Internal Martial Arts Training Schedule

[松永道]

It's summer, late summer, but still summer. The days are getting shorter but there's still plenty of yang to go around. It's a good time to build body strength, flexibility, and practice outside with the rising and setting sun (maybe more).

 

But what's the best way?

 

I am looking to structure a training schedule that incorporates Taijiquan, qigong, meditation, and bodyweight exercise. My goal is to improve overall flexibility, posture, and strength. And I'd really like to get closer to being able to do the splits (I'm absolutely terrible at the side splits)!

 

Time: According to The Yellow Emperor's Classic, 5-7am and pm are good times for exercise. 11-1 noon and midnight are best for meditation. Now I interpret this as roughly sunrise and sunset are workout times. You can enjoy the outdoors, the sun light, but you won't get burned (externally or internally)

 

Structure: I've heard many fitness gurus say life weights first, then do cardio. I've heard at Shaolin, the students generally start with calisthenics, then do form work. This would lead me to believe one should start with the hard stuff - body weight exercise, hard qigong, etc - for the first hour or so then switch to soft stuff - Taijiquan form, qigong - for the next hour or more. It seems to me morning should be harder on the muscles and evening should be more internally focused. What do you think?

 

How do you train?

[Gerard]

What do you think?

 

How do you train?

 

 

Train according to your year of birth and earth location. Every one is different.

 

You should read a bit of TCM theory and understand how everything works.

 

Links:

 

http://www.chinavoc.com/zodiac/

http://chineseastrologyonline.com/5EBasic.htm

 

Can't answer these questions online unless you tell us more about yourself, not your plans.

 

GL.

[Ryan T.]

 

I am looking to structure a training schedule that incorporates Taijiquan, qigong, meditation, and bodyweight exercise. My goal is to improve overall flexibility, posture, and strength. And I'd really like to get closer to being able to do the splits (I'm absolutely terrible at the side splits)!

 

 

How do you train?

 

How dedicated to your T'ai-Chi practice are you? And how far along are you? If you are doing form several times a day you will be getting your T'ai-Chi as well as your meditation. Qigong can well be a part of your form practice as well. And I ask how far along you are because weapons training(sword, knife and spear) will give you a tremendous upper body workout. Keep in mind that some of the greatest internal martial arts players did no hard exercises at all. It was all about "the soft overcoming the hard".

 

Of course, if you want these practices to be separate that is your choice but that is really the beauty of the T'ai-Chi system. It really has everything you need to achieve perfect health.

 

I am not aware of what may be the best times to be active according to TCM. I have a life in the city which does not necessarily allow me have the ability to make such choices about when I can train.

[doc benway]

I tend to organize my schedule based on what my body tells me.

It varies a bit as I don't have enough time to practice everything every day.

Here's my approximate schedule:

 

5-6am seated meditation

Followed by:

Qi Gong (Gu Chuan Ba Duan Jin or Shi Ba Luo Han)

Strengthening training for ji, an, cai, lu

Tai Ji form for 40-60 minutes (lately Chen Pan Ling's form)

Nei Gong or Zhan Zhuang ~ 20 min

If I have extra time I'll add weapons forms. Usually I do the weapons later in the evening at the school.

 

I don't do any weights but I think building muscle tone and bulk can be very helpful as long as it's balanced with stretching and not overdone.

I disagree with the statement that the greatest internal players did no hard exercises at all.

Most of them were already extremely skilled external artists who later studied internals.

Very few of the greats did nothing but soft and we really don't know much about their personal training routines other than legend and hearsay...

Our internal program at advanced levels has a fair amount of strengthening exercise utilizing training aids for those serious about martial training, not necessarily weight lifting but strengthening exercises nonetheless.

 

Good luck!

[Ryan T.]

I disagree with the statement that the greatest internal players did no hard exercises at all.

Most of them were already extremely skilled external artists who later studied internals.

Very few of the greats did nothing but soft and we really don't know much about their personal training routines other than legend and hearsay...

 

 

 

Cheng Man Ching?

[doc benway]

Cheng Man Ching?

Do we know that he never did more strenuous exercise than Tai Ji? It's possible.

Is he truly one of "the greatest internal players"? Perhaps - he's certainly one of the most well known since he was one of the first to teach on a wide scale in the US and Taiwan. Some proclaim his martial skill, others suggest that his skill was more in the arts and health arena - I have no idea which is more accurate.

 

For the sake of discussion, let's assume he was one of the greatest, that's one...

[Ryan T.]

 

For the sake of discussion, let's assume he was one of the greatest, that's one...

 

And I would mention Grandmaster Wai Lun Choi. Although it mostly backs up what you are saying, I am reminded how Grandmaster Choi started with the harder styles, Lama in specific. But what I have read is that he sought out the internal styles due to the level of energy depletion he felt after his hard style fights/training. He seems(and this is all paraphrasing) to have felt that the body mechanics were all off. There wasn't a whole body connection. But he did find that in the internals(specifically Liu Ho Ba Fa).

 

I only mention it before because I don't know if a lot of people give the internals their due. And I think most start with the hard training as that is much more available. Plus, it is a lot easier to train the hard. It takes a lot more patience to train the soft energy. And it is no coincidence that most that find the internal after starting with the hard rarely go back.

 

Ultimately it all depends what you want of/for yourself. I just always try to emphasize that everything is there in T'ai-Chi!

[doc benway]

But what I have read is that he sought out the internal styles due to the level of energy depletion he felt after his hard style fights/training. He seems(and this is all paraphrasing) to have felt that the body mechanics were all off. There wasn't a whole body connection. But he did find that in the internals(specifically Liu Ho Ba Fa).

 

I agree with you completely on this point and I understand what you're saying. I also think that with proper instruction and enough time, you come to the same endpoint whether you find the hard in soft (internal) or find the soft in the hard (external). They converge at the highest levels. Internals are focused on the mind/body connection so the mechanics and whole body connection come early, that's why the training is often slow and involves a lot of meditation, whether standing, sitting, or walking.

 

Unfortunately, a lot of people think that soft is all that is necessary. THey're in for a rude awakening. It is a misconception that you defeat the hard with only the soft. You learn to yield to the hard (that in a sense is overcoming the hard with the soft). However, and I think this is critical, you don't defeat the opponent with the soft. There must be the hard to attack and disable or defeat the opponent. I yield to your force and neutralize it, then what? Maybe I'll pluck you with very little force but that will not end a violent conflict. I must attack with great force to disable a skilled opponent. That's why it's so important to develop power, be it through fajin training and neigong and martial qigong or weight lifting or a combination. Effective power doesn't magically appear due to meditation or form practice. It requires training and at least some degree of physical strength. Muscles must contract rapidly and forcefully to transmit the force.

 

THe point I'm trying to emphasize is that Tai Ji Quan (and the other internals) is not soft boxing. Maybe most English speakers would be better off thinking of it as Yin/Yang boxing or even hard/soft boxing. It is balanced, like Yin and Yang. People always call Tai Ji Quan 'Supreme Ultimate Boxing". I think that's a terrible translation. When the native Chinese speaker hears Tai Ji, he does not hear the English equivalent of "Supreme Ultimate." He thinks of the Daoist philosophical principles of yin and yang and wu wei and all that complex concept entails. The words Tai Ji are bursting with meaning. Supreme Ultimate just sounds like 'the greatest thing since swiss cheese" - the translation does a terrible dis-service to the art, IMO. To use Tai Ji principles in real combat, or even a friendly push hands match, requires a balance of force and yielding, hard and soft.

 

Sorry to be so wordy and dogmatic but I can get quite passionate talking about my favorite subject!

[Junbao]

I remember reading that Cheng Man Ching did some kind of intense qigong similar to Iron Body when he lived in China or Taiwan. I would have to go back to get more details though. Maybe in Wolfe Lowenthal's (sp?) book.

I think it's good to take care of your body by keeping your muscles fit, and stretching. I like to do Pilates for core, and Hindu pushups for upper body. I ride my bike to work everyday, and on weekends, so that takes care of my legs. I can't stand being in a gym, so I have to find things I enjoy that add a healthy bonus.

I like to do some standing forms in low stances to stretch and warm up the legs, the some Kung Fu forms to get the Chi moving, then some Tai Chi to smooth it out....

[Ryan T.]

 

 

Unfortunately, a lot of people think that soft is all that is necessary. THey're in for a rude awakening. It is a misconception that you defeat the hard with only the soft. You learn to yield to the hard (that in a sense is overcoming the hard with the soft). However, and I think this is critical, you don't defeat the opponent with the soft. There must be the hard to attack and disable or defeat the opponent. I yield to your force and neutralize it, then what? Maybe I'll pluck you with very little force but that will not end a violent conflict. I must attack with great force to disable a skilled opponent. That's why it's so important to develop power, be it through fajin training and neigong and martial qigong or weight lifting or a combination. Effective power doesn't magically appear due to meditation or form practice. It requires training and at least some degree of physical strength. Muscles must contract rapidly and forcefully to transmit the force.

 

 

 

We will have to agree to disagree on part of this. My understanding, and this is not just an intellectual understanding, and belief is that at it's core T'ai-Chi(and all the internal martial arts) are about power. But not muscular power. The power comes from various sources. Chi, 9-jointed harmony, using your opponents energy against him and solidly trained techniques in sensitivity. But it should always be soft. Why else can a 70 or 80 year old internal guy throw a much younger, stronger external guy. I've seen this and I have felt this type of power. It has nothing to do with muscles. Maybe I am misreading what you are saying but as I read it it seems counter to core ideas of the internal styles.

[doc benway]

We will have to agree to disagree on part of this.

That's fine, I certainly do disagree with...

But it should always be soft.

That's simply false and is unfortunately a wide spread fantasy propogated by people who don't really understand internal martial arts. Tai Ji is hard and soft, as is Xing Yi and Ba Gua. No martial style is all soft.

 

Why else can a 70 or 80 year old internal guy throw a much younger, stronger external guy.

Throwing doesn't require a lot of muscle power when done properly, it's timing and leverage. Now, if a 70 year old guy beat up an MMA guy, I'd be convinced!

 

Maybe I am misreading what you are saying but as I read it it seems counter to core ideas of the internal styles.

I think you are understanding me correctly.

I am not going counter to core ideas of internal styles.

I am going counter to the idealistic, unrealistic ideas about internal styles that some people have propogated inaccurately. Anyone who trains in applying Tai Ji, Xing Yi, and Ba Gua in the street or the ring will attest to this. It's only people who haven't tested their art in competition or combat, who fantasize a fighting method which is all soft.

 

Even Cheng Man Ching - look at this video on youtube. Check out ~ 1:00 when it gets to the pushing demonstration. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fs_611ZXXuA

This is all muscle power. He's using his arms to push his opponent with external muscular force. In fact, this is not even a good demonstration of an, this is all external force. An means to push down or to sink the palms and is a short range, fajin strike. In an the hands only move a few inches. Not at all what Master Cheng is doing in this video... Master Cheng's arms are pushing outward a good 2 feet! I'm sure he was a great martial artist but this push is not an example of his skill, IMO.

 

Anyway, enough debate. It would be much better if we could get together and discuss and share in person where we could demonstrate techniques in a friendly way and try to make our points and convince eachother. Doing this in words in cyberspace is usually a futile exercise. I wish you the best in your training! I'd be happy to carry this on by PM or email, if you want to explore it further. In public, I just feel like I'm ranting and being argumentative at this point. That's not my intention and I don't want to appear arrogant or unfriendly.

Thanks for the interesting discussion my friend!

 

Song Yong Dao - sorry for hijacking your thread!!

_/\_

[Ryan T.]

 

Anyway, enough debate. It would be much better if we could get together and discuss and share in person where we could demonstrate techniques in a friendly way and try to make our points and convince eachother. Doing this in words in cyberspace is usually a futile exercise. I wish you the best in your training! I'd be happy to carry this on by PM or email, if you want to explore it further. In public, I just feel like I'm ranting and being argumentative at this point. That's not my intention and I don't want to appear arrogant or unfriendly.

Thanks for the interesting discussion my friend!

 

Song Yong Dao - sorry for hijacking your thread!!

 

 

Agreed!

[松永道]

I'm very happy with my taiji training, generally practice through the form for at least an hour a day. Soon I'll have some people to play push-hands with and this will help with the muscle building aspect immensely.

 

I ask about more muscular training because I have never trained an external martial art and I feel my progress in Taijiquan is hindered because of that. Practicing the form soft, even for a life time, may give health benefits but it will not result in martial power.

 

Taiji means the supreme extremes. That is yin and yang.

 

A muscle must not know only how to relax, but also how to contract,

A mind must not only know open no-thought, but also focused concentration

Power lies between the extremes. Moving between the extremes.

 

Daodejing 36 speaks of this nature:

That which shrinks

Must first expand.

That which fails

Must first be strong.

That which is cast down

Must first be raised.

Before receiving

There must be giving.

This is called perception of the nature of things.

Soft and weak overcome hard and strong.

 

 

The baby boy begins life soft, a soft mind without words, a soft body without power

And to become man be turns hard, shapes his ego, uses action, achieves by will

Then the sage returns to soft, non-action, and completes the circle.

 

Shen descends into qi, qi coagulates into jing

Jing transforms into qi, qi transforms into shen

 

After some honesty with myself, I find my Jing is still insufficient to fuel my journey back to Shen. In other words, I have yet to transform from boy into man, let alone man into sage. Why not revel in the beauty of form and names before returning to the void!

 

But enough philosophy!

 

Xuesheng, thank you very much for your average training schedule. I know everyone needs to make their own but seeing how other people practice helps a lot. I like your structure: meditation, opening the body with qigong, strengthening, form work, then sealing it in. Good logic. May I ask what your strength exercises involve? Are they muscle contraction calisthenics or do you practice with some sort of object?

 

Thank you everyone, I see no hi-jacking, ranting or unfriendliness.

 

三人同行，必有我师焉！

[VCraigP]

It's summer, late summer, but still summer. The days are getting shorter but there's still plenty of yang to go around. It's a good time to build body strength, flexibility, and practice outside with the rising and setting sun (maybe more).

 

But what's the best way?

 

I am looking to structure a training schedule that incorporates Taijiquan, qigong, meditation, and bodyweight exercise. My goal is to improve overall flexibility, posture, and strength. And I'd really like to get closer to being able to do the splits (I'm absolutely terrible at the side splits)!

 

Time: According to The Yellow Emperor's Classic, 5-7am and pm are good times for exercise. 11-1 noon and midnight are best for meditation. Now I interpret this as roughly sunrise and sunset are workout times. You can enjoy the outdoors, the sun light, but you won't get burned (externally or internally)

 

Structure: I've heard many fitness gurus say life weights first, then do cardio. I've heard at Shaolin, the students generally start with calisthenics, then do form work. This would lead me to believe one should start with the hard stuff - body weight exercise, hard qigong, etc - for the first hour or so then switch to soft stuff - Taijiquan form, qigong - for the next hour or more. It seems to me morning should be harder on the muscles and evening should be more internally focused. What do you think?

 

How do you train?

 

 

Last fall I added Kettlebell training to my routine. At that time I was using qigong (28 lunar mansions) as the warmup for the kettlebell training. Later in the day I would do Taiji, or would have done it earlier as a seperate practice. Meditation time has usually only been in the morning (Tu gu na Xing...I think you know it).

But I would also sometimes sit in half lotus after Kettlebell training and sit and breath in meditation. The KB workout definitely warmed up and opened my hips so therefore helped become more comfortable in the sitting.

 

For years I practiced taekwondo twice a week from 6-8 PM. This became almost hardwired into my system as an ideal time to workout. Perhaps my body liked it because is was close to the 5-7PM time you mentioned.

 

Couldn't you do your taiji form faster to emhasize calistenics? Maybe I haven't practiced enough yet, but my forms practice often raises my heartbeat significantly (not like KB's of course).

 

Does your "hard qigong" come from the same teacher as the Zhaobao Taiji??

 

What does your Taiji master think about this line of thinking? have you broached this with him?

 

From what you told me when we met, and from what I observed, you were receiving specific instruction in how to train the form in order to develop certain aspects. How does your proposed body weight training fit in with this? How does the hard style qigong?

 

Can you describe more fully what is the hard style qigong? How about describing the meditation practice?

 

Craig

[松永道]

 

 

Can you describe more fully what is the hard style qigong? How about describing the meditation practice?

 

Craig

 

Hey Craig, how have you been?

 

The hard qigong stuff is part of the Taijiquan. In part, it's muscle-tendon changing through the Taiji form instead of doing a separate Yi Jin Jing form. However, this practice is "without form", and should be practiced in addition to "with form" practice. The "with form" practices involve walls, sandbags, or best of all, another person. Push hands is the number one "with form" practice for building the body (practice soft to build listening ability etc or practice hard to build muscle). I should be practicing push hands for an hour a day but the Doctor and his senior student are both too busy with running the clinic, especially with the approaching Olympic madness.

 

So until I find some good push hands partners, bodyweight exercise seems like a good runner up. If I could find kettle bells out here I might give them a try.

 

The sitting practice is either neidan (the one Dr. Xi taught at Louguantai with some additions) or wu-wei depending on the time of day. Noontime, bright, yang, and hot, is great for a siesta wu-wei meditation.

[Ryan T.]

 

So until I find some good push hands partners, bodyweight exercise seems like a good runner up. If I could find kettle bells out here I might give them a try.

 

My beliefs on internal vs. external training aside, the best overall body workout I have found are the Combat Conditioning exercises offered by Matt Furey. The Hindu squats, Hindu push-ups and back-bridges will improve your core/body strength as well as your flexibility beyond belief. If a person gives just those 3 exercises a total of 25 minutes a day, he will be amazed. And the beauty of those exercises is that you no equipment other than your own body.

[松永道]

My beliefs on internal vs. external training aside, the best overall body workout I have found are the Combat Conditioning exercises offered by Matt Furey. The Hindu squats, Hindu push-ups and back-bridges will improve your core/body strength as well as your flexibility beyond belief. If a person gives just those 3 exercises a total of 25 minutes a day, he will be amazed. And the beauty of those exercises is that you no equipment other than your own body.

 

Awesome thanks, I'll give them a try!

[yatzhong]

I've always been told that 3-5 am is the best time for qigong & zhan zhuang because this is the time that the lungs were most active.

 

I've done zhan zhuang at 4am for many years now and have realized some great results from it. I do a type of standing that incorporates both the yijinching and marrow washing practices in it. Proper body method (shen fa), breathing and moving can give someone all the results he is looking for. Strength, flexibility, internal strength etc can all be gained from the traditional practices. I've never found a need for kettle bells, weights or any other equipment or exercises outside of the traditional ones taught within the many systems of Chinese martial arts. If you learn and practice them properly I don't believe that outside material is necessary for great results but perhaps I've just never been interested in looking elsewhere.

 

As for Cheng Man Ching, well he did zhan zhuang postures from the form until he could not stand any more but I don't think he taught this practice to many students. Ben Lo is one of them though and he still teaches the standing.

 

There is also a set of 24 nei gong exercises that Cheng taught for strengthening the body. The results are that one becomes very strong internally and develops the "iron shirt" so to speak. These exercises are very similar to other 24 nei gong sets that I've seen & practiced from different systems. Sometimes the exercises are labeled iron vest nei gong. They work the body from the inside out through various stretching, standing & twisting exercises.

[VCraigP]

 

Proper body method (shen fa), breathing and moving can give someone all the results he is looking for. Strength, flexibility, internal strength etc can all be gained from the traditional practices. I've never found a need for kettle bells, weights or any other equipment or exercises outside of the traditional ones taught within the many systems of Chinese martial arts. If you learn and practice them properly I don't believe that outside material is necessary for great results but perhaps I've just never been interested in looking elsewhere.

 

 

Yatzhong

I agree with you somewhat. In fact considering what I know of Song...'s training and his access to instruction in China with a Master I am somewhat puzzled as to why he is feeling the need to seek out supplemental training to what is already there. But so he is.

Actually some of the best improvements in my structure and opening of my hips from KB training came from the warm up exercises, which are comprised solely of two bodyweight exercises. The wall squat and the other one which looks like a cobra pose. The Wall squat is done by getting as close to a wall as possible and performing a squat while keeping the spine straight and not pionting the knees out to the sides. It forces you to open up the kua (qua?). The other is like the cobra pose and downward dog, but you pry your hips from side to side opening up your hip flexors. doing these everyday probably did a lot for my hips without reference to the KB training. But the ballistic flexing of the hips in the KB movement was very good too. I am not entirely convinced that strength training is best done only with bodyweight and traditional movements and training techniques. I am also not convinced KBs are the best way. I know they were very effective at increasing my overall strength VERY fast (at age 43). I can heartily recommend them over standard weight training which I do not do at all.

I have added standing in the 8 positions of the mother form recently and this has been good training. Always good to go back to the foundation.

 

all for now.

 

Craig

[松永道]

 

I agree with you somewhat. In fact considering what I know of Song...'s training and his access to instruction in China with a Master I am somewhat puzzled as to why he is feeling the need to seek out supplemental training to what is already there. But so he is.

 

 

Admittedly, I have all the access I need. Maybe I'm a fool, I should just practice what I've learned. However, I'm not training in the traditional way, the world just won't allow it. One of the problems with tradition is that it was designed in and for a different time.

 

I want to be true to the Dao, hold on to yin and embrace yang. That means holding on to tradition but also staying open to other things. What tradition really preserves is a way of thinking. Like with Chinese medicine, you can change the treatments, drugs, new tools, machines, but you need to hold on to that way of thinking, the traditional logic for synthesizing patterns. That's the core. Acupuncture, herbs, and massage are just the branches. Tradition, if it's really alive, needs to evolve and adapt along with us.

 

My learning style here is not just to come with only questions but to also at least attempt my own solution. So far, so good.