Other famous Taoist writings

[exorcist_1699]

Besides Chuang Tze and Lao Tze , I think the following three pieces of writings ,accompanied by the spread of Taoism across the world and China's rise to become, probably ,another Superpower , will be translated into English in the next 20 years if we are lucky enough to find some guys who are capable of doing this nearly impossible jobs:

 

- 悟真篇

- 伍柳仙踪

 

 

 

Because all of them have been well known for more than one hundred years , or one thousand years among the Chinese Taoists, their value are unquestionable .As Lao Tze already laid down the general principles of Tao ,the writings after it are more concerned about how to put it into practice, make them happen in real world and on human body .

 

Zen Buddhism ,originated in China, was introduced by the Japanese to the West after the 2nd World War; on the other hand, Kung-fu was spread by the Hong Kong movies from the 1970's to the world ; What is coming is the most difficult ,but crucial part of the Chinese culture : While Confucian is said to be the facade of it , Taoism is certainly its core deeply hides.

Edited September 21, 2008 by exorcist_1699

[Sunya]

Alan Watts

[YMWong]

Besides Chuang Tze and Lao Tze , I think the following three pieces of writings ,accompanied by the spread of Taoism across the world and China's rise to become, possibly ,another Superpower , will be translated into English in the next 20 years if we are lucky enough to find some guys who are capable of doing this nearly impossible jobs:

 

- 悟真篇

- 伍柳仙踪

- 樂育堂語錄

 

 

Because all of them have been well known for more than one hundred years , or one thousand years among the Chinese Taoists, their value are unquestionable.

 

While the first text 悟真篇 is about one thousand years old, being from late Song, the following two texts have been written much later than that.

伍柳仙踪 is a compendium of Ming (~1600) and Qing texts published in the late Qing.

樂育堂語錄 is also a Qing dynasty work.

 

Moreover, the 悟真篇 has been translated various times in english and as early as the late 30ies by Davis and Chao.

 

YM

[exorcist_1699]

 

 

Moreover, the 悟真篇 has been translated various times in english and as early as the late 30ies by Davis and Chao.

 

YM

 

 

YMWong , thank you for telling me this .

 

I only know that " 伍柳仙踪 " was once translated into Japanese and" 鍾呂傳道集" once into English;

 

By the way , it is strange that although the Japanese aways learn and manipulate the Chinese cultural elements well , for example in their absorbing Zen Buddhism , they seems never understand Taoism .

Edited July 11, 2008 by exorcist_1699

[YMWong]

[doc benway]

 

By the way , it is strange that although the Japanese aways learn and manipulate the Chinese cultural elements well , for example in their absorbing Zen Buddhism , they seems never understand Taoism .

I disagree. I think the Zen tradition did a marvelous job of distilling and simplifying the practical and functional elements of Daoist methods at the same time adapting it to the Japanese social and cultural context. Much like Chinese Buddhism did with Hinduism.

[exorcist_1699]

Although some people have doubts on " 鍾呂傳道集 " , asking whether it really is a dialogue between Masters Ru and Zhong , I think the writing is quite good , at least , it preaches nothing evil or trivial .

Edited September 21, 2008 by exorcist_1699

[exorcist_1699]

I disagree. I think the Zen tradition did a marvelous job of distilling and simplifying the practical and functional elements of Daoist methods at the same time adapting it to the Japanese social and cultural context. Much like Chinese Buddhism did with Hinduism.

 

 

The Japanese absorb Zen from China well ; they even absorb the TCM ( traditional Chinese Medicine ) very

well to an extent that some ideas from the Japanese TCM doctors are quoted by their Chinese counterparts.

Some Japanese TCM ( in fact, they call it Eastern Medicine) books are even published in China in recent years.

 

However, the level of their practice seems limits their grasp of Taoist ideas ..I am afraid . Maybe it is due to

no high, magnificent mountains and immense rivers on those islands...( no offense , the relation is real)

Edited July 11, 2008 by exorcist_1699

[Ben D]

A profound zen/Taoist piece that I recommend for anyone who has not read it is the Hsin Hsin Ming from Seng-ts'an.

 

Though the 'Hsin Hsin Ming' is from zen, it is clearly rooted in the Taoism.

 

Here is a translation by Richard B. Clarke.

 

Hsin Hsin Ming

[doc benway]

However, the level of their practice seems limits their grasp of Taoist ideas ..I am afraid . Maybe it is due to

no high, magnificent mountains and immense rivers on those islands...( no offense , the relation is real)

One of the primary functions of the human mind is to make comparisons and judgements.

It's very valuable in choosing places to sleep, safe foods to eat, which animals to pursue and which to flee, which job is more lucrative, who to mate with, and so forth. If you look carefully at thought you may find that it does relatively little beyond comparing and judging. It is why we are so "successful" as a species.

 

How meaningful is it to compare and judge different spiritual and religious traditions?

Aren't they just human ideas that try (yet must always fail) to capture that which can never be fully captured?

Perhaps one who has completely mastered both Daoism and Zen could make meaningful comparisons.

I doubt that anyone on this forum is truly qualified to make such judgements.

How many humans have mastered both Daoism and Zen? Or either?

 

Even then, of what value is it to make such comparisons?

Are Zen masters lesser beings than Daoist masters?

If so, is that an absolute truth or a relative one?

Why are Daoist ideas preferrable to Zen ideas?

Is this a relative or absolute?

I don't mean to be argumentative or disrespectful.

I just question the entire concept of best or better, particularly in spiritual matters.

 

I chose to follow Dao, you choose to follow Zen. When we move far enough along the path we realize that there is no separatation between us. The separation is the very illusion we are "each" trying to transcend. We are "I". So how can there be a meaningful difference between our myths?

[Taomeow]

I just question the entire concept of best or better, particularly in spiritual matters.

 

"Heaven is high, the Earth is low; according to this, superior and inferior places are established." That's the opening of Ta Chuan that starts out by tackling the whole matter of superiority-inferiority embedded in the I Ching. The I Ching addresses two types of people, "superior" and "inferior," with different pronouncements. "Superiority" and "inferiority" are described as courses of action people take, as forces of transformation they are exposed to that reveal and shape their superior or inferior nature and are, at the same time, shaped by it. E.g.: "A superior person changes like a tiger; an inferior person molts in the face." Or: "For the superior person, this is humiliating; for the inferior person, no blame." Or: "Dispersion is followed by accumulation; inferior people don't understand this." There's dozens of lines juxtaposing superior-inferior positions, and they do not offer judgments as to what's "better" or "worse," they just clearly state a different effect of the events of the world on their recipients and participants.

 

I believe intuitively we all know who "superior" and "inferior" people are, but we are used to turning away as quickly as possible from this knowledge -- especially if we glimpse it in the mirror. Both scenarios are very scary, actually, regardless of what you glimpse, greatness or pettiness, don't you think? That's why it's such a popular stance to deny the difference. A homogenous porridge of "it's all good and it's all one" is baby food though. A superior person "bites into dry old meat and bones, hits poison, hits yellow gold." An inferior one is fed the homogenized formula. Yummy... sweet, sugary, unoffensive... and false.

[doc benway]

I believe intuitively we all know who "superior" and "inferior" people are, but we are used to turning away as quickly as possible from this knowledge -- especially if we glimpse it in the mirror. Both scenarios are very scary, actually, regardless of what you glimpse, greatness or pettiness, don't you think? That's why it's such a popular stance to deny the difference. A homogenous porridge of "it's all good and it's all one" is baby food though. A superior person "bites into dry old meat and bones, hits poison, hits yellow gold." An inferior one is fed the homogenized formula. Yummy... sweet, sugary, unoffensive... and false.

Who is superior, an orphaned Sudanese refugee starving in Kakuma or the abbott of a Daoist monastery?

I think that cultural and social biases and judgements are so deeply ingrained in us that we can't help but make such distinctions and judgements all the time. There is no absolute superiority or inferiority just relative judgement. I don't think we hide from such judgements, we are immersed in them like a fish in the sea. I don't find it scary at all, sometimes sad maybe. It's all Maya. But it's fine, the comparison game is there to be played for as long as we choose to believe it.

[Taomeow]

Who is superior, an orphaned Sudanese refugee starving in Kakuma or the abbott of a Daoist monastery?

I think that cultural and social biases and judgements are so deeply ingrained in us that we can't help but make such distinctions and judgements all the time. There is no absolute superiority or inferiority just relative judgement. I don't think we hide from such judgements, we are immersed in them like a fish in the sea. I don't find it scary at all, sometimes sad maybe. It's all Maya. But it's fine, the comparison game is there to be played for as long as we choose to believe it.

Um... we're talking apples and oranges, Steve. My fault too -- some charged points shouldn't be made in passing... I was just hoping that the I Ching's authority might back up what I'm trying to express... guess not... well, never mind then.

 

An orphaned refugee or the abbot? You only say what they "are," but superior/inferior is not about what they "are," it's about what they "do" and how it makes them feel and how it makes others feel and what it causes others to "do." What do they do?.. How does it feel?.. Is all the orphan doing is feeling low, suffering? That's definitely not his fault and yet he finds himself in an "inferior" state -- or would you go as far as to not distinguish the state of suffering from the state of pleasure as "inferior" vs. "superior?" If they're all the same, it shouldn't, technically, matter which one to choose, right? Yet how come all people (except for some of the insane ones), all animals, all plants and even all unicellular organisms consistently seek pleasure and avoid pain? Isn't there something about one state being "superior" to the other? Isn't there something that makes life itself choose? Isn't it normal to be able to tell pain from pleasure... wait, there's Pink Floyd in my head all of a sudden... "heaven from hell... can you tell a green field from a cold steel rail, a smile from a veil, do you think you can tell?.."

 

Of course if one believes in Maya it renders any point anyone might make about anything quite moot. What a convenient prop, maya is. A back door outta any and all life-related issues. I don't use it though.

[exorcist_1699]

Another small yet valuable book is called "唱道真言 ", written in the Ching Dynasty about 150 years ago.

 

Although the prolog of each chapter of it looks strange due to full of weird taoist spells, the book boasts of no strange terms or sayings in order to catch people's eyes as we always find in many books nowadays ; most of what it preach are decent , in-depth taoist truths .

Edited July 12, 2008 by exorcist_1699

[wuweismith]

Thought is attachment.

 

I refer you to Li Bai and "Drinking Alone under the Moon".

[exorcist_1699]

 

How meaningful is it to compare and judge different spiritual and religious traditions?

Aren't they just human ideas that try (yet must always fail) to capture that which can never be fully captured?

Perhaps one who has completely mastered both Daoism and Zen could make meaningful comparisons.

I doubt that anyone on this forum is truly qualified to make such judgements.

How many humans have mastered both Daoism and Zen? Or either?

 

 

 

Although Zen is said to be influenced by Taoism , Zen , as a school of Buddhism , its methods and final goal, are different from Taoism, which we can't ignore.

 

Comparing Buddhism ( or Zen) with Taoism is not because I want to belittle Buddhism , rather by pointing out their differences , so as to clarify the characteristics of Taoist cultivation . In the Chinese Taoist circle, most people know that it is a very old topic repeatedly argued for more than one thousand years . I just repeat the traditional standpoint I know here , as follows , which ,definitely is not meaningless for it lets people know more about the significance of the Taoist jing-qi-shen framework .

 

For example , Taoism stresses both physical immortality and spiritual eternity because it does not think that our physical body is unreal ,some sort of illusion or any accidental combination of events, rather it thinks that our body is composed of jing and qi , which if well cultivated , can be transformed into a higher form : Shen ( a spiritual baby ) .So, trying to attain physical immortality is nothing wrong for such an achievement is an expression of our accomplishment at certain stage ,or is some sort of proof to verify our practice ...etc , provided that we do not stick to it ( in fact, we forget them , forget everything in practice ) and know that there is something higher awaiting us.

 

Whether people choose Buddhism or Taoism or others is up to them ,however , if raising an old argument is beneficial to others , making people think deeper , why not doing it ?

Edited September 11, 2008 by exorcist_1699

[doc benway]

Um... we're talking apples and oranges, Steve. My fault too -- some charged points shouldn't be made in passing... I was just hoping that the I Ching's authority might back up what I'm trying to express... guess not... well, never mind then.

I don't accept Yi Jing as an authority any more than any other book - no disrespect intended.

 

An orphaned refugee or the abbot? You only say what they "are," but superior/inferior is not about what they "are," it's about what they "do"

I was simply replying to this -

"I believe intuitively we all know who "superior" and "inferior" people are..."

I agree that what we are talking about is behavior and yet, the terms superior and inferior are simply an individual, social, or cultural judgement.

 

...or would you go as far as to not distinguish the state of suffering from the state of pleasure as "inferior" vs. "superior?"

Exactly my point. Preferable perhaps but not superior. For example, let's say I have a terrible pain in my abdomen - is this superior or inferior to a crown shakra orgasm?

 

Now let's dig deeper and find that I have acute appendicitis and the pain allowed me to have an emergency appendectomy which prevented me from dying the very unpleasant death from acute peritonitis. Is the pain still inferior?

 

If they're all the same, it shouldn't, technically, matter which one to choose, right? Yet how come all people (except for some of the insane ones), all animals, all plants and even all unicellular organisms consistently seek pleasure and avoid pain? Isn't there something about one state being "superior" to the other? Isn't there something that makes life itself choose? Isn't it normal to be able to tell pain from pleasure... wait, there's Pink Floyd in my head all of a sudden... "heaven from hell... can you tell a green field from a cold steel rail, a smile from a veil, do you think you can tell?.."

They are not the same, they are not homogonous, they are varied and fascinating and wonderful and horrible. Yet, what do we mean by superior and inferior?

Pleasure and pain are physiological responses of organisms that assist in the survival mechanism, nothing more. Humans intellectualize the process which leads to sufferring and indulgence, that's all. Our instinct for survival combined with our tendency to compare makes us call life superior and death inferior. But are they? Do they exist independent of one another such that comparison is really meaningful?

 

Sure pleasure is preferrable to pain, that's how we've been designed to react. But what does superior mean? Aren't superior and inferior opposite sides of the same coin called comparison? Isn't that what Taiji (not Taijiquan) teaches us?

THere is no superior without inferior. They arise mutually, they are one, they are simply judgement and comparison. THere's nothing inherently wrong with that but distinction is illusion.

PS I love Wish You Were Here! Possibly my favorite Pink FLoyd album. I think those lyrics are tongue in cheek and challenging our illusion of distinction - "do you think you can tell?"

 

Of course if one believes in Maya it renders any point anyone might make about anything quite moot. What a convenient prop, maya is. A back door outta any and all life-related issues. I don't use it though.

Quite the contrary - understanding the inherent folly of the game allows one to indulge in it fully, without undue fear of consequences, without the attachment to the outcome. Immersing in the experience is what there is, and yet, in the end - what difference does it make? Life is now, death is later, and the cycle repeats. Belief in the concept of maya does not necessarily imply detatchment or irresponsibility. It's simply a perspective that allows for acceptance - an attitude consistent with wu wei. What is wu wei if not acceptance? Once acceptance is there, I find there is more freedom to choose my actions based on values rather than conditioning. In this way, I can lead the life I choose to lead - a "superior" life, you might call it. ALthough I continue to challenge the concept of absolute superiority.

 

I enjoy debating with you Taomeow - it challenges me and expands my horizons.

 

Although Zen is said to be influenced by Taoism , Zen , as a school of Buddhism , its methods and final goal, are different from Taoism, which we can't ignore.

Are you able to define the final goals of Daoism, Zen, and Buddhism?

Would your definitions apply to all Daoists and Buddhists?

This exercise could be instructive.

[chuangzu]

By the way , it is strange that although the Japanese always learn and manipulate the Chinese cultural elements well , for example in their absorbing Zen Buddhism , they seems never understand Taoism .

 

I would have to disagree that the Japanese have no understanding of Taoism, although I too at first though this when I began studying Zen Buddhism.

 

If you want to find the Japanese Taoism you have to look at Shinto, which comes from the Chinese 'Shen' and 'Tao', which roughly translated means 'the spirit of the way'. Because it is classified as a 'folk' religion you may not find any weighty or erudite academic essays about the subject but even such simple cultural references like the nature spirits in Hayao Miyazaki's 'My Neighbour Totoro' or the Kodamas in 'Princess Mononoke' show some very similar ideas to Chinese shamanism and cultural beliefs in my humble opinion. And after all do not the majority of modern Japanese not originate at some point in the distant past from the Chinese mainland?

Edited September 7, 2008 by chuangzu

[Qui-Dao]

I would have to disagree that the Japanese have no understanding of Taoism, although I too at first though this when I began studying Zen Buddhism.

 

If you want to find the Japanese Taoism you have to look at Shinto, which comes from the Chinese 'Shen' and 'Tao', which roughly translated means 'the spirit of the way'. Because it is classified as a 'folk' religion you may not find any weighty or erudite academic essays about the subject but even such simple cultural references like the nature spirits in Hayao Miyazaki's 'My Neighbour Totoro' or the Kodamas in 'Princess Mononoke' show some very similar ideas to Chinese shamanism and cultural beliefs in my humble opinion. And after all do not the majority of modern Japanese not originate at some point in the distant past from the Chinese mainland?

 

Don't forget that Japanese accepted and adapted Chinese language, with it Chinese culture, value system, customs, and "technologies", at the time when China was way ahead in civilization and human development (including, of course, language), by thousands of years. Once they adapted the language, they have no choice by to be "domesticated", but some how their own spirit awaken and with the help of the introduction of western thoughts, Japan transformed. Japan is a fascinating case of human and culture evolution in a time span of about one thousand years, not a very long time human history, but long enough and recent enough to deserve our serious contemplations.

[exorcist_1699]

Although the Japanese are good at making delicate ,technical things, it seems , before the Meiji Reform , they never produced any great thinker or writings in religion or philosophy . It is nothing to do with the size of the country, Holland is never big , but it had Spinoza. Geographical location and other cultural factors can't be ignored. You can't expect Sri Lanka or Thailand, although having introduced Buddhism for over one thousand years , gives rise to a school like Zen Buddhism .

 

Cultural heritage definitely limits people's level of achievement in cultivation . Without Great writing and master beside you , your accomplishment is anyhow limited .

Edited September 8, 2008 by exorcist_1699

[Qui-Dao]

Although the Japanese are good at making delicate ,technical things, it seems , before the Meiji Reform , they never produced any great thinker or writings in religion or philosophy . It is nothing to do with the size of the country, Holland is never big , but it had Spinoza. Geographical location and other cultural factors can't be ignored. You can't expect Sri Lanka or Thailand, although having introduced Buddhism for over one thousand years , gives rise to a school like Zen Buddhism .

 

Cultural heritage definitely limits people's level of achievement in cultivation . Without Great writing and master beside you , your accomplishment is anyhow limited .

 

Japan doesn't like to reinvent the wheels, doesn't like to create things from scratch, it's strength lies in it's ability to adapt, to take what others invented and improve upon them. make them better. Chinese has an old saying: Indigo comes from blue but is superior than blue.

 

I think Japanese truly understand that old saying.

[exorcist_1699]

Chinese has an old saying: Indigo comes from blue but is superior than blue.

 

I think Japanese truly understand that old saying.

 

Such assertion seems too early and superficial .

 

Japan could just throw away its old cultural legacy , and adopted the Western one in one stroke easily , China can never do in the same way ; Chinese has her own Taoist cum Buddhist cum Confucian heritage of looking at the society and universe. Facing the new times and things, all have to re-adjusted and re-thought in such a framework , it therefore means a longer and more painful process...

 

For example , in TCM , the drop of the traditional principles, but leaving only the Chinese herbs and those dose's combinations ( 柴胡湯, 小青龍湯...) is just a disaster to Japanese TCM's tradition, making her re-thinking of the medical heritage and re-shaping of her medical system difficult .

Edited September 8, 2008 by exorcist_1699

[Qui-Dao]

Such assertion seems too early and superficial .

 

Sorry for not making my statement clear: I don't mean that Japan or Japanese culture is superior than China/Chinese culture, but rather that Japan knows how to take other's inventions, improve upon them, and make them even better than their original form, that's all. Whether we like it or not, it is what it is, Japanese make better quality and more efficient cars for many years before American car manufacturers finally woke up to the reality, admitted it, accepted it, and do something about it, and the similar examples are too numerous to recount them here.

[chuangzu]

Besides Chuang Tze and Lao Tze , I think the following three pieces of writings ,accompanied by the spread of Taoism across the world and China's rise to become, probably ,another Superpower , will be translated into English in the next 20 years if we are lucky enough to find some guys who are capable of doing this nearly impossible jobs:

 

- 悟真篇

- 伍柳仙踪

- 樂育堂語錄

 

 

Because all of them have been well known for more than one hundred years , or one thousand years among the Chinese Taoists, their value are unquestionable .As Lao Tze already laid down the general principles of Tao ,the writings after it are more concerned about how to put it into practice, make them happen in real world and on human body .

 

Exorcist_1699 what are the names of these books and their authors in English please?

[exorcist_1699]

Edited September 21, 2008 by exorcist_1699