David Verdesi

[amacgregor]

Ok, so this is my first post at Tao Bums and I wanted to start with something that caught my attention and I feel the need to discuss, I have been some research on David Verdesi which I suppose everyone here know or at least have heard about him.

 

Before going further I started this post with the idea of having a objective, impartial discussion; I don't want or pretend to attack David Verdesi nor his students; so with that in mind please try to past objective comments and avoid personal attacks.

 

So after reading some of the Sean Denty posts (here, on other forums, in some mailing lists) and researching a more about David Verdesi and John Chang; I found myself with some inner conflict; one part of my is excited about the feats, the comments, the illusion of the kind of training that David offers and their Master's histories related by SeanDenty also sound wonderful and exciting, but there is also the part of my that smells something funny and its not completely sure that this is not another scam or cult like group.

 

Ok, why I say this ? I have always had the strong belief that real knowledge and enlightenment doesn't come to a material price, I can understand the courses and seminars costing $6500 -$7500 dlls or any similar amount if the knowledge and training imparted on the seminars is real then the money is worthed and the price is just small in comparison to what you are going to receive.

 

But honestly I was just dissapointed when looking for the Foundation Forum I find that they cost $125 dlls to read even if its a lifetime fee; it doesn't seems right to me, at least to some level the knowledge should be free, sure they have the right to make a living from it, to restrict the higher teachings to only advanced and approved students, but to charge just to enter the forums and learn more about David, the Path he teaches etc.

 

I have always believe that the knowledge is to serve the human kind, to help us achieve a higher balance as society, individuals and as humanity in general, for that reason knowledge is priceless and (at least for me) sharing knowledge is one highest forms of compassion.

 

 

I might be wrong, please doubt about what I say and more importantly doubt about yourselfs

[qijack]

David has had many students,more than hundred im sure of that, that he has taken to china and to meet his masters.Not one of those students has come out saying david and his masters are a sham.I think that in itself is saying something

 

And out of all the masters that claim special powers these days.David is actually the only masters that has been able to back these claims up with proof, that i have seen anyway

 

Ive seen video's of his masters that were not ment to come out that looked pretty damn convincing plus all the accounts of the students that have met david and his masters

[sunshine]

A happy Hi,

 

I assume this is not going to be the nice thread you'd like it to be... except those who have been fighting over it stay in the background or simply point you to the specific threads... sorry to say.

 

There is not really that much need to become a forum member... and the charge is there to keep the just curious out... at least this is the way I understand it. It has become more a place for students for exchange. It helps to focus on the matters at hand... having people in there who where just in for a challenge produced unnecessary quarrels. Not that challenges are bad in any way. It was just that it was not the intent of the forum for people to challenge David. More a place to learn from him...

 

If you want to stay informed on future seminars and other stuff:

 

http://www.zhengzongdadao.com/

 

there is meant to be more information available in the future on this side... so hopefully a lot of what you are looking for will be up sooner or later...

 

with

 

Harry

 

 

 

 

David has had many students,more than hundred im sure of that, that he has taken to china and to meet his masters.Not one of those students has come out saying david and his masters are a sham.I think that in itself is saying something.

 

lets say that there are at least some who have their fair share of doubts... otherwise it would hardly be believable... and it is true to certain extent...

[amacgregor]

A happy Hi,

 

I assume this is not going to be the nice thread you'd like it to be... except those who have been fighting over it stay in the background or simply point you to the specific threads... sorry to say.

 

There is not really that much need to become a forum member... and the charge is there to keep the just curious out... at least this is the way I understand it. It has become more a place for students for exchange. It helps to focus on the matters at hand... having people in there who where just in for a challenge produced unnecessary quarrels. Not that challenges are bad in any way. It was just that it was not the intent of the forum for people to challenge David. More a place to learn from him...

 

If you want to stay informed on future seminars and other stuff:

 

http://www.zhengzongdadao.com/

 

there is meant to be more information available in the future on this side... so hopefully a lot of what you are looking for will be up sooner or later...

 

with

 

Harry

 

Ok the forums arguments sounds very convincing and I found the logic that you are talking about, charging that fee will surely keep curious out, and after wandering on the forums site a little more I found that for David students forum access is free or almost free.

 

Yes, I know this thread its probably going to get nasty at some point, I hope it doesn't but there will always will be people with not enough maturity and/or consciousness that will act based on primal impulses.

 

As for David been a sham, I don't say he is and I really wish that he is not ... actually next year I'm starting a trip to Asia starting on Thailand going through all southeast Asia and arriving at Beijing,China ... I'm doing some way of long term backpacking called Vagabonding, my hope and my dream is to have the opportunity of just know some of the real masters and even if possible by a long shot learn and study a bit with them.

 

That's why I'm doing research of all the master over the world, and David caught my attention for sure. Let's see what the destiny has saved for me.

 

Regards

[Yoda]

Allan,

 

I have faith in what I've read on this forum about David Shen that he's legitimate and knows what he's talking about. Since there's no way I'm going to pay $10,000 and practice 4 hours a day to find out more, that's the end of the road for me.

 

I think it's totally fine to charge 10k or 100k, etc for one's teachings. Actually, I charge even more than that. That way the teacher can control how many students she has and what kind of a lifestyle she wants. Since David plugs you into a very traditional Chinese setting, he really needs a high degree of seriousness and quality control so he doesn't irritate his associates with a bunch of us crazy gringos so hence the 10k.

 

There are plenty of other schools out there that charge just $20 for the book or, check this out, the book is free online: advancedyogapractices.com. The levitation siddhi is $10 but compare that to several K-bars you'd fork out to learn how to fly in the TM world and it's a serious bargain. (Results may vary. My ass was totally grounded. )

 

My quest for truth is Internet based... fewer mosquitoes!

 

Your pal,

Yoda

[amacgregor]

Allan,

 

I have faith in what I've read on this forum about David Shen that he's legitimate and knows what he's talking about. Since there's no way I'm going to pay $10,000 and practice 4 hours a day to find out more, that's the end of the road for me.

 

I think it's totally fine to charge 10k or 100k, etc for one's teachings. Actually, I charge even more than that. That way the teacher can control how many students she has and what kind of a lifestyle she wants. Since David plugs you into a very traditional Chinese setting, he really needs a high degree of seriousness and quality control so he doesn't irritate his associates with a bunch of us crazy gringos so hence the 10k.

 

There are plenty of other schools out there that charge just $20 for the book or, check this out, the book is free online: advancedyogapractices.com. The levitation siddhi is $10 but compare that to several K-bars you'd fork out to learn how to fly in the TM world and it's a serious bargain. (Results may vary. My ass was totally grounded. )

 

Your pal,

Yoda

 

Yoda,

 

HAHAAH!! I agree with you, its totally fine to charge 10k, 100K, one million doesn't matter ... the only thing here is that there is a thin line between money making and the student quality control, for example if Master Verdesi got to know a devoted student, a student that really is willing to learn, but the student doesn't have any money will he still teach that student?

 

Also I think there are a bunch of better ways of filtering the "crazy gringos"; there still will be a lot of crazy people willing to pay 10K just for curiosity and probably its people that will not really understand, care or its ready for the kind of training that its supposed to be.

 

Saying " well we charge this huge amount of money to teach you our knowledge/system/path and this amount of money is charged only to filter those unworthy/ fake students " sounds a little deceiving .... what happen with the people that are willing to learn but cannot pay ? they are not worthy ? they don't deserve to learn ? to be teach?

 

It's easy to agree with the logic of charging large sums of money, but look at the background, the true bottom of things, I'm more of the philosophy of the master teach the students that want to learn.

 

Money and enlightenment, sounds like two things that go in the same path to you ?

 

There are hundreds of ways he can filter the bad students or unprepared ones.

 

Again I agree charging what ever sum for teaching is okay as long your goal is to win money and not to really teach and help the human kind.

 

Regards

[sunshine]

Saying " well we charge this huge amount of money to teach you our knowledge/system/path and this amount of money is charged only to filter those unworthy/ fake students " sounds a little deceiving .... what happen with the people that are willing to learn but cannot pay ? they are not worthy ? they don't deserve to learn ? to be teach?

 

Ya know. I found that there is one statement that can be used for one to be at ease:

 

"The will of heaven"

 

I have learned to live fine with that. If it is the will of heaven I will find my way, if it is not then I won't... so I won't go for the training this year because I just quit my job and have to create a new one and some other issues... and if I never find my way to get there it will have reasons beyond my comprehension...

 

and no. The money for the seminars sure is not charged to filter the worthy from the unworthy, but I can tell you one thing for sure: Those who are truly dedicated work towards it... those who are not stop at one point...

 

 

Harry

[Yoda]

And then there is the principle where the shaman will charge the client a lot of money. The more the Shaman charges, the more effective is the treatment.

 

Milarepa and Marpa, and many others had to pay dearly for their instructions... You have to even out the karma to make the teachings work, so Marpa had to risk life and limb for greater and greater amounts of gold. He asked his teacher, who was penniless, why he had to give the guy so much gold and Naropa touched the ground and turned the whole earth to gold and said that he could make as much gold as he needed but that he was driving Marpa to the edge as a vehicle for his enlightenment.

 

Different paths have different philosophies about money... so just find the path that best fits you.

 

Your pal,

Yoda

[mantis]

it's not so much about david being legit its rather the claims he makes (or made) that get people asking questions. for example he said he was still on good terms with the mo pai but several actual mo pai students came on the forum and said this was wrong.

 

it's also not only $10,000, they offer treatments and pills that could add on thousands to the additional fee.

[amacgregor]

it's not so much about david being legit its rather the claims he makes (or made) that get people asking questions. for example he said he was still on good terms with the mo pai but several actual mo pai students came on the forum and said this was wrong.

 

it's also not only $10,000, they offer treatments and pills that could add on thousands to the additional fee.

 

I agree, something at least to me don't sound quite right, for example $6,500 is a bearable sum if included the ticket, the hotel, the food etc but its just the tuitution fee add plain tickets, food, hotel, etc and the sum is quite large the suppose that the foundation training takes some time to complete(1.5 to 3 years so far I understand) how many of this seminars you have to assist before completing the Foundation Training?

 

 

 

the ground and turned the whole earth to gold and said that he could make as much gold as he needed but that he was driving Marpa to the edge as a vehicle for his enlightenment.

 

Yoda interesting approach but I think is more to the symbolism for the student, for example there a lot of people who can easily pay that sum and don't event think about it, in other word there is no sacrifice for them ... no meaning if you will paying that kind of money.

 

For a penniless person, giving even $100dlls will have a lot more meaning and sacrifice that for the other person, it meant sacrifice, willingness, hard work and determination.

 

I can understand the concept behind the history you send, and I will agree with you if they really charged based on that, meaning that the cost is a kind of test for the wannabe students.

 

There is a saying on my country that goes something like this:

The size of the rock you throw depends on the size of the toad you are aiming for

 

Hope to have translated that correctly or at least close to the meaning.

 

Regards

[sheng zhen]

But its 5000$. Not 10k or 6500$. http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?showtopic=6000&hl= Plus travel expences.

 

Its still a lot. My gut feeling say its worth it, so Im saving up to next year.

[amacgregor]

But its 5000$. Not 10k or 6500$. http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?showtopic=6000&hl= Plus travel expences.

 

Its still a lot. My gut feeling say its worth it, so Im saving up to next year.

 

Good luck with your training I hope your gut feeling is accurate please let me know how the training go when you get back.

 

I personally don't agree with charging money for teaching, at least not in this way. If you ever heard of Jiddu Krishnamurti... that's my concept of enlighten master and a person that has achieved a highers stated of conscience no matter if I did taichi, meditation, qigong or any other path.

 

Regards

[sheng zhen]

Good luck with your training I hope your gut feeling is accurate please let me know how the training go when you get back.

 

I personally don't agree with charging money for teaching, at least not in this way. If you ever heard of Jiddu Krishnamurti... that's my concept of enlighten master and a person that has achieved a highers stated of conscience no matter if I did taichi, meditation, qigong or any other path.

 

Regards

Yes, but this is allways where the discussion gets hot.

 

People dont want to pay the money but demand to learn for free. If you dont want to pay Verdesi your money, go to someone who will teach you for free. Its easy. Nothing to make a fuzz about.

 

Krishnamurti is great! There are a lot of great masters out there that teach for free. So there shouldnt be any problem for those who dont have all that money.

[amacgregor]

Yes, but this is allways where the discussion gets hot.

 

People dont want to pay the money but demand to learn for free. If you dont want to pay Verdesi your money, go to someone who will teach you for free. Its easy. Nothing to make a fuzz about.

 

Krishnamurti is great! There are a lot of great masters out there that teach for free. So there shouldnt be any problem for those who dont have all that money.

 

Don't get me wrong Master also have to eat, and its okay if they charge money even higher amounts of money; where I enter in conflict is where they try to justify charging this amounts of money with the purpose of filtering or testing the student willingness and dedication to learn, there probably 100 way the Master can and have been testing their wannabe students.

 

Ok, I said that I don't fully agree to Master charging for teaching but I never said that demanding to learn is okay .... its actually quite the opposite, not everyone is ready to learn or start learning, and not everyone "deserves" yet to be taught.

 

I don't want to make a fuzz about the money issue or David Sheng, really I just wanted to start a interesting conversation and get an idea of how some of the members on these forum think, so I picked one controversial topic

 

So far it has been an enlightening experience, I really don't care much if David Sheng its real or not, if he is Coool if he is not Cool to ... I have always think that a teacher or Master can point the road, describe it for you, tell you hints and shortcuts but he cannot walk it for you. At the end its you who has to walk that road to decide where to turn, where and when to stop to rest and if you finish that road and how fast.

 

Great teachers don't guarantee great students and vice verse.

 

Regards

[sheng zhen]

I don't want to make a fuzz about the money issue or David Sheng, really I just wanted to start a interesting conversation and get an idea of how some of the members on these forum think, so I picked one controversial topic

You shure did

[amacgregor]

You shure did

 

I Know I know that was the purpose of the whole thread heheheh !!!

[Vajrasattva]

Save your money.

 

All Knowledge comes from the Creator. Learn to tap into the source and you can learn anything.

 

Peace

 

Santiago

[sheng zhen]

My first thought on this is to go with my gut feeling and try it out. I dont care if its a teacher who teach for free of for millions of dollars. If my gut feeling say GO, then I go. If it turns out to be wrong, then at least I gave it an hounest try.

 

My second thought on this is to respect the parameters set by the teacher. I am not the teacher, I am a student, so I have no idea WHY the teacher teach the way he does, thinks the way he does, or does whatever he does. I am not the one to tell the teacher what to do and how to do it either.

 

And if Im with a teacher I no longer trust, I walk away. Simple as that.

 

Save your money.

 

All Knowledge comes from the Creator. Learn to tap into the source and you can learn anything.

 

Peace

 

Santiago

You're such a romantic!

 

Show me you can learn Xing Shen Zhuang by tapping into the source. Show me you can learn the mathematics behind quantum physics by tapping into the source.

 

You cannot learn EVERYTHING just by tuning in. You can learn what you need in your own developement, yes, and THAT is valuble, but if you want to learn quantum physics or things like that you need a teacher.

Edited July 8, 2008 by sheng zhen

[mantis]

thousands of dollars is going to be one tough gut feeling

[Vajrasattva]

 

You're such a romantic!

 

Show me you can learn Xing Shen Zhuang by tapping into the source. Show me you can learn the mathematics behind quantum physics by tapping into the source.

 

You cannot learn EVERYTHING just by tuning in. You can learn what you need in your own developement, yes, and THAT is valuble, but if you want to learn quantum physics or things like that you need a teacher.

 

 

Really?

 

Who taught the masters?

 

Who taught the 1st Human Master?

 

Who is at the root of all teaching & knowledge?

 

If you know how you can learn anything you need.

[sheng zhen]

thousands of dollars is going to be one tough gut feeling

Compared to what? These things is very subjective

 

If you have an insecure gut feeling, then dont trust it. But if it is secure, then money or any other obstacle isnt an issue.

 

If you know how you can learn anything you need.

Yes, by studying at the university or with a teacher. I dont think you can sit under a tree and learn KAP, can you? If so, why do people come to you?

[amacgregor]

My first thought on this is to go with my gut feeling and try it out. I dont care if its a teacher who teach for free of for millions of dollars. If my gut feeling say GO, then I go. If it turns out to be wrong, then at least I gave it an hounest try.

 

My second thought on this is to respect the parameters set by the teacher. I am not the teacher, I am a student, so I have no idea WHY the teacher teach the way he does, thinks the way he does, or does whatever he does. I am not the one to tell the teacher what to do and how to do it either.

 

And if Im with a teacher I no longer trust, I walk away. Simple as that.

You're such a romantic!

 

Show me you can learn Xing Shen Zhuang by tapping into the source. Show me you can learn the mathematics behind quantum physics by tapping into the source.

 

You cannot learn EVERYTHING just by tuning in. You can learn what you need in your own developement, yes, and THAT is valuable, but if you want to learn quantum physics or things like that you need a teacher.

 

Gut feelings are good even if they are not always right : ) you can learn some really interesting things even more valuable from mistakes than from successes.

 

As for your second thought I agree to some point but I not the kind of person that follows anyone without asking why or doubting about the nature of their actions, especially when I have gut feelings about people I have learned to trust my inner judge and when something doesn't quite fit on my brain I simply don't fully trust on it and start researching.

 

Guess is the form that my brain works making conscious and subconscious connections about events and relevant information, looking for patterns and similar stuff.

 

Again its just me ... its my opinion I'm not telling David Sheng its wrong, Siffu X is laying ... or anything like that I'm just expression my opinion on a honest way and I want to get to know your opinion about the issue.

 

Regards

 

Really?

 

Who taught the masters?

 

Who taught the 1st Human Master?

 

Who is at the root of all teaching & knowledge?

 

If you know how you can learn anything you need.

 

 

Can you elaborate your response a little bit more ?? what do you mean with

If you know how you can learn anything you need.

 

Regards

[Vajrasattva]

Yes, by studying at the university or with a teacher. I dont think you can sit under a tree and learn KAP, can you? If so, why do people come to you?

 

When it comes to my practice and way of being I learned a lot of what i know from my teachers & also directly from the source. But see I know how to connect to my true Root Guru.

 

Yes in theory you are correct No one needs a master. It just takes longer with out guidance but you can still do it. Also if its meant for you to learn it you will regardless of what the subject matter is. The creator will manifest the information you need and the timing for it when you are ready for it. It may come through a teacher in the flesh, or non embodied teacher or from a dream, or it is just revealed to you in meditation.

 

If your gut says yes do it. Pay the 10,000 or what ever the cost is.

 

When you have learned your business come pay me a visit so we can play.

 

Peace

 

Santiago

[amacgregor]

When it comes to my practice and way of being I learned a lot of what i know from my teachers & also directly from the source. But see I know how to connect to my true Root Guru.

 

Yes in theory you are correct No one needs a master. It just takes longer with out guidance but you can still do it. Also if its meant for you to learn it you will regardless of what the subject matter is. The creator will manifest the information you need and the timing for it when you are ready for it. It may come through a teacher in the flesh, or non embodied teacher or from a dream, or it is just revealed to you in meditation.

 

If your gut says yes do it. Pay the 10,000 or what ever the cost is.

 

When you have learned your business come pay me a visit so we can play.

 

Peace

 

Santiago

 

hmmmmmmmm

[sheng zhen]

Yes in theory you are correct No one needs a master. It just takes longer with out guidance but you can still do it. Also if its meant for you to learn it you will regardless of what the subject matter is.

Im not the one with a theroy that no one needs a master. It was you who said that.

 

If your "root guru" tells you to spend 10000s of dollars on somethng, travel thousands of miles, and things like that, would you do it?

 

If your root guru tells you to spend years at the university or study with another teacher, would you do it?

 

Im shure you have a lot of respect for what other peoples root guru is telling them. Thats why I dont understand why you, and other people, make comments on the un-nessecity(sorry my bad english) of spending money on something... why is that?

 

Why is money worse than any other obstacle?