Why Taoism is different

[exorcist_1699]

Taoist "dantian" is a two-edged sword. On one hand , it lets people have a starting point ; on the other hand, it can be a trap that entangles people from further advancing life-long ; because of this , it should be supplemented with the Buddhist effort of purifying our mind , getting rid of any minds...etc.

 

Buddhism's mindlessness can also be a two-edged sword. On one hand , it helps us getting rid of attachment , no matter it is to dantian , qi or a taiji ball, is bad for our cultivation ; on the other hand, it can lead us to unproductive tranquility , to a mediocre status of peace which , of course, is far from Enlightenment.

Edited January 15, 2009 by exorcist_1699

[JohnC]

Well I was wondering too... can you have spiritual abilities while not enlightened?

 

According to the Taoist stuff I've read so far the answer is no. But some of the posts on this forum suggest otherwise?

 

I guess it makes me kind of realize that enlightenment is not this huge thing that is very rare... that it can be done, given time, and effort.

 

As far as the meridians, the yogi's have an extremely and very similar map out of the body in regards to meridians, chakras and the like. I think that chakras are powered by the meridians... like the meridians are a more bodily oriented while the chakras are more spiritually oriented.

 

Basically from what I can tell the yogi's stuff and Taoism stuff map over around like 80%. They are both like the sciences of the body and spirit, with Taoism more focused on the body, and yogi's more focused on the spirit... I think. Correct me if others know more.

 

Thanks guys,

John

Edited January 15, 2009 by JohnC

[Wayfarer64]

Everyone's Path is different.

The Buddha started out as a spoiled rich kid who saw the basic everyday toils of life as a great suffering -because he came from an over-protective background.

 

Taoism sees life as whatever you make of it- useing yr internal -natural and developable powers and energies to grow- as all life grows...

 

The internal search for spiritual awakening is a universal possibility that anyone may attain- In fact it is the state of being we are born into- it is the distractions of this wonderous world-which is a great gift -that leads us from that basic awareness-that we are beings of spirit having a human experience-

 

getting back to that natural state of awareness is an awakening offered by many paths it is the original & natural state of being -united as spirit/mind/body-

 

love to all-Pat

[林愛偉]

Everyone's Path is different.

The Buddha started out as a spoiled rich kid who saw the basic everyday toils of life as a great suffering -because he came from an over-protective background.

 

Taoism sees life as whatever you make of it- useing yr internal -natural and developable powers and energies to grow- as all life grows...

 

The internal search for spiritual awakening is a universal possibility that anyone may attain- In fact it is the state of being we are born into- it is the distractions of this wonderous world-which is a great gift -that leads us from that basic awareness-that we are beings of spirit having a human experience-

 

getting back to that natural state of awareness is an awakening offered by many paths it is the original & natural state of being -united as spirit/mind/body-

 

love to all-Pat

 

 

The Buddha didn't start out as a "spoiled rich kid"...and he didn't start his cultivation in just one lifetime.

As the Sutras teach, the Buddha endured countless lifetimes before he attained Enlightenment.

 

Spiritual powers do not mean one is enlightened. It just means they have spiritual powers, nothing more, maybe a bit of wisdom, maybe not.

 

Peace,

Lin

[exorcist_1699]

Well I was wondering too... can you have spiritual abilities while not enlightened?

 

According to the Taoist stuff I've read so far the answer is no. But some of the posts on this forum suggest otherwise?

 

I guess it makes me kind of realize that enlightenment is not this huge thing that is very rare... that it can be done, given time, and effort.

 

As far as the meridians, the yogi's have an extremely and very similar map out of the body in regards to meridians, chakras and the like. I think that chakras are powered by the meridians... like the meridians are a more bodily oriented while the chakras are more spiritually oriented.

 

Basically from what I can tell the yogi's stuff and Taoism stuff map over around like 80%. They are both like the sciences of the body and spirit, with Taoism more focused on the body, and yogi's more focused on the spirit... I think. Correct me if others know more.

 

 

Without attaining certain level of Enlightenment, our qi definitely can't be high and delicate, let alone having a healing power against sufferings /diseases.

 

Maybe we can get some sort of spiritual power by solely concentrating our mind on somewhere or singing some curse repeatedly , yet what we get is far from the arena of the yang qi .It gives us power ,but likely an evil one, similar to the one owned by a witch .Such a power will never be anything equal to the Taoist or Buddhist one .

 

In fact, paying attention to a definite place of our body or visulaizing something is always easy , however asking our mind to focus on nothing/nowhere is always difficult . If we can succeed , then we find such mindlessness does have multiple layers , like peeling off a transparent onion's seemingly endless skins , we do not know when we can reach its core , we do not how powerful we can become .

 

Taoist meridian system is more delicate than Yoga's ; just point out the fact that it is also a network which hundreds of thousands of acupunturists rely on to heal thousands of human diseases , then you know how detailed and delicate it has to be .

Edited January 16, 2009 by exorcist_1699

[Wayfarer64]

The Buddha didn't start out as a "spoiled rich kid"...and he didn't start his cultivation in just one lifetime.

As the Sutras teach, the Buddha endured countless lifetimes before he attained Enlightenment.

 

Spiritual powers do not mean one is enlightened. It just means they have spiritual powers, nothing more, maybe a bit of wisdom, maybe not.

 

Peace,

Lin

 

As Buddhist teachings go- The Guatama was not "awakened" and continue to be awakened from birth. He had a Satori of sorts when he ran away from home and saw what he felt was unbelievable suffering- sickness, age , death etc...He then devoted his life (one of many as we all have)- to finding a way out of that suffering -as he saw it- he later developed an understanding of the middle-way that led him to a greater enlightenment-

 

Which became that which he taught...

 

That we each and all go through many life times is pretty well accepted on this forum. That there have been many incarnations of Buddha is also granted by most, that we all must "endure" MANY Life times is also pretty well accepted by many here - up to a point - I for one see nothing to endure beyond life itself which I do not see as suffering- Even while I was being tortured by neo-nazi miscreants- life is a blessing -not something to be endured - and it is what we make of it that allows us to grow - not what we hide from in an effort to transcend the everyday -which is mostly pretty wonderful for lots of people -the kind hearted and the mean spirited alike...

 

Much of morality and proscribed behaviors are just silly to my way of interpreting what this realm of existence offers to each of us... It is the awakening to the spirit within each of us that offers a full appreciation of this gift of life and the responsibilities we assume for each other as spiritual beings sharing a corporeal existence that counts...

 

It is being in the here and now that makes Existential Taoism different for me - I get to choose as a human what I can and can not do as each experience arises, according to my nature and the situation -not some myth-based set of beliefs and dogma ...

 

I hold my spirit and my karma as everlasting and answerable to the source of all being- so I act as best I can in any given situation-while not allowing my basic nature to be undermined... I am at heart a warrior maybe even more so - than if I didn't also wish to be a monk and find a bit more peace in my lifetime- but I accept this role and believe that we each have a certain amount of destiny -or karma to fullfill and take responsiblity for - each path is very different and there is not right or wrong or better or lesser path... None-

But I agree the path to power has little if anything to do with the path to enlightenment

 

peace _& LOVE- Pat

Edited January 17, 2009 by Wayfarer64

[WhiteTiger]

life is a blessing -not something to be endured - and it is what we make of it that allows us to grow - not what we hide from in an effort to transcend the everyday

 

What powerful words.

 

This is your view point, Which i don't claim to disagree with.

 

Wondrous question... Why would one try to hide in an effort to transcend the everyday?

[Wayfarer64]

What powerful words.

 

This is your view point, Which i don't claim to disagree with.

 

Wondrous question... Why would one try to hide in an effort to transcend the everyday?

 

 

Because the everyday is very distracting! To seek inner peace is very time consuming for most of us...Satory aside- the path to inner self -conquering is not an easy one...No matter what path - or attempts at many paths we try to take...In order to reach an "enlightened " state of mind- But that "hiding" in order to still yr mind can be very counter-productive... And besides what good can one do for the wider world in seclusion?- But that is perhaps a seperate issue...

 

Religious Taoism has dogma and I for one do not take it very seriously, as I do not take any dogma seriously- it is a way to dictate a path - and I again say every path is different- which is also what Krishnamurti said, and I think him very wise.

 

I see it as YR WAY (with props to Frank Sinatra ) - not even always a strictly Taoist way - In any attempt to get beyond what we have been taught to accept as Gospel -no matter what system we grow up in... there will be baggage that fogs our view outward into the unknown - Just as it is hard to tell if yr laundry is dry, or still damp- if you have wet hands, a precondition will obstruct knowledge...

 

Solitude is a useful tool but negating life in the service of any dogma is foolish to my thinking. Life is the greatest gift any spirit can recieve -it is endured on some levels and treasured on others - but the elements of transcendence are internal and hopefully ENJOYED as we go on thru life's roller-coastering ride... enjoying life is not a sin. Abusing power or being gluttonous, envious etc.. you know the list... to do so is sinful...And that is why most retreat in an effrort to escape temptations...But the roller-coaster continues... efforts remain to be applied...

 

(Even the Buddha is said to have suffered from over-consumption in his later years as he traveled thru India accepting dinner invitations and offering sutras as his passport - with a huge entourage that often put any given village into dire need after they went on their way...)

 

Nothing is clear-cut accept constant change which must be dealt with as we go along...

[WhiteTiger]

Enlightenment is enlightenment when there is no more delusion. Regardless of the path, if delusion still remains then complete enlightenment has not been attained.

 

Its very interesting Lin

 

The speed and method depends on the mind of the cultivator.

 

Good Luck!!!

 

Peace,

Lin

 

I do not doubt this at all and this may obviously be true, but it is my personal opinion that a teacher or someone really trying to teach, only guides the student in the right direction.

 

Lin, through my personal experiences with you, you attempt to jazz things up or sell yourself to others about your ideas. Now don't get me wrong... and i hope OUTSIDE VIEWERS DON'T GET THIS WRONG, but this has nothing to do with how much you have cultivated nor anything to do with your Intellectual knowledge.

 

People attempting to use my delusions to gain profit or interest I find is a complete and total waste of my time.

 

The idea of teaching stuff about enlightenment and while not giving "The Tao Te Ching" sort of simple and easy to understand answers, is something I personally look down on.

 

Lin, Its simple You seem to know so much about enlightenment, I'm interested in an intellectual understanding of enlightenment from you and thats IT! You sell yourself again and again claiming Enlightenment is the only thing.

 

The idea that Enlightenment is the only thing to cultivate for is just Untrue 100%!

 

Enlightenment and Nirvana aren't the same thing. Many practice to reach Nirvana.

 

Answers to peoples issues should be enlightening in that moment or when the person applies the wisdom.

 

When i was a young boy and had issues with moving forward as a young kid i came in desperation to my father. Telling him in a very dramatic state that i could not move forward. He gave me guidance that was on a completely intellectual level. Which start out the beginning of my cultivation, from that guidance alone I cultivated to great deal.

[林愛偉]

Its very interesting Lin

I do not doubt this at all and this may obviously be true, but it is my personal opinion that a teacher or someone really trying to teach, only guides the student in the right direction.

 

Lin, through my personal experiences with you, you attempt to jazz things up or sell yourself to others about your ideas. Now don't get me wrong... and i hope OUTSIDE VIEWERS DON'T GET THIS WRONG, but this has nothing to do with how much you have cultivated nor anything to do with your Intellectual knowledge.

 

People attempting to use my delusions to gain profit or interest I find is a complete and total waste of my time.

 

The idea of teaching stuff about enlightenment and while not giving "The Tao Te Ching" sort of simple and easy to understand answers, is something I personally look down on.

 

Lin, Its simple You seem to know so much about enlightenment, I'm interested in an intellectual understanding of enlightenment from you and thats IT! You sell yourself again and again claiming Enlightenment is the only thing.

 

The idea that Enlightenment is the only thing to cultivate for is just Untrue 100%!

 

Enlightenment and Nirvana aren't the same thing. Many practice to reach Nirvana.

 

Answers to peoples issues should be enlightening in that moment or when the person applies the wisdom.

 

When i was a young boy and had issues with moving forward as a young kid i came in desperation to my father. Telling him in a very dramatic state that i could not move forward. He gave me guidance that was on a completely intellectual level. Which start out the beginning of my cultivation, from that guidance alone I cultivated to great deal.

 

How unfortunate.

I never assumed to try and sell, or even had the idea of selling anything I had on this forum.

 

Basically put, you either eat food and get full or you don't. Thinking about food doesn't get you full. Getting food and eating it does.

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

[WhiteTiger]

How unfortunate.

I never assumed to try and sell, or even had the idea of selling anything I had on this forum.

 

Game of word antics... Not something I'm very good with. An art of the English Language and how to use it well for your directed intent.

 

Well, I'm agreeing with myself to disagree with you.

 

Your right... you probably never assume to "Try" and sell something.

 

Basically put, you either eat food and get full or you don't. Thinking about food doesn't get you full. Getting food and eating it does.

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

 

I don't at all expect to be enlightened from what you know about enlightenment NOR how well you can explain it intellectually.

 

Best wishes of Peace and Patience to Lin and all else that have read these last two posts.

WT

Edited January 27, 2009 by WhiteTiger

[林愛偉]

Game of word antics... Not something I'm very good with. An art of the English Language and how to use it well for your directed intent.

 

Well, I'm agreeing with myself to disagree with you.

 

Your right... you probably never assume to "Try" and sell something.

I don't at all expect to be enlightened from what you know about enlightenment NOR how well you can explain it intellectually.

 

Best wishes of Peace and Patience to Lin and all else that have read these last two posts.

WT

 

 

Funny, I never tried to intellectually "teach" enlightenment to people. You can't teach it to people,

but one can teach methods that would eventually lead the cultivator to attain it.

Overall, enlightenment must be attained, not thought about.

 

Lastly, I don't like playing the word game. But there are many that try to twist what I write and say in order

to get their views believed.

 

I do not care to make money off of the teachings I was given, nor do I care to get famous from what I have. It is quite funny how those who are in the spotlight, and look for gain are believed in the blink of an eye, but those who care not for the fame and fortune are thought to be snake oil sales men.... hehe

 

I rather not have students, and not bother with it all...but I do because there are those that care enough to question themselves.

 

Anywho... be well, have fun, and Happy New Year!!!

 

AMITABHA!

 

Peace,

Lin

[WhiteTiger]

Funny, I never tried to intellectually "teach" enlightenment to people. You can't teach it to people,

but one can teach methods that would eventually lead the cultivator to attain it.

Overall, enlightenment must be attained, not thought about.

 

I never sought out to be enlightened from you "Teaching" it on an Intellectual level.

 

I AM interested in the intellectual understanding YOU HAVE of Enlightenment... or anyone else that speaks as if they know it so well.

 

I understand "one" can not attain enlightenment through purely one speaking about enlightenment on an intellectual level (I ONLY BELIEVE IN MAKING SOMETHING MY OWN THROUGH PERSONAL EXPERIENCE), and I also understand and believe "One can teach methods that would eventually lead the cultivator to attain it."

 

Lastly, I don't like playing the word game. But there are many that try to twist what I write and say in order

to get their views believed.

Well I'm not good at it and I don't like playing word games either.

 

Anywho... be well, have fun, and Happy New Year!!!

 

AMITABHA!

 

Peace,

Lin

 

Happy New Year to all.

 

Peace and blessings Lin and everyone else

 

 

P.S. I have ego issues... It obviously shows... because of that I'm sorry although my intention is not for fame. but for inner wealth inside, as a cultivator... and that doesn't mean I'm trying to draw others into me but i am seeking in panic. Thats the straightforward truth weather you believe it or not.

I'm very sorry for straying this topic off its course. I didn't mean to disturb anyone... please continue talking

 

P.P.S. editing to make my post clearer.

Edited January 28, 2009 by WhiteTiger

[Wayfarer64]

Its funny - before I found this site - I saw myself as a "seeker" of wisdom" and perhaps even enlightenment... The word cultivator was not part of my lexicon in that search. I now like it very much and do see the merit of the distinction. We grow ourselves into the beings we become more than mere "looking" within and without...

 

For my way has always been about introspection and analysis of self - Starting quite early - with the Socratic or Greek " Know thy self" and blossoming into eastern realms of thought and practice...

 

That I have settled into a sort of existential Taoism may be a mere -way station as it were...

 

But Taoism is different from other forms of cultivation and seeking in that it demands an open minded and open ended approach to all questions... Maybe not "religious Taoism per se as that has some pretty dogmatic dictates; but the basic idea that the only constant is change aspect - which is also a basis for mathamatical physics...

 

As long as we keep seeking and growing we are becoming enlightened and I see no point in that ever ending... the state of enlightenment means little to some of us.... We are of this world and happy to be so. What the next realm is - holds some wonder and a hope for greater realms of understanding prehaps... But I for one do not wish any sort of nervana or immortality beyond my current hold on what I have impirical reasons to conclude is my immortal spirit -

 

Which means to me that we are each born "Immortal" and just need to remember it rather than be constantly distracted by the marvelous world around us... IF we can constantly remember that there is more to our lives than the physical - & we are STILL spirits and will return to that state with added insight and meaning as our lives (personalities) end... Is there more? And if not -what is the big deal?

 

LOVE TO ALL- Pat

[sarnam]

In gasho to all, In 1973 I came in contact with a Dervish who tried to chase me away, I persisted that he allow me to meditate with him, he finnelly said O.K. in fiften minutes my whole life melted away I entered the Holy of Holys after that for some time I could not speak nor could anyone approach me I had been a good dresser and dated a lot of women but now I no longer shined my shoes I didn't care about anything. I set out to not only to study other religons but to exsperiance them first hand this has been an incredible journey. The Buddha says that all beings suffer from hate greed and delusion these are termed the three posions. At what ever point on the time line this ego began to develop it was due to the three posions, all religons and Shamanic teachings strive to be differant and this is why they cause trouble if you you could penatrate into a word to see it's vortex you would see an exact form, this form manifests in samshara as religon and Taoism is there to. Lin has pointed out very clearly our predicament and our salvation. We must continue to cultivate to clear mind then the energy will move properly towards fufilement. The old Buddhists were termed wood cutters because they were busy pruneing a way. Also the buddhists and daoists often sat together before the same Dharma masters. I have been told that the Buddhist seeks nirvana while the daoist seeks immortalaty, but in the end who knows which is which. Please forgive me if I have spoken beyond myself. Thank you Sarnam

[Wayfarer64]

In gasho to all, In 1973 I came in contact with a Dervish who tried to chase me away, I persisted that he allow me to meditate with him, he finnelly said O.K. in fiften minutes my whole life melted away I entered the Holy of Holys after that for some time I could not speak nor could anyone approach me I had been a good dresser and dated a lot of women but now I no longer shined my shoes I didn't care about anything. I set out to not only to study other religons but to exsperiance them first hand this has been an incredible journey. The Buddha says that all beings suffer from hate greed and delusion these are termed the three posions. At what ever point on the time line this ego began to develop it was due to the three posions, all religons and Shamanic teachings strive to be differant and this is why they cause trouble if you you could penatrate into a word to see it's vortex you would see an exact form, this form manifests in samshara as religon and Taoism is there to. Lin has pointed out very clearly our predicament and our salvation. We must continue to cultivate to clear mind then the energy will move properly towards fufilement. The old Buddhists were termed wood cutters because they were busy pruneing a way. Also the buddhists and daoists often sat together before the same Dharma masters. I have been told that the Buddhist seeks nirvana while the daoist seeks immortalaty, but in the end who knows which is which. Please forgive me if I have spoken beyond myself. Thank you Sarnam

 

I didn't realize that Lin was offering salvation. I certainly haven't seen him expose any actual clear indications of an individuals' predicament or predicaments in general. Where is the clearity, if that is his aim.

 

I am not so sure Lin needs anyone to speak up for him here , where he has always been warmly welcomed and respected by us all. That you make a differentiation as to what is in the "vortex" of samshara and do not include Lins' teachings seems odd to me. Once we are beyond that vortex... all teaching is meaningless.

 

This being a site primarily dedicated to Taoist thought does not preclude ANY other belief system or philosophy or idealism - thanks to Seans' impeccable terms of conduct and allowences to all and everyone. But this thread is about how Taoism is different not how it is similar to Buddhism. There are of course many similarities between every system of faith, worship, philosophy and belief I can think of. The idea of spirituality is the unifying factor, as we are all one in spirit. The paths to reach an understanding of that oneness are many. My inclination towards Taoism is mostly due to how it offers such a realistic approach to living in this world. It is a philosophy based on natural laws and earthly conditions. There is NO efforts made to seperate from the world as it is, a great interconnected web of life. The efforts are to become a more meaningful part of that interplay.

 

There has been evil done in the name of all religions and beliefs. Buddhism as well as Taoism are not beyond the manipulations of men. That the Way to ones' inner strength and a more complete understanding and grasp of ones' spiritual bliss is different for each of us is a great and wondeful thing.

[林愛偉]

 

There has been evil done in the name of all religions and beliefs. Buddhism as well as Taoism are not beyond the manipulations of men. That the Way to ones' inner strength and a more complete understanding and grasp of ones' spiritual bliss is different for each of us is a great and wondeful thing.

 

 

There is a saying in Buddhism. It goes:

 

"Waiting at the gates of hell are more Buddhist Sanghans and Daoist monks."

 

The reason is they purposely make vows, promises to oneself and others, and still break them

with the thought that because they have left the home life, they are holier than thou.

 

Not all left home of Buddhism and Daoism are like this, but a great many. Then, they teach their followers to do the same thing with "unconscious" views that it is ok. Now lay cultivators follow their teacher's to the hells of their mind, thinking it is heaven.

 

Hell is of the mind. It is a mass karmic retribution/outcome regardless of who does what. People create the realms, and though outcomes are myriad, many people vibrate on the same level of energ, thus creating the same outcomes of eachother, thus manifesting mass karmic retribution/outcome.

 

Whether good or bad.

 

My Daoist Shifu once told me,"... it doesn't matter which education says what, Daoist or Buddhist. What does matter is our own capacity to attain common sense in being a good person. Follow and lead a wholesome life, and you will be alright. Do otherwise and beware of your own karma."

 

One's own rationalization will cover the mind. No rationalization, no mind, thus clarity without defilement.

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

[exorcist_1699]

It is said that when good ways are done by evil guys, even good ways are changed to evil ways; conversely , when evil ways are practiced by virtuous guys , even evil ways can become good ways.

 

For example, physical immortality is just an inevitable byproduct , just a criterion of judging how our practice proceed if we follow the Taoist jing-qi-shen framework , although never can it be the aim of Taoism , shallow-minded guys still blame us of leading people to unrealistic direction , of leading their beloved philosophical Taoism to religious Taoism...

Edited February 11, 2009 by exorcist_1699

[WhiteTiger]

It is a philosophy based on natural laws and earthly conditions.

 

Wonderfully put... as this is my understanding of Taoism in its most core conditions.

 

If I could ever put it into any sort of words it would be Natural Law or Natural Order.

 

Honestly, I dare anyone to reflect upon Natural Laws.

There are so many wonderful things that can be understood.

 

Just to clearify,

Law, doesn't mean that one claims them to be so... but just what constitutes a thing or being.

Natural, means what happens without interfering with.

 

It is said that when good ways are done by evil guys, even good ways are changed to evil ways; conversely , when evil ways are practiced by virtuous guys , even evil ways can become good ways.

 

For example, physical immortality is just an inevitable byproduct , just a criterion of judging how our practice proceed if we follow the Taoist jing-qi-shen framework , although never can it be the aim of Taoism , shallow-minded guys still blame us of leading people to unrealistic direction , of leading their beloved philosophical Taoism to religious Taoism...

 

Maybe you would be willing to elaborate a little more?

Edited February 11, 2009 by WhiteTiger

[innerspace_cadet]

How is Daoism different? Different from what, I would ask. The first thing that would come to my mind are the Western Abrahamic traditions: Judaism, Christianity and Islam. These religions generally see this life as a preparation for the next one. However, Daoism generally sees this life as inherently good, and death as equally good, because they are both bound to happen, so one has no choice but to accept them both. I once heard a Christian preacher say that "death is the enemy of God" and I had to vehemently disagree with him on that point. Life is not the enemy, nor is death.

 

Daoism is much more similar to the other Eastern religions, such as Buddhism and Hinduism, in that they are all ways of life that are practiced rather than obligatory creeds one has to believe in. It is difficult to separate "Buddhism" from "Daoism" especially in China, because they mutually influenced each other. But I would say that even Buddhism focuses more on spiritual transcendence than Daoism. In Daoism, there is nothing to "transcend" since the Dao is all around us and within us. All we have to do is live in harmony with it. However, I think the practice of Buddhism and Daoism complement each other nicely. If you overcome dukkha, you live more in harmony with the Dao, but if you live closer to the Dao, you won't suffer as much.

[exorcist_1699]

With your body full of pre-heavenly qi , unless you yourself jump from that window or a plane deliberately smashes on your house , who can make you die ? Yet attaining physical immortality is not any of Taoist aims , but some kind of byproduct of a mindless , natural practical process ; so Taoism should not be blamed for arousing people's inappropriate expectation for immortality .

 

Conversely ,it is people's inappropriate/evil drive that always make many of Taoist phenomena misinterpreted.

Edited February 11, 2009 by exorcist_1699

[TheWhiteRabbit]

Generally I give my conclusion statement last due to some of my college education, however this time I will state it first.

 

Daoism generally deals with perspective, at this it has something other paths do not, which makes it the most difficult and I will explain why:

 

Before I get into the meaty part of what I am going to say, Daoism is really a conglomerate of Buddhism, Confucianism, and Folk-Shamanism. That statement is more or less true depending upon what "flavor" of Daoism you have been exposed to.

 

Major Point #1 Take for example, the "Embracing Simplicity School" They take everything into perspective and hold many so-called contradictory beliefs, all of which are true. Does this mean one is stupid or wrong in this? No. This is because there are many perspectives in the world and words themselves do not express the true reality of each perspective and thing accepted due to the fact that there are deeper and subtler energies behind the words that can not actually be grasped easily. If such was the case, humanity could have found a way already to streamline and have a religion that is true in its entirety. However we are left to sift the perspectives for a true reality which is not found in words, that is what Taoism is.

As a side point on this, though I am not Christian I quote the bible as this quote coincides with Taoist thought at Proverbs 10:19 (this is my translation anyway) The first half of the verse reads "In the abundance of words there proves to be error" Which I take to mean with many words one can be proven wrong.

 

Major Point #2 Are training methods indigenous to only one religion or school? No. Buddhism and Taoism overlap in almost all training methods, and cannot be designated different in those aspects. As a simple quote, I reference Eva Wong in "Taoism".

 

Before I quote this I must draw first attention to the fact that a Buddhist Heart meditation and meditation upon Deities to connect with them, or meditations mimicing such concepts or feeling are also found in Taoism and are not soley a Buddhist concept. This may make some angry, but this is true.

 

It is mentioned as method #7 Covered under the topic "Visualizing The Valley Spirit" page 204. However today, no Major Sect of Taoism teaches or practices this method. So it is assumed that such related practices are Buddhist. This method does not mean channeling spirits into ones body, as do Mediums or sorcerers... That is something completely different.

 

I was going to mention the other methods but as my time is short... Onward...

 

Major Point #3 Is energy view simple in Taoism? No. You have Shen-Qi-Jing Energy views, yet as subtle energies are experienced you see a blending of these energies and are able to feel higher and lower vibrations as well as sense color with the famous "Grand Enlightenment" mediation and are able to connect with things in different methods over great distances.

Magical Taoism introduces the Form-Energy perspective where forms and patterns are seen in the highly evolved mind as a tinker-toy like connection of energy and thought creating and allowing thoughtforms to exist.

Faat is generally thought to be a framework of these thoughtforms build up in ones wei-qi field or aura to assist in magic by some.

 

Major Point #4Discrepancy of Nothingness or Void in Taoism and Buddhism. It is generally thought that in Buddhism you try to end your existence in nirvana through training methods, however in Taoism attempt to return to the void (nothingness) with your consciousness still intact. There are many flavors and variations of this in Taoism and Buddhism, and some extreme either way and some say one way is right and the other wrong.

 

Final Conclusion From this we can see that in general, most of Taoist belief do hold these different perspectives, and most of Taoism came from the Simplicity School for the most part which incorporated so many different beliefs together. Research on the Simplicity School reveals a lot about the continuity (meaning connectivity/timeline) of Taoist history.

 

For those non-disposed to different perspectives and have an inability to keep oneself from saying "thats wrong" to perspectives that may seem incorrect I recommend Aldous Huxley's Book "Doors of Perception".

 

Or My friends Story about the three blind men and the elephant which is a common parable.

 

Last Thoughts Mankind in general could do better to adopt a "finger" approach to Training. First we are like a finger, then we realize we are connected to much more, and eventually realize the full surroundings. As a finger we then feel as though we are in complete control... Then as we continue we realize we are just a finger. Ha ha does that sum it up?

 

EDIT:

 

Does that mean Taoism is better than anything else? That was always been up to the beholder of course.

 

2nd EDIT:

 

The reference to the book "Doors of perception" is not due to the illegal drug use, but the study of how the human mind works.

Edited February 13, 2009 by TheWhiteRabbit

[disciplet]

I would agree with these statements. Personally for me the goal is to become one with the Tao or the way of heaven. Becoming part of how heaven operates is the highest goal of any religion and philosophy.

 

I think Taoism is good because it finds the spiritual right here and we can be part of it just by letting go of our ego or false self. What we think we are verses what we truly are, extensions of the Tao itself.

 

Tom

 

Here's a taoist principle: undiscriminating virtue

i dunno, it's strange that it appears to be a very much overlooked element of taoist teaching, and yet to me, it seems to be the most important.

"If you wish to gain merit and become one with the divine, then develop your virtue and extend it to the world.

Let go of all conflict and strife.

Practice unswerving kindness and unending patience. Avoid following impulses and pursuing ambitions which destroy the wholness of your mind.

Neither become obsessed with circumstances, nor forego awareness of them.

To manage the mind, know that there is nothing, and relinquish all attchment."

 

"the first practice is the practice of undiscriminating virtue (being kind to everyone without partiality), just as high awareness of the subtle truth is gained through virtuous conduct and sustaining disciplines, so also is it maintained through these things"

"live a quiet and simple life feree of ideas and concepts. find contentment in undiscriminating virtue - the only true power. giving to others selflessly and anonymously, radiating light in all directions."

 

Wouldn't such a person be a man/woman of Tao?

[sarnam]

I was sitting in the room the other night and someone knocked at the door I allowed them to come in they asked me for an opinion on how is Taoism different so attempting to be a good host I gave my opinion, in that opinion I talked about how I perceived my reality and not how others speak. I have come here to learn about Taoism and feel I have entered with respect. Thanks Sarnam

Edited February 13, 2009 by sarnam

[TheWhiteRabbit]

I was sitting in the room the other night and someone knocked at the door I allowed them to come in they asked me for an opinion on how is Taoism different so attempting to be a good host I gave my opinion, in that opinion I talked about how I perceived my reality and not how others speak. I have come here to learn about Taoism and feel I have entered with respect. Thanks Sarnam

Curious how the conversation went please?