Li Jiong- TaoMeow-- help with I Ching theory?

[findley]

Hi Guys =) If you read this, thank you very much!

 

I have been pursuing a bit of study into the I Ching, and I noticed that you two seem to be very knowledgeable in this area.

 

First, Li Jiong, how can I pursuade you to explain the significance of the modified 'tai-'chi' symbol you have used in your avatar? What does it mean?

 

Second, can either of you explain to me how the theory of the 5 elements correlates with the I Ching, he tu/lou shu? I do not see any correlation, and thus far do not believe that the two principles (of the gua, and of the wu xing,) correlate. I read in 'the numerology of the i ching' (by 'taoist master' alfred huang,) that the theory fo the 5 elements and of the i ching developed seperately, from two distinct cultures across china. 'taoist master' alfred huang also explained that it was the taoist 'number and symbol' school that tried to correlate the two systems.. (and thus, not fuxi.)

From what I saw from the number and symbol school, they failed (to me,) to convincingly merge the two systems.

Why can't I make sense of wuxing theory from gua theory?

 

I don't mean to offend or attack anyone.. But I am in pursuit of truth, and so I must remain skeptical until I find convinving evidence. thus far, I do not believe that fuxi came up with the theory of the 5 elements, and am do not fully believe that the modified tai-chi symbol is genuine.

 

I do not mean to call you a liar, li jiong! you have my greatest respect! please help me to learn!

[wudangspirit]

Hope I don't intrude on the conversation...

 

From my studies and experience the two will go hand in hand when it comes to applications. The I Ching by iteself possesses a multitude of functions and usages. The Bagua or Eight Trigrams explains the correlations of the hexagrams and numerology.

 

If you take a deeper look at these numbers, they are used in many of the tradtional methods of feng shui, inner alchemy, astrology and more. According to Taoist practice, these are the numbers of heaven. They can be used to explain a lot. When used in feng shui they are combined with the Wuxing theory.

 

The I Ching masters also possess a certain amount of pre-heaven intuition. There are some things that cannot be explained.

 

At Wudang, where my lineage is from, those studying the I Ching also study Wuxing and all other aspects of numerolgy and taoist astrology.

 

Tao Bless,

 

Wudangspirit

 

Hi Guys =) If you read this, thank you very much!

 

I have been pursuing a bit of study into the I Ching, and I noticed that you two seem to be very knowledgeable in this area.

 

First, Li Jiong, how can I pursuade you to explain the significance of the modified 'tai-'chi' symbol you have used in your avatar? What does it mean?

 

Second, can either of you explain to me how the theory of the 5 elements correlates with the I Ching, he tu/lou shu? I do not see any correlation, and thus far do not believe that the two principles (of the gua, and of the wu xing,) correlate. I read in 'the numerology of the i ching' (by 'taoist master' alfred huang,) that the theory fo the 5 elements and of the i ching developed seperately, from two distinct cultures across china. 'taoist master' alfred huang also explained that it was the taoist 'number and symbol' school that tried to correlate the two systems.. (and thus, not fuxi.)

From what I saw from the number and symbol school, they failed (to me,) to convincingly merge the two systems.

Why can't I make sense of wuxing theory from gua theory?

 

I don't mean to offend or attack anyone.. But I am in pursuit of truth, and so I must remain skeptical until I find convinving evidence. thus far, I do not believe that fuxi came up with the theory of the 5 elements, and am do not fully believe that the modified tai-chi symbol is genuine.

 

I do not mean to call you a liar, li jiong! you have my greatest respect! please help me to learn!

[Patrick Brown]

[findley]

Please, wudangspirit, can you be more specific? Your answer is hardly sufficient for me to accept wuxing theory as genuine. Because in the art of fengshui, gua theory is combined with wuxing theory, does not give me a legitimate basis to accept wuxing theory.

 

I just browsed the second volume of 'science and civilization in china', and it reaffirmed that wuxing and gua theory are complete seperate and distinct.

 

 

PS... to elaborate on the (apparant?) folly of combining wu xing theory with gua theory... 'they' match 4 elements with the 4 bigrams, (lesser/greater yin/yang) and then say that 'earth' is 'balanced' yin'yang. balanced yin-yang is tai-chi!) -do you see how I have begun to find the theory of the 5 elements to be ridiculous?

 

....and after so long as a practicing taoist! I once aspired to be a TCM practitioner, only to discover that the wuxing is probably fantasy! (though, that probably also explains why I never felt any kind of success with 'fusion of the 5 elements' meditation...)

 

or am I wrong? please help me to understand, if I am wrong! I think I would probably prefer to be wrong

[Taomeow]

Hi Guys =) If you read this, thank you very much!

 

I have been pursuing a bit of study into the I Ching, and I noticed that you two seem to be very knowledgeable in this area.

 

First, Li Jiong, how can I pursuade you to explain the significance of the modified 'tai-'chi' symbol you have used in your avatar? What does it mean?

 

Second, can either of you explain to me how the theory of the 5 elements correlates with the I Ching, he tu/lou shu? I do not see any correlation, and thus far do not believe that the two principles (of the gua, and of the wu xing,) correlate. I read in 'the numerology of the i ching' (by 'taoist master' alfred huang,) that the theory fo the 5 elements and of the i ching developed seperately, from two distinct cultures across china. 'taoist master' alfred huang also explained that it was the taoist 'number and symbol' school that tried to correlate the two systems.. (and thus, not fuxi.)

From what I saw from the number and symbol school, they failed (to me,) to convincingly merge the two systems.

Why can't I make sense of wuxing theory from gua theory?

 

I don't mean to offend or attack anyone.. But I am in pursuit of truth, and so I must remain skeptical until I find convinving evidence. thus far, I do not believe that fuxi came up with the theory of the 5 elements, and am do not fully believe that the modified tai-chi symbol is genuine.

 

I do not mean to call you a liar, li jiong! you have my greatest respect! please help me to learn!

 

Hi Findley,

 

thanks for trusting my humble opinion! As synchronicity (ganying) would have it, I have just responded to this very question at another forum a couple of days ago. (The link is in my sig.) It was brief vis a vis the magnitude of the subject, but let me copy/paste, tell me if this begins to answer your question:

 

A million dollar question!

 

You need to look at Hetu and Luoshu for the answer. The Earlier Heaven and Later Heaven sequence of trigrams are derived from them. In the Earlier Heaven sequence, they are perfectly balanced -- and so nothing moves! This is your wuji -- the world of the unmanifest. Only people who don't bother with taoist basics mistake it for 'emptiness,' 'nothingness,' 'void' and so on. Uh-uh, it ain't! It's everything -- but everything so counterweighed by everything else to a balanced perfection that stillness is the natural outcome. Perfect balance, tao-in-stillness, has no manifestations, for the flow the balance has to be upset somehow. And that's what happens with the first creative, generative, manifestation-bound impulse, which they somehow know first arises from the third trigram (how exactly, I haven't seen in taoist literature, but in books on chaos and fractals and power laws, and in my own meditations, I did see it. If I get to that article sometime, remind me to try illustrating the "how" of it -- don't know if I will succeed, but I will try.)

 

So, OK, when the balance is upset -- look at the Later Heaven diagram -- the trigrams have shifted from their proprietary places and the race "back to balance" begins -- this will generate cyclic motion, the way of tao is motion and the pattern of this motion is return. The force that arises with this motion, qi, is now like this -- expanding, now like that -- ascending, it has become colorful, it has direction, fortitude, and a tendency to transform as it manifests into a qi of a different, next, nature and quality, also known as "phase" and also stubbornly translated as "element." So these phases of its motion -- that's the Wuxing. You get your dance of patterns between the eight trigrams (also forces, really, directions, tendencies, drives toward "original places") and the Five Phases, and of course yin-yang is the choreographer of the dance, it's the yang impulse of 3 that starts it all...

[mYTHmAKER]

Hi Findley,

 

thanks for trusting my humble opinion! As synchronicity (ganying) would have it, I have just responded to this very question at another forum a couple of days ago. (The link is in my sig.) It was brief vis a vis the magnitude of the subject, but let me copy/paste, tell me if this begins to answer your question:

 

A million dollar question!

 

You need to look at Hetu and Luoshu for the answer. The Earlier Heaven and Later Heaven sequence of trigrams are derived from them. In the Earlier Heaven sequence, they are perfectly balanced -- and so nothing moves! This is your wuji -- the world of the unmanifest. Only people who don't bother with taoist basics mistake it for 'emptiness,' 'nothingness,' 'void' and so on. Uh-uh, it ain't! It's everything -- but everything so counterweighed by everything else to a balanced perfection that stillness is the natural outcome. Perfect balance, tao-in-stillness, has no manifestations, for the flow the balance has to be upset somehow. And that's what happens with the first creative, generative, manifestation-bound impulse, which they somehow know first arises from the third trigram (how exactly, I haven't seen in taoist literature, but in books on chaos and fractals and power laws, and in my own meditations, I did see it. If I get to that article sometime, remind me to try illustrating the "how" of it -- don't know if I will succeed, but I will try.)

 

So, OK, when the balance is upset -- look at the Later Heaven diagram -- the trigrams have shifted from their proprietary places and the race "back to balance" begins -- this will generate cyclic motion, the way of tao is motion and the pattern of this motion is return. The force that arises with this motion, qi, is now like this -- expanding, now like that -- ascending, it has become colorful, it has direction, fortitude, and a tendency to transform as it manifests into a qi of a different, next, nature and quality, also known as "phase" and also stubbornly translated as "element." So these phases of its motion -- that's the Wuxing. You get your dance of patterns between the eight trigrams (also forces, really, directions, tendencies, drives toward "original places") and the Five Phases, and of course yin-yang is the choreographer of the dance, it's the yang impulse of 3 that starts it all...

 

 

Great post - very clear - thanks

[findley]

I will try and make crystal clear sense of this when I go home this evening and look at my books

 

but let me say a few things: as I udnerstand it, 'earlier heaven' or xiantian sequence was created by shao yong, who only attributed the xiantian sequence to fuxi's credit. (a common phenonema amongst chinese sholars, I guess..)

but I can imagine it now.. and yes, I xiantian is perfectly balanced, and I can udnerstand how it can be considered wu-chi. I will, however, have to take a close look at how the xiantian sequence arises out of the (he tu or lou shu? I'll find out...)

 

that manifestation begins with the third trigram is interesting, per the Tao te ching: 'one beget two, two beget three, three beget the 10,000 things'................. wu-chi -> Tai-chi.. wu-ji + Tai-Chi -> uh errr..... uhm.... if wu-ji is '1', tai chi '2'.... mmmmmm from wu-ji + tai-chi the 10,000 things manifest, that makes sense. nevermind about the 3rd trigram....

 

 

so somehow the 3rd trigram strikes imbalance into early heaven sequence, begining 'gua chaos'? I wonder how that is determined.. it is very important...

 

hmmm... it makes sense... yes.... I think I have it =) I think I understand! are you sure you can't explain it in different ways just to induce greater understanding? (if not, thats ok!) thank you so much!!

[wudangspirit]

As a practicing Taoist, you should respect the five elements as it is a practice of the Taoist culture. In the I Ching practice, yes they are different and separate. I was giving you a practical application in how they are really used. If you are just going by theories then you are correct they are separate. However there comes a time when you have to apply those theories.

 

As for TCM, you should look into that further because your diagnostic skills would be less than zero without the five element theory.

 

I Taoism the Wuxing theory explains how elements are created or restricted. I hardly can believe that you'd disregard this knowledge as false or non-existent. Maybe you could give me more detail of why you think this way.

 

In I Ching yes, there are 8 gua with 64 hexagrams and you can interpret the Earlier Heaven or the Later Heaven theories. However, to use them correctly is to use both because of their reasonings and situations. There is more to I Ching than theory and illustrations. You have to tap into the something beyond what's in front of your nose in order to see the true meanings. However, this can be done only after you have extinguished your ego and learned to theories inside and out.

 

Tao Bless

 

[wudangspirit]

Don't forget about Liangyi in the direct translation and diagram....

 

Wuji - Taiji - Liangyi - Bagua

 

 

 

I will try and make crystal clear sense of this when I go home this evening and look at my books

 

but let me say a few things: as I udnerstand it, 'earlier heaven' or xiantian sequence was created by shao yong, who only attributed the xiantian sequence to fuxi's credit. (a common phenonema amongst chinese sholars, I guess..)

but I can imagine it now.. and yes, I xiantian is perfectly balanced, and I can udnerstand how it can be considered wu-chi. I will, however, have to take a close look at how the xiantian sequence arises out of the (he tu or lou shu? I'll find out...)

 

that manifestation begins with the third trigram is interesting, per the Tao te ching: 'one beget two, two beget three, three beget the 10,000 things'................. wu-chi -> Tai-chi.. wu-ji + Tai-Chi -> uh errr..... uhm.... if wu-ji is '1', tai chi '2'.... mmmmmm from wu-ji + tai-chi the 10,000 things manifest, that makes sense. nevermind about the 3rd trigram....

so somehow the 3rd trigram strikes imbalance into early heaven sequence, begining 'gua chaos'? I wonder how that is determined.. it is very important...

 

hmmm... it makes sense... yes.... I think I have it =) I think I understand! are you sure you can't explain it in different ways just to induce greater understanding? (if not, thats ok!) thank you so much!!

[findley]

Yes, of course I can explain how I have ascertained some doubt concerning wuxing theory...

 

fuxi devised the bagua from he tu (/luo shu?) Some sinologist experts claim that yin/yang theory was a product of the 'warring states' period, almost 1000 years after fuxi. Again, wuxing theory was developed seperately in eastern china, completely independent of I ching theory.

 

Many sinologists claim that the original form of the i ching, (the yijing?) was merely a compilation of omens, communicated in ancient chinese characters with very literal meanings.

 

If the above is true-- fuxi did not incorporate yin/yang into the original yijing. Again, if this is true... fuxi did not even devise the trigrams! (?!)

 

.. I am just so confused with all the conflicting accounts on the history of the i ching... some say that the '64 hexagrams are almost certainly of earlier origin than the trigrams'... (?!) The way they associate the 5 elements with the i ching seems faulty (earth cannot be balanced yin-yang, because that is tai-chi!)... a respectable taoist 'alfred huang' tells us that the taoist symbol and number school had to combine wuxing theory with the i ching, and because of the way they placed earth, it is obviously faulty to me.

 

I am still trying to really internalize taomeow's explanation. If he is correct about how the movement of the gua produce different qualities of qi... this is amazing to me because I have looked for a while and this will have been the first explanation I have found that seems satisfactory! I will have to think on this, and try and poke holes in it!

 

(PS, can you point me to any english literature explaining this in further detail..?)

[wudangspirit]

Taomeow explanation is correct according to the oral traditions of Taoism for sure. I'll help you look into any documented forms. This topic is very fascinating. At Wudang there are a couple of very traditional I Ching Masters still on the mountain. I'll ask my lineage uncle, Zhong Yun Long, to see if this can be explained. My Master Yun Xiang Tseng, may also know of it.

 

Tao Bless

 

Yes, of course I can explain how I have ascertained some doubt concerning wuxing theory...

 

fuxi devised the bagua from he tu (/luo shu?) Some sinologist experts claim that yin/yang theory was a product of the 'warring states' period, almost 1000 years after fuxi. Again, wuxing theory was developed seperately in eastern china, completely independent of I ching theory.

 

Many sinologists claim that the original form of the i ching, (the yijing?) was merely a compilation of omens, communicated in ancient chinese characters with very literal meanings.

 

If the above is true-- fuxi did not incorporate yin/yang into the original yijing. Again, if this is true... fuxi did not even devise the trigrams! (?!)

 

.. I am just so confused with all the conflicting accounts on the history of the i ching... some say that the '64 hexagrams are almost certainly of earlier origin than the trigrams'... (?!) The way they associate the 5 elements with the i ching seems faulty (earth cannot be balanced yin-yang, because that is tai-chi!)... a respectable taoist 'alfred huang' tells us that the taoist symbol and number school had to combine wuxing theory with the i ching, and because of the way they placed earth, it is obviously faulty to me.

 

I am still trying to really internalize taomeow's explanation. If he is correct about how the movement of the gua produce different qualities of qi... this is amazing to me because I have looked for a while and this will have been the first explanation I have found that seems satisfactory! I will have to think on this, and try and poke holes in it!

 

(PS, can you point me to any english literature explaining this in further detail..?)

[findley]

oh wow... thank you!

[zerostao]

Hi Findley,

 

thanks for trusting my humble opinion! As synchronicity (ganying) would have it, I have just responded to this very question at another forum a couple of days ago. (The link is in my sig.) It was brief vis a vis the magnitude of the subject, but let me copy/paste, tell me if this begins to answer your question:

 

A million dollar question!

 

You need to look at Hetu and Luoshu for the answer. The Earlier Heaven and Later Heaven sequence of trigrams are derived from them. In the Earlier Heaven sequence, they are perfectly balanced -- and so nothing moves! This is your wuji -- the world of the unmanifest. Only people who don't bother with taoist basics mistake it for 'emptiness,' 'nothingness,' 'void' and so on. Uh-uh, it ain't! It's everything -- but everything so counterweighed by everything else to a balanced perfection that stillness is the natural outcome. Perfect balance, tao-in-stillness, has no manifestations, for the flow the balance has to be upset somehow. And that's what happens with the first creative, generative, manifestation-bound impulse, which they somehow know first arises from the third trigram (how exactly, I haven't seen in taoist literature, but in books on chaos and fractals and power laws, and in my own meditations, I did see it. If I get to that article sometime, remind me to try illustrating the "how" of it -- don't know if I will succeed, but I will try.)

 

So, OK, when the balance is upset -- look at the Later Heaven diagram -- the trigrams have shifted from their proprietary places and the race "back to balance" begins -- this will generate cyclic motion, the way of tao is motion and the pattern of this motion is return. The force that arises with this motion, qi, is now like this -- expanding, now like that -- ascending, it has become colorful, it has direction, fortitude, and a tendency to transform as it manifests into a qi of a different, next, nature and quality, also known as "phase" and also stubbornly translated as "element." So these phases of its motion -- that's the Wuxing. You get your dance of patterns between the eight trigrams (also forces, really, directions, tendencies, drives toward "original places") and the Five Phases, and of course yin-yang is the choreographer of the dance, it's the yang impulse of 3 that starts it all...

TaoMeow: please forgive me if this has already been covered. but it has been on my mind lately. if or when the balance again becomes upset(2012?) the trigrams will have to be shifted again, am i right?

[Taomeow]

TaoMeow: please forgive me if this has already been covered. but it has been on my mind lately. if or when the balance again becomes upset(2012?) the trigrams will have to be shifted again, am i right?

 

Thank you for digging up and noticing this thread!

 

The answer is no, you and I and everybody else are in the balance-upset world of manifestations (Later Heaven) right now. And simultaneously we are in the forever-balanced world of the unmanifest (Earlier Heaven) at all times. The manifest and the unmanifest exist simultaneously at all times. They are not a sequence in any linear-time way of our everyday cognitive habit (which does not reflect the actual nature of time at all); they are two sides of the same tao coin -- everything tao does (tao-in-motion) and everything tao doesn't do (tao-in-stillness). Anything tao doesn't do can become something tao does -- Earlier Heaven is the dimension of potentials, and these are unlimited. (I can spill my cup of coffee right now, lock the keyboard, and end the thread abruptly as a result... it's a potential, it's realistic because my cat Haomao keeps trying to knock it over by jumping on my computer desk for some attention... but there's also a potential for me to not let him... one of the potentials will manifest, the other one and all its potential consequences will fade back into Xiantian. Haomao, back to Xiantian with you and your meddling tail!) Anything tao does can become something tao doesn't do -- manifestations become unmanifest (e.g., you first manifested as an infant in this life, the infant is no longer manifest but neither is he nonexistent, he is simply not manifest in the right-now of Houtian, but he is manifest in the Houtian of back-then and in the eternity of all-time and no-time and always was, is, will be.)

 

So... 2012 looks more like a year of More Yi. The manifest world we're in is out of balance at all times, striving for balance at all times, and at times it is closer and at other times it is farther away from this balance. There's a difference between regular changes (Wuxing, yin-yang, bagua) and irregular changes (Yi). Regular changes manifest, e.g., as seasonal (Conception-Growth-Fruition-Consummation, or Spring-Summer-Autumn-Winter, with all their attributes and events in harmony and order). Irregular changes manifest as upheavals, a monkey wrench thrown into the mechanics of harmonious changes, so to speak -- that's Yi. The I Ching (Yi Jing) deals with the consequences of this monkey wrench. In 2012 or thereabouts (I'm not sure about the date, but pretty sure about the process) a really big one gets thrown in. Is all...

[Taomeow]

So, your take, Lady Miao? Be better prepared in case things to go off course? Make multiple plans: A, B, C and D? Or, simply just do more meditation?

 

Or both.

 

With apologies to all serious meditators out there, I happen to think meditation tends to be overrated as a solution to social problems and personal tests alike. If it wasn't, all those meditators who, e.g., join a monastery and spend their whole lives meditating would be expected to solve some?.. Monasteries, in the meantime, were being raided by bandits and destroyed by fire and steel at the imperial and warlord and Red Guard military or political or pillage-plunder discretion as readily as any place meditation-free. I wouldn't ignore the fact and substitute wishful thinking...

 

A multi-pronged approach is best... with some humility on the side -- otherwise one may feel devastated and paralyzed into complete inefficiency and incompetence once reality gets harsh enough to teach her she is not as omnipotent and bullet-proof after all as she fancied herself to be just because she hadn't been put to the real test yet. (I've been through this humbling experience several times -- remind me to tell the story of The Lesson of the Bee if you're up to hearing it sometime, about the very first such reality check, at age 6... I keep reverting back to that lesson for humility whenever I start getting cocky...) So -- Plan A, B, C, D... Plan A is perhaps "nothing's happening, it's business as usual, proceed as usual with no extra caution" -- the part that sucks is, it is not at all compatible with plan B or plan C... so while learning to tolerate ambiguity (plan D), you try to do as much as you can to accomplish as much as you can and leave the rest to the gods. Strengthen your body and your mind... Know where to run and hide... try to stay up to speed as to "when..." ...make yourself useful to a community by gaining valuable skills, make yourself useless to the enslavers by losing any skills they find valuable... and so on. Ask the I Ching. Meditate. Do what you can. Use magic if you can, don't fool yourself and don't imagine superpowers within yourself that are a match to the old, well-entrenched power of evil by default, with no effort required on your part. Be kind to people, above all be kind to people and animals and all creatures great and small. Be a warrior if that's what kindness warrants -- you can't be kind AND powerless, your kindness is a joke if you can't do anything about helping anyone with it on account of being powerless or cowardly or both. And so on.

 

In other words, I don't know of any simple answers except for one -- "don't stick your head up your own ass, or all the answers you will find are going to be shitty."

[zerostao]

Thank you for digging up and noticing this thread!

 

Edited May 25, 2014 by zerostao