Lighttime Posted July 18, 2008 Wang, Liping---Full Lotus Chunyi Lin---Full Lotus Nan Huai-Chin---Full Lotus Let's not be so hasty in judging teachers we should be having respect for. Here's how. <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value=" name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src=" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object> Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
styrofoamdog Posted July 18, 2008 Wang, Liping---Full Lotus Chunyi Lin---Full Lotus Nan Huai-Chin---Full Lotus Let's not be so hasty in judging teachers we should be having respect for. Care to cite where Wang Liping and Nan Huaijin state that Full Lotus is necessary for cultivation? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lighttime Posted July 18, 2008 Care to cite where Wang Liping and Nan Huaijin state that Full Lotus is necessary for cultivation? About Wang Liping chinadao Posted on: Jul 2 2008, 05:36 PM Member * Group: The Tao Bums Posts: 13 Joined: 17-April 08 Member No.: 11,216 Hello Dao Bums, I am presently in China beginning the tenth day of a ten day intensive retreat with Wang Liping. There are eight of us in this group. Four of the students are here for the second time, the other four are first-timers, myself included. I can confirm that all the meditation is done sitting in lotus (cross, half, full, depending on individual abilities). Liping says that lotus is the foundation for building a strong dantien and stove/cauldron and without this strong foundation you cannot correctly develop this in your own body. He says lotus closes the meridians in the legs and seals the yin gates (perinium, anus, sexual organs) to allow the qi to collect in our bodies during meditation. If you sit in a chair you simply won't get the same results he says. Yes, it is painful, but it seems to bring results. We sit for 90-140 minutes, twice per day. The retreat is amazing. Wang Liping is gem of a teacher in my opinion. Edward Richards http://www.thetaobums.com/search.html&...sult_type=posts Wang Liping Nan Huai Chin (Scroll down just a little to methods of sitting) http://books.google.ca/books?id=YAoZ5m9u8O...1&ct=result Hope this helps. Take care. great video Thanks Jedi, Hope it comes in handy. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
styrofoamdog Posted July 18, 2008 Notice that Wang Liping does not say that Full Lotus alone can build the dan tian. He implies that one of the three variations of Lotus should be used. And also, it only addresses the stage of building up the dan tian, and not necessarily stages following that. In the Nan Huaijin book referenced, there is no requirement of any Lotus position under that section from what I read. In fact, it states that there are up to 96 different positions for meditation, and only cites Lotus as an example. Wang Liping's reasoning for Lotus (any of the three) is that it blocks off the legs so qi doesn't flow down into the legs. Nan Huaijin only states (Tao & Longevity) that Lotus (any of the three) postures are useful because they balance qi between the legs. So I have yet to see anything from them stating that Full Lotus specifically is required at any stage of cultivation. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mantis Posted July 18, 2008 I can confirm that all the meditation is done sitting in lotus (cross, half, full, depending on individual abilities). depending on individual abilities, obviously full lotus being the best so he does have high regards for it Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
styrofoamdog Posted July 18, 2008 depending on individual abilities, obviously full lotus being the best so he does have high regards for it Just about everyone who meditates has a high regard for Full Lotus. Nobody has disrespected it from what I have read. The issue is, and has always been, people claiming that it is the key to meditation and trying to say that certain masters agree with this view. To the best of my knowledge this has never been taught by Nan Huaijin and Wang Liping. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
voidisyinyang Posted July 19, 2008 Here's my contention 1) In the two Master Nan books I recommend (Working Towards Enlightenment and Realizing Enlightenment) which are much more indepth than Tao and Longevity -- Master Nan states that sitting in full-lotus demonstrates that the body channels have been transformed. Master Nan states that you CAN transform the body using the mind only but that it's much harder. Master Nan then goes ON and ON about how the problem with Japan is that Zen became ONLY conceptual -- or mind yoga -- with no emphasis of transforming the body. 2) Qigong master Chunyi Lin states that 20 minutes of full-lotus equals 4 hours of any other practice. 3) Wang, Liping had to sit in 4 hours of full-lotus as the FIRST step in his training -- so painful that he had to be tied down. 4) the lineage of Yogananda ALSO relies on full-lotus -- Ok my right foot is numb but more importantly I have to take a leak so I just went out of full-lotus. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
styrofoamdog Posted July 19, 2008 Here's my contention 1) In the two Master Nan books I recommend (Working Towards Enlightenment and Realizing Enlightenment) which are much more indepth than Tao and Longevity -- Master Nan states that sitting in full-lotus demonstrates that the body channels have been transformed. Master Nan states that you CAN transform the body using the mind only but that it's much harder. Master Nan then goes ON and ON about how the problem with Japan is that Zen became ONLY conceptual -- or mind yoga -- with no emphasis of transforming the body. 2) Qigong master Chunyi Lin states that 20 minutes of full-lotus equals 4 hours of any other practice. 3) Wang, Liping had to sit in 4 hours of full-lotus as the FIRST step in his training -- so painful that he had to be tied down. 4) the lineage of Yogananda ALSO relies on full-lotus -- Ok my right foot is numb but more importantly I have to take a leak so I just went out of full-lotus. 1. Nan Huajin covers the same subject in the book that I have read. To him, sitting in Full Lotus very comfortably demonstrates -- the key word -- that the legs have been opened. But the method of meditation that he teaches in order to achieve this state does not require sitting in Full Lotus. 2. I'm not familiar with Chunyi Lin and had never heard of him before reading your posts. 3. Wang Liping was going through very rigorous training from the beginning with no intermediate steps. But how does him learning meditation that happens to use Full Lotus, demonstrate that the posture is the key to his training? I've never heard of him or any of his students stating that it is a key element in cultivation. 4. I generally don't look to Yoga for cues on Daoist meditation. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
松永道 Posted July 19, 2008 (edited) 3. Wang Liping was going through very rigorous training from the beginning with no intermediate steps. But how does him learning meditation that happens to use Full Lotus, demonstrate that the posture is the key to his training? I've never heard of him or any of his students stating that it is a key element in cultivation. Full-lotus is an exercise. Physical as well as mental. Exercises in different positions bring different results. In the case of full-lotus, physiologically speaking blood flow to the legs and brain are reduced (assuming you also use the chin lock) resulting in increased circulation to the internal organs. Blood circulation is qi circulation. Stiff spots, tight spots, blind spots are all areas of reduced circulation. The body is the mind and the mind is the body. Full mental/emotional liberation will bring full body flow. Full body flow will bring mental/emotional liberation. Why not work from both angles? Full-lotus is the way to do just that. If you have a physical disability that prevents full-lotus, then by all means, don't despair. However, stiffness and laziness are no excuses. Enlightenment is worth working for. P.S. I can tell you for a fact that Full-lotus is a foundational requirement for the Longmen Pai (Wang Liping's) system. Edited July 19, 2008 by 松永道 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mantis Posted July 19, 2008 sean denty also just posted that it is eventually required for wang liping's students to sit in full lotus Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
styrofoamdog Posted July 19, 2008 [...] P.S. I can tell you for a fact that Full-lotus is a foundational requirement for the Longmen Pai (Wang Liping's) system. Thanks for clarifying this. Information on Wang Liping is a bit hard to come by, so it's always interesting when those "in the know" can shed some light on it. sean denty also just posted that it is eventually required for wang liping's students to sit in full lotus That may be true, but if I took everything that Sean Denty says seriously.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lighttime Posted July 20, 2008 Read page 251 and 252.(give it a few moments to load.) Yes both pages will come into view, just scroll down and then back up. Hope this helps. Take care. http://books.google.ca/books?id=TR61OLv4Vj...esult#PPA251,M1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chinadao Posted July 21, 2008 (edited) We can add John Chang and the Mo Pai to the list of Full-Lotus cultivators. One week after I first learned Level 1 in Indonesia in February 2005, while sitting in John Chang's home, I said, "Shifu, I have been practicing Level 1 for an hour twice per day." John Chang asked, "You can sit lotus?" "Yes", I replied, and moved into full-lotus on his sofa. John Chang nodded his head and grunted his approval. Regarding Wang Liping, he is most strict about sitting in lotus for all phases of the Dragon Gate path (please just read the book). Of course, not every beginner can from the start so some students are in half-lotus or even cross legged. However, Master Wang is most strict about NOT MOVING/SHIFTING our legs during the 90min - 2+hour meditation. Yes, it always gets uncomfortable and painful and that is when Master Wang says that we must persevere and hold our posture if we are to get results! I need to improve at this myself... While full-lotus may not be the only path, it is certainly an extremely valid path and one with a long history of success especially in Daoist lineages. So can we stop doubting its efficacy? Edward Richards Chicago, IL Edited July 23, 2008 by chinadao Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sheng zhen Posted July 21, 2008 However, Master Wang is most strict about NOT MOVING/SHIFTING our legs during the 90min - 2+hour meditation. Yes, it always gets uncomfortable and painful and that is when Master Wang says that we must persevere and hold our posture if we are to get results! I need to improve at this myself... So nice of you to post the picture! How was the retreat? What did you learn? Did you meditate all day or did he teach a lot of theory too? Are you allowed to sit on a pillow or something to lift the spine a little or does Wang LiPing make you sit flat on the floor? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
styrofoamdog Posted July 21, 2008 (edited) Has anyone read my posts and realized that I'm not criticizing Full Lotus? As I've stated several times in the past, it's probably the most effective general meditation posture. However, I was and am still skeptical that it is the most important point in cultivation as some claim it is. Edited July 21, 2008 by styrofoamdog Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
findley Posted July 21, 2008 Thank you guys for emphasizing this posture. I never really liked it before, because I felt that the discomfort distracted from my ability to concentrate, to be open, and to be relaxed. -I have been practicing my 'solo-cultivation' (ahem ) in the full-lotus, and am noticing a big difference. I am opening up quite a bit, ('winds' all over, especially around my skull.. and yesterday I felt a high after gazing into my [ex] girlfriends eyes-- love, or energy transfer... probably both havent really fel tit like that before.) Full-Lotus definately is worth it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dao zhen Posted July 21, 2008 It is a funny thing to be going back and forth with such a topic. There are a lot better things we could be talking about; theory, methods, personal experiences, etc. Almost every temple I visited in China, there would eventually be a conversation as such with one or a few of the resident Taoist monks. "so, do you practice sitting practice?"..... "how long can you sit for?"......... "what experiences have you had - sensations - visions - "......... "do you sit in half or full lotus?"...... It became very obvious that full lotus is a basic foundation skill for most Taoists I met in China. Basic skill....... If you can not sit in full lotus, they would kind of give you a look...... So there is that....... When I first met my teacher, I had almost no previous experience in sitting. It was very painful. Half lotus was a real challenge for me to hold for 1 to 1.5 hours. He told me it is fine to sit in half lotus and had this to say. "From our experience, we can say that you may pass through ALL of the steps in Alchemy practice in half lotus. You do not need to try and force yourself to hold the posture of full lotus." Later I began to train in full lotus. He thought it was very good. He said it is a very good concentration pose, shuts the lower gate, and good for discipline. He also had this to say.... "Lotus Pose is not important. It in the end is a physical posture. The main important thing is Liberation of the Heart Mind." "If you are full of pain, and screaming mentally due to a difficult posture, you will never Liberate the Heart Mind." "Meditation can be performed in many different postures. Master Chen Tuan performed almost completely in a lying posture. While there are standard postures that can bring the best results quickly, they are not absolute, and there can be flexibility and variation." Liberate the Heart Mind........... PS. In the end, we can look at what we get from our practice. This is reality. If there is inner growth, internal development, then something is taking place, and it is a good thing. Many can not sit in full lotus, and can still make great internal gains. Practice. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
joeblast Posted July 21, 2008 I dont think anyone has said lotus is more important than the biggies like stillness, liberating the heart mind, attaining realization, what have you. As with anything, there's always those 'good to have but not a necessity' things. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
voidisyinyang Posted July 21, 2008 Fascinating report backs. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chinadao Posted July 23, 2008 So nice of you to post the picture! How was the retreat? What did you learn? Did you meditate all day or did he teach a lot of theory too? Are you allowed to sit on a pillow or something to lift the spine a little or does Wang LiPing make you sit flat on the floor? The retreat with Master Wang was excellent. We did two long sitting meditation sessions per day, plus morning practice and evening practice on half of the nights. There was also extensive theoretical discussion which was quite informative. He does allow cushions or pillows to lift the spine. Although he himself does not use them. Master Wang understands everyone is beginning at their own level. As an interesting aside for all the Tao Bums. In the very short time since I posted the group photo from our 10-day retreat with Wang Liping, I and several other people in the photo have been deluged with emails, telephone calls, and PM's from Sean Denty. Asking about the cost of our retreat amongst other things. He was all over us like a bad suit, trying to protect his interests. I thought everyone on this forum should know. I haven't bothered to read Sean Denty's 3 PM's he sent to me within 57 minutes. If I do read them, it will only be to share publicly with the Tao Bums. Also, one of the other people in the group photo requested that I remove the photo and so I will comply with their request. They don't want Sean Denty's hassling. Me, I couldn't care less. Still in China, I will be back home at the end of the week. Edward Richards Chicago, IL Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HouTian Posted July 23, 2008 Good Job Edward, Anything to stop this criminal David Verdesi & the blind mice that choose to follow him so quickly. However i guess its some people Karma to have him as their Master/Teacher.Everybody gets the Teacher they deserve i feel. Fools rush in is another way to put it. Good Luck everybody & Hope your journey for the truth will end soon. Regards, Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
voidisyinyang Posted July 23, 2008 On a lighter note -- was just back from a full-lotus session in the park -- at night. First I'm on the grass in the dark, facing the moon. My pineal gland is pulsating and I'm wondering where is the energy shooting into? At first I thought it was the moon so I pointed my pineal gland at the moon. (haha). No -- the rate of vagus nerve pulsation did not increase. Ah -- but I'm getting bit -- ants I think. Then I noticed this BIG rabbit to my right. Don't think much of it since rabbits are common -- but this one has the WHOLE park, lots of food. So then I move to a picnic bench. More full-lotus. Again the pineal gland is pulsating -- something is sucking up my energy. That's great because it exorcises the lower emotions (fear, anger, sadness, worry, lust). So I don't question it. More pineal gland pulsations. Then I notice the rabbit followed me to the picnic bench -- from 50 feet away -- even though it had the WHOLE park to itself. The energy is going INTO the rabbit. The rabbit keeps coming closer. Closer. It's only a few feet from me now, right under the picnic bench - even though there's not much grass under the bench -- and the energy from my pineal gland is FLOWING into the Rabbit. I love the rabbit. The rabbit loves me. We share the park together in perfect harmony. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sheng zhen Posted July 23, 2008 The retreat with Master Wang was excellent. We did two long sitting meditation sessions per day, plus morning practice and evening practice on half of the nights. There was also extensive theoretical discussion which was quite informative. He does allow cushions or pillows to lift the spine. Although he himself does not use them. Master Wang understands everyone is beginning at their own level. Wonderful! Did you do Small Heavenly Orbit work like explained in the blog, or did you do other things? Shui gong maby?? I think that sounds interesting after hearing other peoples experiencing Wang LiPings work through dreams. Sean Denty, that sounds a little over-the-top dosent it...? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
