David Verdesi

[DentyDao]

Ok, why I say this ? I have always had the strong belief that real knowledge and enlightenment doesn't come to a material price, I can understand the courses and seminars costing $6500 -$7500 dlls or any similar amount if the knowledge and training imparted on the seminars is real then the money is worthed and the price is just small in comparison to what you are going to receive.

 

David is in a very unique position. While a few of his teachers happen to have well known names, David has been studying with well over 20 masters, some at levels that we cannot imagine- the majority of them virtually unknown, since he was 10 years old in Rome.

 

Before I go further, I would ask readers who don't believe in such things to ignor what I write. I have no intention of offending anyone's sense of reason and beliefs. I'm not interested in debating whether or not you have risen your kundalini or if you can see auras and are already enlightened. That's fine, I have no opinion or issue with those points that I would wish to express; and no interest in debating David's credentials or reputation; or questions about where he got his PhD or didn't get his PhD, etc...

 

The training and body of knowledge that David provides is not offered publicly or privately anywhere and is unique to David aside some limited external similarity in some of the basic practices. The price is there because that is what David feels his time is worth and he has a good number of dedicated and happy students. But, it is important to know that this is a very specialized training that is designed to do very specific things. Most people, if they knew what was involved, would probably choose a less involved practice. It's something that very few can or want to do and there are simpler ways to cultivate and have a meaningful spiritual life that require less sacrifice in all areas. It's a very serious business and commitment and most of the contextual basis that would make that clear and end the debates on the subject are off limits for open discussion. To discover if this is for you, would be a matter of destiny, not public debate or inquiry.

 

Wang Liping's public teaching is good solid training, but it is not the training he gives privately with David (same with Jiang). He is not permitted to teach that openly; yes I've studied with him and yes that's what he explained to me personaly. This type of public training is designed for the masses and will grant the diligent student a concious death and, the few meant for it, more.

 

As for Yang Shen Dao and Jin Dan Dao, to this date, Liping has trained only one student to a very high level and still that student is no where near his teacher. For this kind of training, you can have everything, time, money and teaching and still fail. There are students who have studied with Liping for many years who cannot reach the first level. And to receive this level of personal attention from Liping is not cheap by any standard, through David or otherwise; the government requires Wang to charge for his time.

 

The recent blog of Wang's student for example is just external teaching and descriptions of some of the basic sensations and feelings that happen in Wang's presence during public teachings. Yang Shen Dao and Jin Dan Dao are something else and you need the masters presence on a very consistent basis for many years, and even then you can easily fail. To argue that this training, Yang Shen Dao/Jin Dan Dao, is out there and available is pure ignorance. This type of training is comparable to undertaking a complex space mission to repair a satilite or something. Most of us potato chip eating, average guys, would not realistically make it. We will become proficient at some aspect of the training and get the health benifit and make spiritual progress in this lifetime according to our karma and our destiny; to go higher requires many things and these are often hard things to overcome.

 

How many good business men or women become billionaires? Only a few, there are lot's of wealthy people, some are millinaires, but only the top 1/100% become Bill Gates wealthy. Has to be a lot of destiny and karma in your corner. Wang Liping referes to his study as a young boy and, later as an adult, as torture that he would not wish on anyone. To train someone to his level in this life is not possible, and he has said openly that he has no intention of training someone in this way, with the possible exception one one or two and even they will only attain a fraction of his level and knowledge. Even to accomplish the basic goal that David holds for his students is a tremendous task, unmanagable for most working class lay people, that ideally requires a three year retreat or at least close supervision from the master and stretches of a year or more to train exclusively... plus the financial ability to secure the services of Liping.

 

But, it's like the old saying goes, "Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, You'll land among the stars."

 

The voices of criticism here are missing the point and the bigger picture. Compared to reaching the higher levels of proficiency in Yang shen or Jin Dan Dao, two closly related fields, what most people understand as enlightenment/awakening is a fairly easy task; still a great achievement, but not the same as someone like Liping. This is a dying way of life and something that is very rare and misunderstood, to the point of being tragically comical. I'm not saying that this teaching is better or worse or that one way is faster or more fun. It's just a different catagory that belongs to a particular line of Taoist practice that happens to be very specialized and uncommenly difficult and even boring perhaps in comparison to others practices within Taoism as a body of practices, schools and systems who's variety and shear number of different practices and groups is beyond any other spiritual tradition a hundred or even a thousand fold.

 

There are a good number and variety of perfectly solid practices openly available that will take you to self realization, enlightenment and beyond if that is your heart's desire; both within Taoist tradition and that of other world religions. They don't bear much relation to the training that David is giving, but are excellent in their own right. Some of the Tibetan teachers (some living) are very very high level. Same in India and parts of Europe. Some of these are as high as any master or higher in their respective practices.

 

People are Human; when they hear that David's training costs a lot of money they say all kinds of things and and start the usual critique and end with their top 7 keys to enlightenment. Maybe that's a good thing in the end. Perhaps what they are offering or suggesting would be better for most people and take them where they need to be as individuals. But just to give a picture I will highlight some of the reasons why what David is offering has a unique value...

 

There are perhaps 10-15 people that can do what Liping can do, he is the only one making himself openly available. This is one of the last great Yang Shen Dao/Jin Dan Dao masters on earth, and he considers himself a child next to his masters. Yes, one of the three masters is still alive and lives in the heart of a sacred mountain motionless most of the time; he is a master of uncomprehensable knowledge and enlightenment.

 

David has met higher masters than Liping and seen things that most of you would dismiss, even those of you who are open minded enough to accept that some of these ideas and stories might be real. David has many masters and several masters that are of extremely rare quality and ability that he is as close with as Jiang and Liping. With each he is a close and respected student, having the body of knowledge that they present at his disposal and the ability and permission to practice and teach it to a degree that many so called masters cannot; this despite the fact that he always remains humble and does not call himself a master because he knows what a master like Jiang or Liping are truly capable of.

 

David has unique access and knowledge and is highly qualified to transmit and teach that knowledge to westerners and the western mind, in this he is very unique (there are others who compare in part) and stands among the top of his field; regardless of other's opinions, ideas or hopes, as the case may be. David's teaching goes way beyond that of his teachers; not that they don't know what they teach, but to them it would be a waste of breath to spend the hours that David does presenting and explaining the complex theories behind the practices; knowledge and understanding that a master like Liping rarely gives and that can greatly improve your chances of progressing at a acceptable pace and level.

 

At the age of 17 or 18 David was often in remote areas of China studying with masters who have completely transended any reasonable standard of human lifespan and knowledge. Very few will ever meet and study with immortals of this caliber; some of the Jin Dan Dao masters David studied with are far beyond Liping. The knowledge and experiences David gained, make him a rare teacher whos ability and level of cultivation match his level of understanding and knowledge. If you want to study what David teaches, and again this would make you the exception, you would be very hard pressed to find a better, more qualified teacher that can even speak English let alone explain closed door teachings in a comprehesive way on Yang Shen and Jin Dan Dao practice.

 

This subject and who David is will likely remain controversial, but perhaps it is meant to be that way. Whether or not that is the case, it's for sure easy to disrespect what we don't really understand and haven't experienced based on like and dislikes and preconcieved notions. Not that we shouldn't go right ahead and say what we think, wrong or right.

 

The import thing to remember is that cultivation can be very simple and uncomplicated. Not everyone needs to explore the most complex and technically challenging Taoist practices to fullfill their destiny and find inner peace. Some of the the best practices that can take you to enlightenment in one lifetime are one simple technique; of course with proper guidence and grounding. And some of the most impressive teachers that can give many sensations and spiritual/energy experiences are are some times the one's who have no clue what they are doing and what affect the practices they teach are having on people (not directed at anyone here).

 

I for one really appreciate the work David does and feel that the way he conducts his personal business is done ethically, professionally at a fair price. Having said that, it seems clear that a person like David, who charges a high fee and tells stories of immortals and such, would and probably always will attract negative criticism ranging from smug undertones to outright dislike and anger. I guess that's just human nature. Nothing for it really.

 

Anyway, I feel a genuine respect for anyone who sincerely follows a spiritual path with the intention of becoming a wiser person and serving others in their own chosen way. I think the noblist thing anyone can do is seek to understand who they are and where they come from. I also think that any practice can potentially be a great practice. And, I think it's human nature in general to politely or not gossip, discredit and brag about things we have absolutly no clue about.

Edited July 11, 2015 by seandenty

[dao zhen]

 

Anyway, I feel a genuine respect for anyone who sincerely follows a spiritual path with the intention of becoming a wiser person and serving others in their own chosen way. I think the noblist thing anyone can do is seek to understand who they are and where they come from. I also think that any practice can potentially be a great practice. And, I think it's human nature in general to politely or not gossip, discredit and brag about things we have absolutly no clue about.

 

Well said........

 

Let us all respect each other as brothers and sisters and fellow cultivators.....

 

A friend of mine who is a well respected Taoist in China, and a friend and student of Teacher Wang Liping told me a beautiful quote I will list below.......

 

"Though many follow a different Tao and a different practice than I do, I smile, love and respect them all."

 

Respect them all.....

 

Lets have more respect for each other and whatever practice people wish to do......

 

Lets share ideas and methods of Tao and let our understanding grow deeper.....

 

Lets encourage each other to practice, instead of arguing about small things......

[mantis]

fantastic post sean d.

 

is it true they had wang liping tied up and sitting in full lotus for 4 hours?

Edited July 19, 2008 by mantis

[amacgregor]

I'm leaving The Tao Bums Forums most of you guys are interested on two things having fantasies of supernatural powers and you focus more on that and scamming money from the people that has the illusion of achieving supernatural powers.

 

Inner cultivation, Dan Tien cultivation ... everything is useless if you don't cultivate your hearth first, I haven't heard anyone speak about love and I mean the real universal love, the kind of love that Buddhist call compassion.

 

Is just disappointing to read all the topics and post on this forums and realizing that most people has lost the focus or never had it to begin with.

 

I don't want to offend anyone just speaking my mind.

 

Regards and good bye.

 

PD: and SeanDenty what purpose has all that training ? what its your goal? whats david goal? Superpowers? enlightenment ? inmortality?

Edited July 19, 2008 by amacgregor

[sheng zhen]

I'm leaving The Tao Bums Forums most of you guys are interested on two things having fantasies of supernatural powers and you focus more on that and scamming money from the people that has the illusion of achieving supernatural powers.

Maby if you spent a little more time loving and feeling compassion you would understand that there is no need to project it all the time. If your heart is full the need to talk about it or show off with it is completely gone.

 

So insted of projecting your own lack of love, spend a little time here and contribute your perspective to the taobums! It is needed

[voidisyinyang]

Mantis -- the 4 hour full-lotus training was when Wang, Liping was 9 years old if I remember correctly. It's the start of the book "Opening the Dragon Gate."

 

As for the secret training -- well there's probably not enough bulls in China to transfer all that life force into us Westerners. haha.

 

BTW -- just saw the movie "Up the Yangtze" -- excellent on how the common peasants and shopkeepers are getting beat up and flooded so that China can be big and strong with dams and Western tourists, etc.

 

Amazing movie.

[ramus]

I know David, I know that he has the power of the fourth level of nei kung, like in the system of JC.

I want to say that he is not a bad person but he has an obsession for immortality, power, money and sex.

So if you are searching a true path think what is really important in your life and with WHO you want to stay in your life.

In my opinion a right way is a way where you can be a very good person, kind and aware of the problems of the real life, not a person that search the power just for his EGO.

 

David is in contact whit real masters of chi, but this not so important because for me and for what I saw this is an incredible wrong and diabolic way.

[Biff]

I know David, I know that he has the power of the fourth level of nei kung, like in the system of JC.

I want to say that he is not a bad person but he has an obsession for immortality, power, money and sex.

So if you are searching a true path think what is really important in your life and with WHO you want to stay in your life.

In my opinion a right way is a way where you can be a very good person, kind and aware of the problems of the real life, not a person that search the power just for his EGO.

 

David is in contact whit real masters of chi, but this not so important because for me and for what I saw this is an incredible wrong and diabolic way.

 

Well what did you see?

[r.w.smith]

Oh lawdy not the David Verdesi vs Mopai issue again

 

Just when i thought things were starting to get dull around here lol

[genmaicha]

Whatever happened to David's 'spokesman' Sean Denty?

[Herodes]

this is an incredible wrong and diabolic way.

 

Please be more precise. Why do you consider the Lei Shan Dao diabolic?

[therion]

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[genmaicha]

Yes, I've seen this here:

http://www.beawake.net/Miao_Tong_Dao_-_Dav...eAwake.net.html

 

It seems that David is now about to jump onto the popular Satsang train with talks about love and non-duality.

Say it's for free but still insist that everybody donates the recommended 50 Euro ;D

 

And he still promotes himself with Wang Liping:

"David is a closed-door disciple of the famous Wang Liping Sifu, the Daoist master whose early life is portrayed in the acclaimed biographical novel Opening the Dragon Gate: The Making of a Modern Taoist Wizard. David lived with Wang Sifu for a time during his on-and-off study with this important master and underwent an intense period of private study with him over the course of several years from the mid nineties on. "

 

And that after the failed Denmark seminar and David's voiced disappointment with Wang Liping as a government controlled figure and not much achievement among his long time students.

Edited September 29, 2009 by genmaicha

[ramus]

Edited December 13, 2009 by ramus

[Lucky7Strikes]

wow.......it seems real!

agh!

mmmm,

Electricity in my hands from David, so I saw the truth of his power.

Then I have seen his behavior towards women, disciples and friends or presumed such.

The disrespect in their comparisons, the vulgar use of the money earned by the seminars squandered for absurd foolishness.

Indeed a behavior from Buddha!

Indeed it seems true, straight the resumptions and the photo have been taken care of for making him seem so kind and spiritual. Oh God, is almost about to cry, have perhaps been wrong completely my negative judgment on this individual!

but perhaps no.......

 

Neigong abilities seem more and more to have nothing to do with genuine wisdom.

[ramus]

Please be more precise. Why do you consider the Lei Shan Dao diabolic?

 

To say that it is very simple, if you are crossing a street that develops only your power but it doesn't improve your character, it doesn't open your heart, it doesn't make you a best person and a benefactor, already this should be an important signal to consider for judging it diabolic.

do we consider the teachers of the school of the lightning, do they seem you some intelligent people? the teacher of JC as before thing after having reached the level 30 to be able exterminates a rival group to his for revenge, loses completely the head!

the teacher of the teacher dies in a duel instead with one to his same level of power; the "bad" had reached that level to be able motivated by the revenge and by the hate, not from the love (for example)!!!

Besides this street seeks the immortality of the personal ego, the exact opposite of all that speak illuminates him, which hold the ego the greatest of the problems and its dissolution the source of every joy.

Is the ego the obstacle and here we want to make it immortal?!?!?!?!

Are we speaking of people practically they are held so important to want theirs to make eternal "fabulous" draws of personality, which unbelievable track of arrogance can sustain such a myopic project?!?!?!

[Lucky7Strikes]

To say that it is very simple, if you are crossing a street that develops only your power but it doesn't improve your character, it doesn't open your heart, it doesn't make you a best person and a benefactor, already this should be an important signal to consider for judging it diabolic.

do we consider the teachers of the school of the lightning, do they seem you some intelligent people? the teacher of JC as before thing after having reached the level 30 to be able exterminates a rival group to his for revenge, loses completely the head!

the teacher of the teacher dies in a duel instead with one to his same level of power; the "bad" had reached that level to be able motivated by the revenge and by the hate, not from the love (for example)!!!

Besides this street seeks the immortality of the personal ego, the exact opposite of all that speak illuminates him, which hold the ego the greatest of the problems and its dissolution the source of every joy.

Is the ego the obstacle and here we want to make it immortal?!?!?!?!

Are we speaking of people practically they are held so important to want theirs to make eternal "fabulous" draws of personality, which unbelievable track of arrogance can sustain such a myopic project?!?!?!

 

Ramus, I agree with you.

 

But your reply doesn't address Verdesi directly.

[Pietro]

To say that it is very simple, if you are crossing a street that develops only your power but it doesn't improve your character, it doesn't open your heart, it doesn't make you a best person and a benefactor, already this should be an important signal to consider for judging it diabolic.

do we consider the teachers of the school of the lightning, do they seem you some intelligent people? the teacher of JC as before thing after having reached the level 30 to be able exterminates a rival group to his for revenge, loses completely the head!

the teacher of the teacher dies in a duel instead with one to his same level of power; the "bad" had reached that level to be able motivated by the revenge and by the hate, not from the love (for example)!!!

Besides this street seeks the immortality of the personal ego, the exact opposite of all that speak illuminates him, which hold the ego the greatest of the problems and its dissolution the source of every joy.

Is the ego the obstacle and here we want to make it immortal?!?!?!?!

Are we speaking of people practically they are held so important to want theirs to make eternal "fabulous" draws of personality, which unbelievable track of arrogance can sustain such a myopic project?!?!?!

Hello ramus and welcome.

 

This might be an overshoot, but I wonder how does all this relates with the story of monkey king. If it relates at all.

 

One of the things I would add in the couldrum is that, according to Taoism as presented by Bruce Frantzis, the aim is not the dissolution of the ego. Where the ego is more seen as a tool that is needed for certains tasks (like living in the world). Of course between keeping the ego to its natural size, and pumping it, there is some difference.

 

One thing that we should remember about David is that he has the support of Rene Navarro. Now Rene Navarro is not only a great martial artists, but also a person of great integrity, humor and wisdom. So it might be that he sees all this as stages in David's developments.

[ramus]

Ramus, I agree with you.

 

But your reply doesn't address Verdesi directly.

 

I did................

[YMWong]

Neigong abilities seem more and more to have nothing to do with genuine wisdom.

 

Abilities are not necessarily linked to any wisdom of course, and so are powers

If so the likes of Hitler or Mao should have been enlightened beings

 

Some time ago the police managed to shoot down this criminal in Indonesia (Sulawesi)

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHVHHvT96HU...feature=related

 

who had been invulnerable to rounds and rounds of rifle pellets.

Only after many were shot somebody told the police the criminal was protected by a talisman (a ring given by a daoist). They then managed to shoot and break the ring and finally killed the man

 

YM

 

PS: by the way, most stories of 'powers' felt by witness are fake (thou sometimes those who post them really trust and believe what "they have felt" ...)

[Vajrasattva]

Abilities are not necessarily linked to any wisdom of course, and so are powers

If so the likes of Hitler or Mao should have been enlightened beings

 

Some time ago the police managed to shoot down this criminal in Indonesia (Sulawesi)

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHVHHvT96HU...feature=related

 

who had been invulnerable to rounds and rounds of rifle pellets.

Only after many were shot somebody told the police the criminal was protected by a talisman (a ring given by a daoist). They then managed to shoot and break the ring and finally killed the man

 

YM

 

PS: by the way, most stories of 'powers' felt by witness are fake (thou sometimes those who post them really trust and believe what "they have felt" ...)

 

 

How do you know it was given by a "Daoist"?

 

this stuff is "COMMON" its called Kebal and most Indonesian masters have such things.

 

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Meow means piss in South america..

[YMWong]

How do you know it was given by a "Daoist"?

 

So I was told, but of course I have no way to know for sure

 

YM

[VCraigP]

Meow means piss in South america..

 

But it means hello and feed me in cat.

 

 

Pietro

 

I think you created a really cool new word couldrum.

 

Is this a combination of conundrum and cauldron? You have added to the english language, and not even being an English native speaker. Well done.

 

It actually makes sense. It's a cauldron filled up with paradoxical conflicting and confusing ideas.

 

Craig

[Pietro]

But it means hello and feed me in cat.

Pietro

 

I think you created a really cool new word couldrum.

 

Is this a combination of conundrum and cauldron? You have added to the english language, and not even being an English native speaker. Well done.

 

It actually makes sense. It's a cauldron filled up with paradoxical conflicting and confusing ideas.

 

Craig

Thanks,

I'm flattergasted

[Creation]

Verdesi claims he had a change of heart about the thunder path due to the influence of his Korean Miao Tong Dao teacher, and now concerns himself with enlightenment rather than power. So, what do people who know him say? Rene N., Sean D.,. etc. People on the foundation forum, has there been any change there? Or is he still insulting Wang Liping and bragging about his sexual powers? Ramus, did your break occur with him before or after his "conversion"? Is there ANY shred of evidence that this MTD teacher exists or that any of the over the top stories told about him are true?

 

How can one tell if someone has truly changed? If they have actually and truly reached any level of enlightenment? That they can be trusted to have the student's best interest in mind? These are hard questions. I am eager to hear a report from anyone who attends his MTD seminars.

 

I have often thought that, as Pietro said, Verdesi is on the path and deserves the benefit of the doubt, whatever negative stuff you may hear about him. But that was when he was claiming (more or less) that he could take you through the Entering the Gate and Laying the Foundation stages. Now he is claiming to be able to give a transmission that gives enlightenment [EDIT: of course he doesn't claim to be able to enlighten someone instantly, but that his transmission is a very powerful boost]. If Verdesi wants to up the ante like this, then it would be proper for prospective students to up their standards too.

 

Incidentally, I give B.K. Frantzis the benifit of the doubt, because I consider his books to be a treasure trove of spiritual wisdom. But Frantzis has skeletons in his closed just like Verdesi does. Consider this: Frantzis says that from the time he was a teenager he was obsessed with martial arts: learning how to hurt other people. He traveled around China looking for the best masters to study with. He was constantly challenging other martial artists and caused many people serious injury. He also got involved big time with a Taoist sex cult. People who knew him during that period describe him as an egotistical ass-hole. Then, in his early thirties he met a Taoist master who had a lineage tracing back to Lao Tzu. With this teacher's help, and the impetus from a severe back injury, he eventually achieved a state of enlightenment (The great stillness, cutting the root of the mind, recognition of pure consciousness, there are many names).

 

That sounds freakishly similar to Verdesi's story. Just replace martial arts with thunder path, and no back injury. When Verdesi's prices irk me, I remind myself that if you calculate the per day rate, it is about the same as what Frantzis charges. (Which I think is too much, but I don't know what the expenses are and I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt). On the other hand, Frantzis does not market himself as someone who can give you a transmission that gives enlightenment [EDIT: See above caveat] (thought he does say he gives mind to mind transmissions in his seminars), and there are no stories of him disrespecting and slandering immortals .

 

Trust, faith, benefit of the doubt. Choosing a teacher, choosing how to spend a large chunk of money. Separating marketing, fad, and crazy stories from reality. These are highly non trivial issues. Kunlun and Verdesi are both glaring examples of this.

 

At the end of the day, I don't have to worry too much about it because even if I had the money to study with Verdesi, there are expensive programs higher on my list to attend than his (e.g. B.K. Frantzis' summer retreat, Hu Xuezhi's retreat on Mt. Wudang). But I remain very interested in Verdesi and what he teaches.

Edited September 30, 2009 by Creation