeps us looking back and foreward and inward and outward and each of us takes what we will from these activities and still we differentiate and enjoy our differences with great joy or other feelings - its all good to me - even the crap that annoys me sometimes -

 

love to all- Pat

 

Thats it,thats it, thats it,.

yes,no,yes,no

either way thats it.

 

Mind like an ice breaker.

[Wayfarer64]

Thats it,thats it, thats it,.

yes,no,yes,no

either way thats it.

 

Mind like an ice breaker.

 

 

Is an ice breaker like a pick-up line!? Maybe I'm on to something after all!!

 

& hey if you like my thoughts here please buy my book- the Wayfearer Sonnets -that Sean has so kindly added to the banners here - I can use the sales and will send an autographed thank you note to any TaoBum who asks for one !

 

in the mean time I'll just keep meditating for peace and better days ahead!-

Pat

[TheTaoist]

As we all know, Tao is just a word for something that could not be described. By the best means is Tao "the way" to merge with nature, while nature stands for the functioning of everything happening in the universe.

Taoism is humans, animals and materials endeavor to get closer to Tao. That happens always and everywhere and makes everything work.

Acordingly Taoism could not be compared to anything, because it already contains everything.

It is no religion, even though certain groups of humans are more concious about teir goal to merge with nature than others.

Everybody and everything has a spirit, but don't try to compare one spirit to another. This is imposible because that is where we are all connected. The total result of all spirits makes the "universal spirit" or "universal wisdom".

Taoism is just the word for an old way to understand this.

[picnic]

yawn::: *drinks green tea* ...............

[Wayfarer64]

People of many belief systems drink green tea...

 

And not only Taoists "become one" with their tea...

 

Still it is far better for one to take green tea rather than coffee...

 

Yet & still I drink coffee some mornings... I can choose to ignore my own knowledge & act as if ignorant when it comes to being one with many things that aren't very good for me...

 

There is no, (or very little)- judgement -just observation to contend with...

[exorcist_1699]

A comparison between taoist method and the Zen's , although not suitable for beginners, is , however, advantageous to people who already attain some understanding / experience of spiritual cultivation . It also can reveal to us some of the most secret part of human intelligence ( or universe 's intelligence ) that trivial Science , such as psychology , can never tell .

 

To taoists, the existence of jing-qi-shen process is undoubted , what the Zen's genius does is just "skipping" jing and qi , go directly to shen (MIND) level , polish it and upgrade it to the status of being a Buddha( King of Emptiness) ;However, it is only those talents and genius, who follow this way, can really " assimilate" and sublimate jing and qi ; to most other guys, they are more likely entangled in some kind of unproductive spiritual stillness , which , although giving them a sense of peace and tranquility,is, in fact a trap that ruins their lifelong effort...

 

Same as western theology and many other religions' praying , without following the taoist jing-qi-shen framework , Zen's Enlightenment is difficult to evade from being labeled as some kind of mysticism .

Edited November 18, 2008 by exorcist_1699

[longbai]

watch the movie Samsara, its about a monk who realizes that being celibate isn't the answer.. you have to experience samsara to truly understand it. but then a teaching comes to him "is it better to satisfy 1000 desires or conquer just one?" he was so enveloped in desire that it grew more and more, soon greed came upon him.. he even cheated on his wife. he becomes aware of this and truly realizes the meaning of the teachings through experience. that is why it is called the wheel of samsara, its a circle.. it never ends once you step inside of it. the desire is never quenched, the wheel never stops moving, the suffering never ends.

 

 

Nothing is different...All is all that there is... there can be nothing outside of all that is. Taoism, Buddhism, Christianity, Shamanism, etc. are all within all that is.... just facets of the same gem.

 

all things are mental

all things exhibit correspondence... as above, so below

all things vibrate

all things exhibit polarity

all things exhibit rhythm

all things are subject to cause and effect

all things exhibit gender

 

We follow the path (facet) that resonates within us.

[Brian Colborne]

"Only Taoism explains it in the context of the jing- qi -shen framework . Because of such an explanation and practice ,and , because all those elements mentioned are inside us , as the most basic elements of our existence ,it makes the climbing of a small, humble

individual ,step by step , onto the Heaven , becoming part of this bigger Mind itself possible . "

 

Hi Exorcist, i am wondering where to start, i have only rudimentary understanding of Tao, regarding practices, i have read a lot of theory but i would earnestly like to take the path you mention, - humble small steps...

 

do you or any of the other Taoist masters have some info for me re what to begin in daily practice, what to read and what to do?

 

Thank you so much

 

Brian

[exorcist_1699]

Unfortunately I am not a master of any kinds , but one who has attained some experience through years of

practice .

 

Regarding opinions on Taoist cultivation , I posted quite many on this forum ...of course, there are lot of members such as Dao Zhen, Lin, Taomeow..... just mention few of them , who get better achievements and ideas than mine , through reading their posts and your participation , I am sure that you can advance quicker .

Edited December 24, 2008 by exorcist_1699

[Wayfarer64]

Nothing is different...All is all that there is... there can be nothing outside of all that is. Taoism, Buddhism, Christianity, Shamanism, etc. are all within all that is.... just facets of the same gem.

 

all things are mental

all things exhibit correspondence... as above, so below

all things vibrate

all things exhibit polarity

all things exhibit rhythm

all things are subject to cause and effect

all things exhibit gender

 

We follow the path (facet) that resonates within us.

 

nice post!

 

And for Brian- I am just a seeker as so many here - but I suggest using the I Ching to get in touch with Taoism on a concrete level... meditate on a question -throw the coins or sticks and see what the answers mean for you-

 

peace in the new year - the year of the Rat is usually a poor one for us Horses -I'll be glad when the Ox rolls in!

[Stigweard]

People of many belief systems drink green tea...

 

And not only Taoists "become one" with their tea...

 

Still it is far better for one to take green tea rather than coffee...

 

Yet & still I drink coffee some mornings... I can choose to ignore my own knowledge & act as if ignorant when it comes to being one with many things that aren't very good for me...

 

There is no, (or very little)- judgement -just observation to contend with...

 

Someone mentioned tea? Yes please! I'm feeling rather western today so a nice Earl Grey would be fine Perhaps with a twist of lemon.

[exorcist_1699]

nice post!

 

And for Brian- I am just a seeker as so many here - but I suggest using the I Ching to get in touch with Taoism on a concrete level... meditate on a question -throw the coins or sticks and see what the answers mean for you-

 

 

 

Whether throwing a coin and see its result according to the hexagrams in I Ching is a good way for our cultivation or not , I really don't know for I have never tried it before, however, the hexagrams are really being used to hide /express the concrete steps of Taoist practice .

 

the following is an interesting forum:

 

I Ching Forum

 

you may find is useful

Edited December 24, 2008 by exorcist_1699

[teopakees]

True Kabbalah (Inner Space by Aryeh Kaplan) too teaches the within. Through our actions here and now,for good or ill, we interact with and influence the reality beyond our (fallen?) perception.

Have seen photo of ancient carving on cave wall in China which resembles the 10 sefirot.

[JohnC]

Lin or others,

 

I was wondering what the difference was between enlightenment gained by cultivating the dantien, and enlightenment gained through strictly meditation practice(samadhi)?

 

I imagine that enlightenment is enlightenment... wouldn't the person that gains enlightenment through cultivation of the dantien, still be a paradigm of morals and ethics? Could there be an attached enlightened one? Someone with attachments that has enlightenment from cultivating the dantien, or has the abilities?

 

Basically I'm wondering if were dealing with two different definitions of enlightenment. Like an enlightened body but not mind....?

 

I imagine through the samadhi path there couldn't be an evil or angry enlightened one... by nature of meditation cleaning out your attachments and the like. I also imagine the same would happen if you cultivated the dantien... so it wouldn't take longer, or present more risks, it would just be a different path, with its own pitfalls, and challenges.

 

I've been meditating a lot, and notice that at times I will feel the same thing as when I practice qigong, or similar. (like heat inside the body at certain parts, aches at certain pressure points etc).

 

The other thing I was wondering was... do these things have to be separate?

 

I think the truths in Buddhism apply with Yoga apply with Taoism. They are just separate bodies of knowledge, but still related in how the world works. Is this accurate?

 

Thanks,

John

Edited January 14, 2009 by JohnC

[林愛偉]

Lin or others,

 

I was wondering what the difference was between enlightenment gained by cultivating the dantien, and enlightenment gained through strictly meditation practice(samadhi)?

 

I imagine that enlightenment is enlightenment... wouldn't the person that gains enlightenment through cultivation of the dantien, still be a paradigm of morals and ethics? Could there be an attached enlightened one? Someone with attachments that has enlightenment from cultivating the dantien, or has the abilities?

 

Basically I'm wondering if were dealing with two different definitions of enlightenment. Like an enlightened body but not mind....?

 

I imagine through the samadhi path there couldn't be an evil or angry enlightened one... by nature of meditation cleaning out your attachments and the like. I also imagine the same would happen if you cultivated the dantien... so it wouldn't take longer, or present more risks, it would just be a different path, with its own pitfalls, and challenges.

 

I've been meditating a lot, and notice that at times I will feel the same thing as when I practice qigong, or similar. (like heat inside the body at certain parts, aches at certain pressure points etc).

 

The other thing I was wondering was... do these things have to be separate?

 

I think the truths in Buddhism apply with Yoga apply with Taoism. They are just separate bodies of knowledge, but still related in how the world works. Is this accurate?

 

Thanks,

John

 

Enlightenment is enlightenment when there is no more delusion. Regardless of the path, if delusion still remains then complete enlightenment has not been attained.

 

DO not confuse cultivation of Samadhi and of Dan Tian. Being in a state of concentration while focusing on the Dan Tian is just being in Samadhi. Samadhi is a state of concentration. Sitting in meditation, and breathing, while letting the mind still, will cause breath to move to the dan tian. It is a natural process. Daoist cultivation concentrates a lot on the process..thus taking a bit longer to succeed...BUT length of time is not important.

 

The speed and method depends on the mind of the cultivator.

 

Good Luck!!!

 

Peace,

Lin

[exorcist_1699]

I think JohnC does raise an important question , ie, the relation between dantian and Enlightenment .

 

Dantian , from which our qi arises , of course, is a Taoist concept.

 

Enlightenment , on the other hand , is a Buddhist concept , which in fact nearly equal to Shen ( Spirit) in the Taoist jing-qi-shen framework .

 

I have to say, contrary to what Lin said , Taoist way, with much clearcut framework and steps , can lead people to Enlightenment more easier ; Don't forget it is the Taoist system that has a concrete meridian system as the backbone to support its cultivation ; no other systems tell you so clear which point, which meridian will have what feeling and effect as Taoism does . That is why strange jargons have to be used in order to bar the " unqualified " people from attaining it .

Edited January 15, 2009 by exorcist_1699

[林愛偉]

I think JohnC does raise an important question , ie, the relation between dantian and Enlightenment .

 

Dantian , from which our qi arises , of course, is a Taoist concept.

 

Enlightenment , on the other hand , is a Buddhist concept , which in fact nearly equal to Shen ( Spirit) in the Taoist jing-qi-shen framework .

 

I have to say, contrary to what Lin said , Taoist way, with much clearcut framework and steps , can lead people to Enlightenment more easier ; Don't forget it is the Taoist system that has a concrete meridian system as the backbone to support its cultivation ; no other systems tell you so clear which point, which meridian will have what feeling and effect as Taoism does . That is why strange jargons have to be used in order to bar the " unqualified " people from attaining it .

 

On the contrary, strange jargon was used so those with evil in their hearts would not attain spiritual penetrations.