Full-lotus fallacy

[Gerard]

Read this:

 

 

Nevertheless, we should not go to an extreme and cling to a sitting position or lotus posture as if it is indispensable to meditation. Nirvana can be realised in any posture. To give a simple example by referring to a meditation previously discussed, I should say that one does not have to sit cross legged in order to eat ice cream! Not only the mindfulness of body, but that of feeling, mind, and dharmas, is also possible in other postures like sleeping, standing, and walking. The following examples should be closely examined to decide whether the sitting posture or, for that matter, any fixed posture is needed to succeed in meditation.

 

The Commentary to Theri Gatha, Paramattha Dipani, records that Terika attained enlightenment while watching the leaves that she was cooking in a pan in her kitchen [9]. When this happened she was a lay woman with all her household affairs. According to the Commentary, one day as Patacara was pouring out water to wash her feet she watched how the water ran on the ground and sank into soil. This scene opened her mind to enlightenment [10]. When Uppalavanna's turn came to clean the assembly hall, she completed her duty and for a while she was watching the lamp she lit up in the assembly hall. This outer light kindled her inner light and she became an arahant [11]. Dhamma Theri one day was on her way back to her nunnery, and as she was old and weak she fell down on the way. Then she was mindful of her fall for a while and became an arahant [12]. Similarly The Commentary to the Suttanipata, Paramatthajotika, states that a king of Varanasi attained enlightenment when he was watching the movement of many bangles his queen was wearing when she was pounding sandalwood to make scented powder out of it [13].

 

It is an important lesson for us to learn from the above examples that there is no fixed posture for fruitful meditation. Although Patacara was standing, and Dhamma was fallen on the ground, their bodily postures were not obstacles to their enlightenment. One could lie down and meditate just as one could walk, stand or sit and meditate. When I claim that meditation while lying down also is an authentic posture, my friends sometimes have taken it as a joke, laziness or fake meditation. Not only any posture but also by bodily movement, for instance the rising and falling of the abdomen, bending and stretching of arms or legs, inhaling and exhaling breath, or even blinking of eyes, can be meditated on. Awareness or mindfulness can be kept on any bodily movement or even non-movement by the meditator. Any posture or non-posture could be effective in meditation. The scriptural support for this claim comes from the often cited Satipatthana Sutta itself.

 

...abhikkante patikkante sampajanakari hoti. Alokite vilokite sampajanakari hoti. Samminjite pasarite sampajanakari hoti. Samghatipattacivaradharane sampajanakari hoti. Asite pite khayite sayite sampajanakari hoti. Uccarapassavakamme sampajanakari hoti. Gate thite nisinne sutte jagarite bhasite tunhibhave sampajanakari hoti.[14]

 

Here the Buddha has taught the meditator to be attentive when he or she is going forward, returning, looking straight ahead, looking in other directions, bending arms-legs- or body, stretching out arms- legs- or body, getting dressed, wearing any thing, eating, drinking, tasting, using the toilet, walking, standing, sitting, sleeping or lying down, waking, talking and remaining silent. In short, the Satipatthana Sutta teaches that one has to be mindful all the time. It is clear that in each and every bodily movement one must be alert. All the time, through and through one's daily living, one has to be attentive to each and every action.

 

Meditation is done in every minute of our lives, even during sleep, not only during strict meditation. And if we meditate in this fashion, through constant and repeated awareness, enlightenment is feasible in one lifetime (if the conditions are right, of course).

 

Quoted from here:

 

http://www.buddhanet.net/tr20.htm

 

 

Interestingly, the historic Buddha spent most of his meditations in a lying down fashion; there is a Sutra that mentions this but I lost the link. Sorry.

 

 

As you can see, there are lots of misconceptions about the full-lotus posture mainly publicized the folklore because it looks cooler than someone just lying down. The most important thing is working on your minds and becoming aware of the present moment of life, each and every movement of our physical and mental existence.

 

That kind of awareness is essential to have penetrating insight into the physical and mental phenomena which encompasses the whole world.

 

"Vipassana" is the key.

 

 

Good luck.

Edited July 17, 2008 by durkhrod chogori

[Taiji Bum]

Full-lotus does look cool..... I've never been able to do it though. So Buddha meditated lying down? That is just fascinating! If you find the link again please post it!

[Patrick Brown]

Interesting and what I've pretty much always thought although I do think the imagery of sitting Buddha's exist because of certain esoteric aspects of Buddhism. Similarly the cross of Jesus is the unfolded cube as well as symbolising the natural cycle of the seasons. Jesus dies with his head to the right, masculine aspect, and is reborn when his head turns to the left, feminine aspect and birth. Therefore in accepting his true divine nature as androgynous he breaks the cycle of rebirth and rises from the dead to the sphere of the self born.

 

The sitting Buddha's can be seen to symbolism many things to those that are open and carry the dharma in many ways. One explicit way which is not particularly esoteric is the appearance of the upward moving triangle which is seen as the eternal growth of spirit from matter you can even perceive that it is a path laid out before you. Other aspects become more apparent as one moves further along the path towards the light of truth. There's come a point when the first enlightenment is reached and this then becomes the ever flowing enlightenment.

 

 

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQ-kvw1fYXs&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param'>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQ-kvw1fYXs&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQ-kvw1fYXs&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

 

 

 

 

Edited July 17, 2008 by Patrick Brown

[Janus]

Edited August 13, 2008 by Janus

[Patrick Brown]

Sakyamuni did lying meditation? Well if its good enough for him....

Not to mention Vishnu, yes that's his mum sorting his ankles out after he attempted full lotus!

 

[styrofoamdog]

I've been reading a Nan Huai-Chin book lately, and I've read in many of Drew Hempel's posts that he holds Dr. Nan in high regard. What I find funny about this is that in the book, Dr. Nan introduces over 20 different positions for cultivation, and then states that they are basically interchangeable and that readers can pick whichever they prefer.

 

People always want to believe that there's a secret bit of esoteric information -- a body position, a mudra, some secret practice only one master knows about, etc. that's keeping us from enlightenment. We have Buddhist sutras, Daoist classics, and excellent books at our fingertips. Our learning resources are richer than any number of monks and students who existed in the past. But today I think we don't value what we learn, and we practice it even less. In my opinion, the only missing element today is hard work and dedication.

[Sahaj Nath]

People always want to believe that there's a secret bit of esoteric information -- a body position, a mudra, some secret practice only one master knows about, etc. that's keeping us from enlightenment. We have Buddhist sutras, Daoist classics, and excellent books at our fingertips. Our learning resources are richer than any number of monks and students who existed in the past. But today I think we don't value what we learn, and we practice it even less. In my opinion, the only missing element today is hard work and dedication.

 

seldom has truer words been written on this forum, my friend.

 

 

to this i would add one final missing element: Trust.

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.innerpromise.net/breathe.html

Edited July 17, 2008 by Hundun

[WCH]

I first started practicing meditation while laying in bed at night. I would focus on my breathing for about 20-40 minutes, until I fell asleep. My early progress was mind-blowing. These days I mostly meditate in a recliner while sitting in half-lotus (there's an hour and a half of crap TV between The Simpsons and South Park, so I dedicate that to meditation). Once again, I'm amazed at my progress.

 

I think that an important key is to be comfortable to the point where you can actually be mindful and continue noting sensations, rather than thinking about how much your back hurts or your knees ache (although, to be fair, I do spend about a half hour every morning on the cushion).

[findley]

I have been doing modified versions of 'embracing the tree' lying down. I obviously lack the benefit of being rooted through the practice... but it sure as hell beats not doing it at all!

[voidisyinyang]

OK so I assume you're reading Nan, Huai-chin's "Cultivating the Tao" book? That's where he gives all the different postures. The books of his I emphasize are his dharma lectures -- Working Towards Enlightenment and Realizing Enlightenment. Two books -- I read them each 3 times before I felt I grasped his basic concepts.

 

Most importantly Nan says that the body MUST be transformed and that full-lotus is the easiest sign that this transformation has taken place. Of course Nan states that consciousness is formless or "empty awareness" but to achieve that through mind yoga is just emptying out the sixth (conceptual) and seventh (ego) level of consciousness which are relatively easy to empty out. "Supreme complete enlightenment" only happens when the 8th level of consciousness is emptied out (the universe) which happens WHEN the first five levels of consciousness are emptied out (consciousness of the body). This is the same as what the book "Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality" teaches and is the same as the concept of the "rainbow body."

 

In contrast -- mind yoga on its own is the focus of Advaita Vedanta and western buddhism. This means left-brain meditation, using logical inference -- repeating I-I-I over and over until NO THOUGHTS arise (after the heart stops for 10 minutes). So quite literally you practice until you transcend your own death but then your body restarts and afterwards every thought automatically empties out past the first 5 levels of consciousness as per Mahayana Buddhism. The difference being that in mind yoga you just let the body do whatever since your awareness is already united with the consciousness that created your body. Mind yoga is practiced based on a strict caste system -- the Brahmin priest had to do 3 days of ritual cleansing if any female was just seen -- so strict male priest isolation was necessary for successful mind yoga. Western followers of this ignore the actual cultural context and use mind yoga as a convenient means of thinking the world is an illusion, thereby escaping responsibility for the fallacies of Western logic.

 

I had this conversation with an old friend of mine whose sister studied with H.W.L. Poonja. He believes he achieved self-realization and now he goes out drinking and smoking and feasting every night (while getting free room and board as a psychotropic patient). He says the psychotropic medication has no effect on him and previously he was getting free room and board while claiming he was depressed but then he said advaita vedanta cured him (threatening his free funds)....

 

Anyway H.W.L. Poonja complained how westerners would come to study with him and then they would just shack up making it a free love site -- just like the same problem with Aurobindo's ashram. So in mind yoga you still have to sublimate the sex energy -- but ONLY full-lotus successfully does this while living in the context of the horny, materialistic commodity-fetish, sex-driven West. As qigong master Chunyi Lin states: 20 minutes of full-lotus is worth 4 hours of any other practice. Qigong master Chunyi Lin also states if you want to find out who is a real master just see how long they can sit in full-lotus.

 

In closing keep in mind that Master Nan, Huai-chin also states that practicing meditation seriously is probably not even a good idea in this time of the dharma being destroyed. Master Nan, Huai-chin states that a serious question of the sixth level of consciousness (conceptual) is why humans were created in the first place. haha.

 

 

 

 

 

I've been reading a Nan Huai-Chin book lately, and I've read in many of Drew Hempel's posts that he holds Dr. Nan in high regard. What I find funny about this is that in the book, Dr. Nan introduces over 20 different positions for cultivation, and then states that they are basically interchangeable and that readers can pick whichever they prefer.

 

People always want to believe that there's a secret bit of esoteric information -- a body position, a mudra, some secret practice only one master knows about, etc. that's keeping us from enlightenment. We have Buddhist sutras, Daoist classics, and excellent books at our fingertips. Our learning resources are richer than any number of monks and students who existed in the past. But today I think we don't value what we learn, and we practice it even less. In my opinion, the only missing element today is hard work and dedication.

[mantis]

sitting in full lotus is no big deal

 

get the "secrets of stretching" dvd by tom kurz to help you open up your hips (thanks to Trunk). i downloaded it off a torrent website, i'm sure you can too.

[Patrick Brown]

OK so I assume you're reading Nan, Huai-chin's "Cultivating the Tao" book? That's where he gives all the different postures. The books of his I emphasize are his dharma lectures -- Working Towards Enlightenment and Realizing Enlightenment. Two books -- I read them each 3 times before I felt I grasped his basic concepts.

 

Most importantly Nan says that the body MUST be transformed and that full-lotus is the easiest sign that this transformation has taken place. Of course Nan states that consciousness is formless or "empty awareness" but to achieve that through mind yoga is just emptying out the sixth (conceptual) and seventh (ego) level of consciousness which are relatively easy to empty out. "Supreme complete enlightenment" only happens when the 8th level of consciousness is emptied out (the universe) which happens WHEN the first five levels of consciousness are emptied out (consciousness of the body). This is the same as what the book "Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality" teaches and is the same as the concept of the "rainbow body."

 

In contrast -- mind yoga on its own is the focus of Advaita Vedanta and western buddhism. This means left-brain meditation, using logical inference -- repeating I-I-I over and over until NO THOUGHTS arise (after the heart stops for 10 minutes). So quite literally you practice until you transcend your own death but then your body restarts and afterwards every thought automatically empties out past the first 5 levels of consciousness as per Mahayana Buddhism. The difference being that in mind yoga you just let the body do whatever since your awareness is already united with the consciousness that created your body. Mind yoga is practiced based on a strict caste system -- the Brahmin priest had to do 3 days of ritual cleansing if any female was just seen -- so strict male priest isolation was necessary for successful mind yoga. Western followers of this ignore the actual cultural context and use mind yoga as a convenient means of thinking the world is an illusion, thereby escaping responsibility for the fallacies of Western logic.

 

I had this conversation with an old friend of mine whose sister studied with H.W.L. Poonja. He believes he achieved self-realization and now he goes out drinking and smoking and feasting every night (while getting free room and board as a psychotropic patient). He says the psychotropic medication has no effect on him and previously he was getting free room and board while claiming he was depressed but then he said advaita vedanta cured him (threatening his free funds)....

 

Anyway H.W.L. Poonja complained how westerners would come to study with him and then they would just shack up making it a free love site -- just like the same problem with Aurobindo's ashram. So in mind yoga you still have to sublimate the sex energy -- but ONLY full-lotus successfully does this while living in the context of the horny, materialistic commodity-fetish, sex-driven West. As qigong master Chunyi Lin states: 20 minutes of full-lotus is worth 4 hours of any other practice. Qigong master Chunyi Lin also states if you want to find out who is a real master just see how long they can sit in full-lotus.

 

In closing keep in mind that Master Nan, Huai-chin also states that practicing meditation seriously is probably not even a good idea in this time of the dharma being destroyed. Master Nan, Huai-chin states that a serious question of the sixth level of consciousness (conceptual) is why humans were created in the first place. haha.

Sorry Drew but I have to say that I've never heard such rubbish.

 

Enlightenment is pretty simple.

 

Wisdom is obvious.

 

And esoteric wisdom is derived from touching the oneness and not books.

[voidisyinyang]

As I sit in full-lotus... flexing my pineal gland. No, no, no, no!

[Patrick Brown]

As I sit in full-lotus... flexing my pineal gland. No, no, no, no!

Your response speaks volumes, no, no, no, no, indeed!

[Sunya]

but the orgasms dude! shooting orgasmic bliss light out the third eye into females and making them squirmmmm, isn't that enlightenment?

 

spiritual progress is measured by your flexibility, anyone who tells you otherwise does not read enough books.

 

[mantis]

several people on this forum have had experiences similar to drew (including myself) so i'd be reluctant to call it bullshit. not everyone on this forum is looking for enlightenment, i don't care about enlightenment and if i don't "achieve" it that's fine.

 

drew has said he's just trying to have fun and i'm sure a good majority of the people on here would use it the same way he does if they could.

 

wife: please honey go mow the lawn

husband: relax i'm watching the praying mantis kills

wife: you're useless

husband: "O at a D"

wife: ^ _ ^

[SiliconValley]

Not to mention Vishnu, yes that's his mum sorting his ankles out after he attempted full lotus!

 

That is Lakshmi, his wife. Seems like you're used to your mom sorting your ankles often!! Weird imagination though considering you don't do full lotus lol!

 

Here's same Vishnu seated in Full Lotus, in the context of Yoga - as Yogeshwar Badrinath, the Lord of the Yogis:

 

 

Edited July 18, 2008 by SiliconValley

[林愛偉]

There are four manners to master in cultivation as far as posture is concerned:

 

Standing, Sitting, Walking and Lying.

 

The Buddha taught different methods for different conditions of the students he received. Not all of what he taught one group would stand for every single living being. Thus the 84,000 Dharma Doors.

[Aetherous]

wife: please honey go mow the lawn

husband: relax i'm watching the praying mantis kills

wife: you're useless

husband: "O at a D"

wife: ^ _ ^

 

[Smile]

I should probably repost a cemetery meditation Buddha taught to some of his students.

*looking for pictures of decomposed bodies in various stages on his hard drive*

[Mal]

Brother,

Thank you for the pictures. I'm thinking of putting the best one on my desktop to remind me of what really is important.

See:

1. http://forum.taobums.com/viewtopic.php?top...;p=405&t=97

2. http://www.beyondthenet.net/medit/GaminiPr...templation.html

 

Deja vu But only the second link is working now

http://www.beyondthenet.net/medit/GaminiPr...templation.html

 

Even has a full lotus reference so it's even "on topic"

[Patrick Brown]

several people on this forum have had experiences similar to drew (including myself) so i'd be reluctant to call it bullshit. not everyone on this forum is looking for enlightenment, i don't care about enlightenment and if i don't "achieve" it that's fine.

 

drew has said he's just trying to have fun and i'm sure a good majority of the people on here would use it the same way he does if they could.

I've got no problem with drew and his practice and the full-lotus may indeed be the best posture for him. But practice is practice and not enlightenment and therefore posture has very little to do with it. As I've said before nirvanic bliss is not enlightenment. Lower level Bodhisattva's experience nirvanic bliss but this doesn't mean they are enlightened. Drew has somehow learned how to flick a switch and get orgasmic bliss rushing through his body, which is fine as long as he knows what he's doing.

 

As for other peoples comments about those that seek esoteric postures and mudras I would tend to agree that this is pointless. I figure we're all aware that certain postures are more conducive to energy flow although I don't think these could be said to be esoteric in the truest sense. Cultivation without enlightenment may not yield anything more than a continued series of sensations and peak experiences without any real growth. Cultivation with enlightenment means you have become one with the way/path and this yields spiritual growth hence mahanirvana and mahaparanirvana.

 

Edited July 18, 2008 by Patrick Brown

[Smile]

 

Deja vu But only the second link is working now

http://www.beyondthenet.net/medit/GaminiPr...templation.html

 

Even has a full lotus reference so it's even "on topic"

 

Yeah, but the pics from the first link were much "better".

[gendao]

wife: please honey go mow the lawn

husband: relax i'm watching the praying mantis kills

wife: you're useless

husband: "O at a D"

wife: ^ _ ^

Seriously, I need to learn this anti-drama technology! Could save a lot of headaches!

 

But first, I'd like to see drew post an actual video objectively verifying and showing these O@Ds...

[voidisyinyang]

http://ce399.typepad.com/weblog/2008/07/mi...n-miracles.html