Does Taoism believe in a God?

[Ben D]

A being becomes a god through their merit and virtue. That which is called Dao, is just as it is, non-dual, and yet all things reside in it, as it. One the discriminating mind points to the direction, label, of "Dao". there is already a falsity, and thus separation begins...Yin and Yang. Those two are relative, and will be that way till the mind of relativity/duality is transformed.

 

When a cultivator of the way communicates with beings of the god-mind, it is not the manner in which Christians would. Though the God of the 33rd Heaven is the same god of Judeo-Christian faith, when asked for things, the methods are a bit different in Daoism. The only way to actually get a response is through a sincere heart, proper in virtue and moral.

 

The god of the 33rd Heaven, Judeo-Christian god, in Daoism is none other than the Jade Emperor; Yu Huang Da Di. Hindu and Buddhist schools; Shakra Indra.

Peace,

Lin

 

I am not sure that I understand this clearly.

 

It is my understanding that the cultivator of the way is attempting to become one with the way and transcend the duality of ying-yang relativity, which you have stated clearly above.

 

However you then proceed to discuss the circumstance of a cultivator of the way attempting to communicate with beings of the god-mind, and how virtue, sincerity and concentration are necessary to get an actual response.

 

Now it seems to me a cultivator of the way in the first case, who is attempting directly to overcome the error of a dualistic mindset, is at a different 'level' than one who attempting to communicate with a 'separate' being of the god-mind since discrimination is implied in this act.

[Junbao]

Maybe I could see it like this....

 

God = The Tao

 

Jesus = The Physical Manifestations of The Tao

 

Holy Spirit = Chi - the force that animates the the physical manifestations within the Tao

 

???

[Ben D]

Maybe I could see it like this....

 

God = The Tao

Jesus = The Physical Manifestations of The Tao

 

Holy Spirit = Chi - the force that animates the the physical manifestations within the Tao

 

???

 

God = The Tao

 

Only if you give the same meaning to them. And you can add Allah, Nirvana, One Mind, etc..

 

However these are mere words, concepts, mental constructs that allow for communication in this domain we call mortal, but they are not that for which they symbolize. IOW, concepts convey the idea of something but whatever the Tau or God really is, it will not be realized unless one becomes that.

 

So long as there exists duality, a seeker of the Tau and the Tau, the goal will not ever be realized. Concepts themselves act as a barrier to effectively separate the seeker of the Tau from the Tau. For that reason, cessation of conceptual thinking is necessary to realize the Tau.

 

Jesus = The Physical Manifestations of The Tao

 

And so is Junbao and Ben d.

 

Holy Spirit = Chi - the force that animates the the physical manifestations within the Tao

 

Yes, and more than that, perhaps matter is actually made of Chi.

 

http://www.glafreniere.com:80/matter.htm

[Junbao]

Yes, Ben D, that's what I was implying.

I like to keep things simple.

They are only ideas anyway.....coming and going, ever changing. Just thoughts.

 

Thanks for the link.

Everything is waves/vibrations right?

What is interesting to ponder is what intelligence exists that keeps everything vibrating at it's particular frequency. What's holding it all together?

If it is "God", then what type of intelligence it that? I feel that it's not the kind that has me forming words and typing sentences here, but more the kind that keeps my heart pumping, or a tree growing, or the planets orbiting the sun.

I would like to learn to be closer to that kind of intelligence.

[Ben D]

Yes, Ben D, that's what I was implying.

I like to keep things simple.

They are only ideas anyway.....coming and going, ever changing. Just thoughts.

 

Thanks for the link.

Everything is waves/vibrations right?

What is interesting to ponder is what intelligence exists that keeps everything vibrating at it's particular frequency. What's holding it all together?

If it is "God", then what type of intelligence it that? I feel that it's not the kind that has me forming words and typing sentences here, but more the kind that keeps my heart pumping, or a tree growing, or the planets orbiting the sun.

I would like to learn to be closer to that kind of intelligence.

 

Everything is waves/vibrations right?

 

That is my understanding. And what is understood as particles are actually 'standing' waves as per electical theory. For a simpler description try this.

 

http://members.tripod.com/mwolff/

 

What is interesting to ponder is what intelligence exists that keeps everything vibrating at it's particular frequency. What's holding it all together?

 

My understanding is that space is comprised of an infinite frequency spectrum from the infinitesimal (zero) waves to the infinite (infinity) whereby all is in continuous motion of many dimensions, as a seamless gestalt whole.

 

I mention this as I spent my working life in the radio field and so retain some interest, but the Tau will never be realized through enquiry into the ten thousand things.

 

If it is "God", then what type of intelligence it that? I feel that it's not the kind that has me forming words and typing sentences here, but more the kind that keeps my heart pumping, or a tree growing, or the planets orbiting the sun.

 

Again, the answers to your questions will not come from enquiry into the infinite and eternal variations and movements of ying and yang. The Tau is the gestalt whole of all that is, all that exists, exists within the Tau, and all that doesn't exist, doesn't exist within the Tau.

 

I would like to learn to be closer to that kind of intelligence,

 

My understanding is that to do that, one should find out 'what' and 'who' one really is.

Your question implies a duality, ie. there are things unknown and there is a separate intelligence to you. So long as one asks questions with an inbuilt error, there can't be understanding. GIGO

[Patrick Brown]

[beancurdturtle]

[Vajrasattva]

 

There is no correlation between the dao and god.

 

 

You couldn't be any farther form the truth.

 

 

There is a HUGE correlation between "TAO" & a Formless Absolute or Creator/Destroyer,

 

TAO , CREATOR/DESTROYER are all concepts and words we have given it to try to come close to understanding it but there is a correlation.

 

If you dig deep enough the concepts & principles are in all relegious & esoteric paths not just TAOISM.

 

I have explained this before but Taoism was originally a way to be closer to the primordial Creator , "Shaman" or non conceptual mind.

 

What you have today as Taoism is off shoots from ancient practices that stem back to Bon Po and even further back to ancient Persia/Sumeria and even further back to ancient civilazations.

 

It was a "non Dual" way to live in the Duality of existence.

 

You will be surprised to find that Shivaism, Sufism, Taoism & Bon po have more in common than you think & the Creator/Absolute has more to do with it than he / she /it is given credit for.

 

Taoist Call it TAO and that is good. But do not underestimate the TAO & its intelligence and involvement & non involvement.

 

Peace & God Bless,

 

Santiago

[Taoist81]

I wasn't asking what a random Christian's concept of god was. I was asking "How would you describe the Christian God?" Not the mythology, not the "deeper" meaning, simply - your brief description.

What makes you so well informed about me that you can judge my level of understanding of either the dao or of the Christian god? And what about your illusion of my lack of understanding is understandable? Or is that just subtle one-upmanship?

Nothing in the post was actually meant to "judge" your personal understanding. The comment you are responding to was actually something of a play on words. "Understanding" is a state that exists "below" both Tao and "the Crown" (to use western terminology). Thus, one (anyone, not just you) cannot "understand" Tao or God, they can only be "experienced". Again, none of this was meant as an insult, only a statement on the limitation of language and the human mind. Personally, the "deeper meaning" is the only one that is "useful" in any practical sense.

 

My description is about what base purpose god and fulfills for most believers in god. You are focusing on the centuries of mythology, the "deeper meaning" of the mythology, the dogma and so forth.

 

My perspective is that the base meaning and value of any given thing lies in the purpose it fulfills. That is why I described god as I did.

With the qualifier of "most believers" your point about huge differences between "god" and Tao are completely valid. But that is because

I was a Christian for 24 years. I have been studying daoism for 24 years. I understand both - whether you have the capacity to believe so or not.

Do you truly feel that "That is a statement of misunderstanding, to say the least." is not a dismissal? If you had said "that is a very simplistic statement." I would agree with you. Instead you dismissed it as a "statement of misunderstanding."

Then we share a common heritage. Please look again, "misunderstanding" was not a term used in the above post.

 

It is a limited definition. But it is a valid definition if you ask, "What base purpose does the Christian god serve for believers?"

 

This we agree on. It is also part of the reason that religion/spirituality is not much more than a political and social club nowadays, unfortunately.

 

And the meaning of your last sentence here has escaped me.

The deeper (and possibly original) meaning of the Western concept of "God" has very little to do with whether there is a correlation between the Christian concept of god, and the dao.

 

Since there is no "One Christianity" it has very much to do with the discussion at hand. Just because the majority of so called "Christians" don't grasp the concept of experiencing their faith, doesn't mean the essence does not still lie at the core of it all. Jesus himself said that he taught "the people" in parables, while teaching his disciples the deeper meaning. Thus, a pearl in manure is still a pearl. And a supreme and infinite deity, both infinite and infinitesimal, both within man and beyond him and in other ways identical with what the Chinese dubbed "the Tao" still lies at the root of Jesus' teachings.

 

Look, Azoro refined his original question:

"That's the distinction I'm trying to get at. In Taoism, is there the concept of a supreme being that would intervene in the affairs of men (or the universe for that matter), because that is implied in Christianity, or is the belief that the Tao IS, and is everywhere, and we strive to become one with that essence, but that direct intervention is not part of the equation?"

With brevity and focus, I answered his question.

 

Here, please accept concession. Based on his revised question, implying a susceptibility to human petition, we are in agreement that your response is the more accurate one.

 

I'm not sure what drives your need to dismiss my statements, and question - or rather completely discount - my understanding. Where does your need to feel superior come from?

 

There is no need or desire to "feel superior". It is simply that, just like the word "soul", "god" is one of those words in English to which we are sadly limited. Just as every tradition with any length of tradition has a number of "parts" to the "soul" all distinct despite the fact that we use "soul" to translate all of them, "god" is a word which is used both to imply the limited god you describe and the infinite "principle" or "essence" discussed and experienced by the founders of most of the great religions and those spiritual giants who went and go deeper than dogma. Look to the Sufis, the Jesuits, the ancient Taoists, the Quakers, the Kabbalists,the Hasidim, the Yogis, the Esoteric Christians, the Rosicrucians etc., etc. ad nauseum and you find that the limited description of "god" discussed here is sorely lacking.

[Patrick Brown]

It was a "non Dual" way to live in the Duality of existence.

Not sure I agree that existence is a duality. I figure existence is simply what it is but man likes to impose his erroneous views on it. In fact it might be argued by some that a certain select few purposely perpetuate the idea of duality as it serves their own ends. Of course I'm not buying into any conspiracy theories here but I figure some people are following a lie! I mean what's with all this checkered floor stuff with the Masons? Of course the Masons are all about buSINess along with all it's vanity and greed.

 

It's been the same old story for a very long time i.e. Divide and conqueror. The symbolism of the Masons dividers and set square in one sense suggests they're aware of sacred geometry and in another that they're so 'clever' as to use such knowledge. Whether you think the modern world is 'heaven on earth' or not don't forget all the blood that it was built on.

 

There is no duality.

[meg]

hi everyone. this is a very interesting post and something i have had a difficult time figuring out also. i just have this one question (so far ) ... if a taoist finds him or herself in a dangerous situation, say in a burning building, what goes through the taoists head? of course we are all different and we dont always know how we would react in a situation like that. but i know for myself, right now, at this point in my life, i would be praying like crazy for God to help me lol. Now a taoist?...what might he/she be thinking/praying/etc?

 

meg

Edited July 16, 2008 by meg

[Taoist81]

hi everyone. this is a very interesting post and something i have had a difficult time figuring out also. i just have this one question (so far ) ... if a taoist finds him or herself in a dangerous situation, say in a burning building, what goes through the taoists head? of course we are all different and we dont always know how we would react in a situation like that. but i know for myself, right now, at this point in my life, i would be praying like crazy for God to help me lol. Now a taoist?...what might he/she be thinking/praying/etc?

 

meg

 

....well, one would hope the Taoist, or anyone else for that matter, would be trying to find a way out of the dangerous situation rather than praying to an invisible man/woman/spaghetti monster/pink unicorn to magically teleport them from the situation. Jumping out a window would be much more effective in most cases.

[meg]

....well, one would hope the Taoist, or anyone else for that matter, would be trying to find a way out of the dangerous situation rather than praying to an invisible man/woman/spaghetti monster/pink unicorn to magically teleport them from the situation. Jumping out a window would be much more effective in most cases.

hahaha, no, i know that! but, ok, say you are in a closet and a psycho with an unusually large steak knife is coming at you............ ?

[Patrick Brown]

Let's just leave the 'pink unicorn' out of this OK?

[Taoist81]

hahaha, no, i know that! but, ok, say you are in a closet and a psycho with an unusually large steak knife is coming at you............ ?

 

Then you would still be better off trying to get the steak knife away from him... : ) If you really think about it, there are few if any real world emergencies in which you are better off praying than trying to handle things in a more mundane way.

 

Let's just leave the 'pink unicorn' out of this OK?

 

But she is everywhere, just like HH the FSM, you can't leave her out.. : )

[meg]

Then you would still be better off trying to get the steak knife away from him... : ) If you really think about it, there are few if any real world emergencies in which you are better off praying than trying to handle things in a more mundane way.

But she is everywhere, just like HH the FSM, you can't leave her out.. : )

 

hmm, yes, i see what you are saying...

sorry if i'm being irritating but what if your child is in the hospital dying. I guess (I'll try to answer my own question...) then, you basically "go with the flow" and, as much as you want your child to live of course, you simply trust it to The Way Things Are... ??

do you agree?

[beancurdturtle]

Let's just leave the 'pink unicorn' out of this OK?

But she is everywhere, just like HH the FSM, you can't leave her out.. : )

What about the chartreuse one? I heard he's in Cleveland waiting for Elvis at The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.

Edited July 16, 2008 by beancurdturtle

[Taoist81]

hmm, yes, i see what you are saying...

sorry if i'm being irritating but what if your child is in the hospital dying. I guess (I'll try to answer my own question...) then, you basically "go with the flow" and, as much as you want your child to live of course, you simply trust it to The Way Things Are... ??

do you agree?

 

Then if prayer makes you feel better, do it. The largest studies have shown people recover no more often with prayer than without it (of course there are limitations to the ability to test this since anyone might have someone praying for them). If you have a very deep "relationship" with your god then you would "trust his Will" which would be basically the same as a "Philosophical Taoist" "going with the flow". A traditional Taoist might offer prayer and/or sacrifices at a temple or altar to a particular deity.

 

Again, the best option would be to try to find out about alternative therapies even experimental drugs/surgery as opposed to prayer. Or, if there are absolutely no options left, spend what precious little time you have with the child who will soon be taken from your life forever instead of spending it talking to a deity that you can still believe in after the kid is dead. Again, prayer may make someone feel better, but as the old saying goes "god helps those who help themselves". Or rather "god takes credit for those who help themselves or benefit from serendipity".

 

But she is everywhere, just like HH the FSM, you can't leave her out.. : )

 

What about the chartreuse one? I heard he's in Cleveland waiting for Elvis at The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.

 

The Chartreuse Unicorn is an imposter trying to lead people from the True Faith in Her Highness The Invisible Pink Unicorn. : ) It is a servant of the devious Purple Oyster.

[pigeontoes]

Everyone has their own interpretation of Tao, this is healthy. It brings thoughts & discussion to the table. If you want to pray to the Tao, that's good too. IMO, better to exercise. Better to focus on your vibration & observe the vibrations of the world.

 

Just because my interpretation of the vibration is different to others, maybe means I am only able to view from this perspective at this point in my life & is fit for the purpose. Tomorrow, my vibration will be different, therefore the perspective can / will alter.

 

 

As for the terminally ill child, maybe instead of praying, some hands on healing, fresh air, increase the flow of Chi.

 

[meg]

hey thanks everyone. btw, the "child" isnt real. just an example. i didnt want anyone worrying

 

i understand what you all are saying. i'm just taking it all in and weighing it all. im sure i'll be back with more questions lol

 

meg

[wudangspirit]

I have one problem with your comment on no difference between Tao and God theory...

 

Actually the big difference is in the follower. Taoists believe that we have total free will and we can make our own destiny and dreams happen through non-attachment and free ourselves from the mundane by cultivation. This concept is totally different from the Christian view of what "God" has in store for us. Tao is Tao because the name is within the concept. Tao "way" is just a name given to call it something. "God" in the Christian sense has been given an attached overall governing body.

 

As Taoist we attain"?" Tao by stillness in cultivation. No God or governing body does this for us. Yes we have a pantheon but those would probably be most related to the Catholic concept of "Saints".

 

Everyone has their Tao. Your Tao is YOUR Tao.

 

Wudangspirit

 

quote name='Taoist81' date='Jul 3 2008, 03:40 PM' post='68341']

But when a true Christian (i.e. one who really believes, not just in emergencies) prays, it is as Jesus taught, that is, "Thy will be done". Even Jesus subjected his petitions to God to "God's will". So in the end, there is no difference. A believer can pray for answers or health etc. all day long, and it will change nothing unless it is already God's will to do something. Similarly, a Taoist, following close to the Tao will see the "will" of the Tao carried out in his life. He may do an I Ching reading for answers, or perform a sacrifice to some deity, but in the end the Tao simply "is", just as God simply "is". Prayer and meditation are simply ways to bring the individual closer to the "divine". "I do not know its name. Call it Tao. For lack of a better word I call it Great." says Lao Tzu. Similarly in the deeper mystic traditions of the Abrahamic faiths, the highest concept of God that man can com close to imagining is titled "I am" or rather simply "Being". Beyond that is the Limitless and Nothing.

So, in the deepest ways, there is no difference between Tao and "God". In the baser forms of religion, there are differences in some ways, in that "god" would simply be lower than the Tao. No different than the many Taoist deities that one can petition for changes in your health or bank account.

 

 

Agree on some parts. True Taoism is self cultivation by transmuting Jing to Qi and Qi to Shen and Shen to Void to Tao.

The religion came later. However, as a practicing Taoist from the Wudang Longmen Neidan Pai Sect, we do have religious music and ceremonies but those are just ways of raising our spirits and bringing other spirits into our lives. Blessings.

 

Daoist religion is not true Dao! IMHO

 

 

Well put! Tao is Tao. God is God. In the Taoist world......"JUST WORDS! JUST WORDS"

 

What is called "the dao" is the potentiality, it is not manifest. Everything is manifest from it. It's not thinking. It's not pulling strings. It has no grand plan, or compassion, or purpose for anything. It is impartial. People grant the dao divinity or power only because they assume something powerful must have a higher purpose.

 

God is a concept, an icon, an idol. Something people make responsible for what they can't control. Something people can blame for things that don't go the way they wish they would.

 

There is no correlation between the dao and god.

 

 

Lin,

 

Well put and well respected answer. This is an answer of pure virtue

 

A being becomes a god through their merit and virtue. That which is called Dao, is just as it is, non-dual, and yet all things reside in it, as it. One the discriminating mind points to the direction, label, of "Dao". there is already a falsity, and thus separation begins...Yin and Yang. Those two are relative, and will be that way till the mind of relativity/duality is transformed.

 

When a cultivator of the way communicates with beings of the god-mind, it is not the manner in which Christians would. Though the God of the 33rd Heaven is the same god of Judeo-Christian faith, when asked for things, the methods are a bit different in Daoism. The only way to actually get a response is through a sincere heart, proper in virtue and moral.

 

The god of the 33rd Heaven, Judeo-Christian god, in Daoism is none other than the Jade Emperor; Yu Huang Da Di. Hindu and Buddhist schools; Shakra Indra.

Peace,

Lin

 

 

The difference of Christian and Taoist Concepts....

 

Christians believe through their good actions on earth according to what Jesus has taught them they can "go" to heaven.

 

As Taoist we believe by cultivation, virtue and purifyng by non-attachment we can "grow" into heaven and become one as heaven.

 

I am not sure that I understand this clearly.

 

It is my understanding that the cultivator of the way is attempting to become one with the way and transcend the duality of ying-yang relativity, which you have stated clearly above.

 

However you then proceed to discuss the circumstance of a cultivator of the way attempting to communicate with beings of the god-mind, and how virtue, sincerity and concentration are necessary to get an actual response.

 

Now it seems to me a cultivator of the way in the first case, who is attempting directly to overcome the error of a dualistic mindset, is at a different 'level' than one who attempting to communicate with a 'separate' being of the god-mind since discrimination is implied in this act.

[meg]

what is "heaven" to a taoist? enlightment?

[Taoist81]

Actually the big difference is in the follower. Taoists believe that we have total free will and we can make our own destiny and dreams happen through non-attachment and free ourselves from the mundane by cultivation. This concept is totally different from the Christian view of what "God" has in store for us. Tao is Tao because the name is within the concept. Tao "way" is just a name given to call it something. "God" in the Christian sense has been given an attached overall governing body.

 

Sure, to the majority of Xians there is a pretty big difference between God and Tao, but the majority of Xians are uneducated (at least theologically) people who basically believe because "they will go to hell if the don't". One only benefits from these types of comparisons if one compares the "highest concepts" embedded in differing traditions. This is why when Muslims and Xians were killing each other for centuries, Sufis and Xian mystics were comparing notes and accepting of each other. "God" is just a label for the infinite and infinitesimal as well.

 

As Taoist we attain"?" Tao by stillness in cultivation. No God or governing body does this for us. Yes we have a pantheon but those would probably be most related to the Catholic concept of "Saints".

 

The religion came later. However, as a practicing Taoist from the Wudang Longmen Neidan Pai Sect, we do have religious music and ceremonies but those are just ways of raising our spirits and bringing other spirits into our lives. Blessings.

 

This is exactly the point. The idea that "the religion came later". It always happens this way. Nearly every religion began with some mystic wandering in the wilderness (or in the city) and having an experience then trying to pass that on. Later followers codified the moral teachings and demand adherence. Then you end up with ritual solely as "the husk of faith". Those Xians who truly explore their relationship with "God" experience a cultivation comparable with that of ALL mystic traditions. The idea of "God" "doing this for" a believer is erroneous just as much as saying that a Taoist cultivator "does it on his/her own". It is inherent in the human being, while not being just the "natural progression". Both the Taoist and the True Christian must work toward oneness. Alan Watts' Behold the Spirit covers this apparent contradiction in a rather more in depth way than space here allows.

 

Christians believe through their good actions on earth according to what Jesus has taught them they can "go" to heaven.

 

As Taoist we believe by cultivation, virtue and purifyng by non-attachment we can "grow" into heaven and become one as heaven.

"Jesus said: If those who lead you say unto you: Behold, the Kingdom is in heaven, then the birds of the heaven will be before you. If they say unto you: It is in the sea, then the fish will be before you. But the Kingdom is within you, and it is outside of you. When you know yourselves, then shall you be known, and you shall know that you are the sons of the living Father. But if ye do not know yourselves, then you are in poverty, and you are poverty."

"Jesus said: I am the light that is over them all. I am the All; the All has come forth from me, and the All has attained unto me. Cleave a (piece of) wood: I am there. Raise up the stone, an ye shall find me there."

"Jesus saw some infants at the breast. He said to his disciples: These little ones at the breast are like those who enter into the kingdom. They said to him: If we then be children, shall we enter the kingdom? Jesus said to them: When you make the two one, and when you make the inside as the outside, and the outside as the inside, and the upper side as the lower; and when you make the male and the female into a single one, that the male be not male and the female female; when you make eyes in the place of an eye, and a hand in place of a hand, and a foot in place of a foot, an image in place of an image, then shall you enter [the kingdom]. "

 

-The Gospel of Thomas

 

There is much more to the teachings of Jesus than most people, even Christians, give them credit for.

Still, you and others are quite right about the distinction that should be made between the concept of god for the common believer and the mystic, just as distinction should be made between the beliefs of the "common Taoist" and the "cultivator".

[wudangspirit]

A Taoist thinks of how to get the hell out of the building before he/she gets burned.

 

hi everyone. this is a very interesting post and something i have had a difficult time figuring out also. i just have this one question (so far ) ... if a taoist finds him or herself in a dangerous situation, say in a burning building, what goes through the taoists head? of course we are all different and we dont always know how we would react in a situation like that. but i know for myself, right now, at this point in my life, i would be praying like crazy for God to help me lol. Now a taoist?...what might he/she be thinking/praying/etc?

 

meg

[Eisenhans]

....well, one would hope the Taoist, or anyone else for that matter, would be trying to find a way out of the dangerous situation rather than praying to an invisible man/woman/spaghetti monster/pink unicorn to magically teleport them from the situation. Jumping out a window would be much more effective in most cases.

 

In Germany, we say "Hilf dir selbst, dann hilft dir Gott" (Help yourself, then God will help you). Which would probably mean to jump out of a window

 

Basically, it means that if you get into trouble, just do your best and it will go alright - if you've been training cultivation, that is. Reminds me a bit of REH's Conan the Barbarian "Crom gave you strength to fight, what more could you ask for?" or something like that.