Dao Zhen on Dan Tian

[styrofoamdog]

I asked Dao Zhen recently if he could explain to me what he knows about the lower Dan Tian, and what its functions are. He gave a really excellent response....

 

Thank you for your letter.

 

I have limited experience.

 

So really a lot of what I say is maybe 45% personal experience and 55% stating from lectures with my teacher.

 

I can say that my teacher is very accomplished, and is far along the road in internal alchemy development.

 

I also am not sure what will develop naturally - say if you just practice and slightly focus to the dan tian, and what takes place when you receive transmission from face to face practice with an accomplished teacher and then focus to the dan tian or really the elixir field, etc.

 

I have taught a few people online through email, and a lot took place - but then maybe from the interaction transmission took place?

 

I guess I am trying to say I do not have all the answers, and am not an authority.

 

Yes, Qi is not indefinitely stored in the LTT.

 

It is also not something you continue to focus on during the course of practice.

 

If you keep practicing for a few years and just constantly focus to the LTT, you can cause a lot of problems, and even give yourself bad health, and internal damage, etc.

 

So it is important to know what is your work to do in practice, and what is the work of nature.

 

The Dan Tian has nothing to really do with "air" or the acquired breathing.

 

Dan Tian does have something to do with Pre Heaven Breathing.

 

Dan Tian can be thought of as a "Spring", it is where the Qi will move from so to speak.

 

So I am perhaps really thinking it is something we build.

 

This is why in the first stages, we focus there.

 

It is also the place where Yang Qi will be cultivated.

 

It is like we do cultivation there for a time.

 

Then we do nothing, and what was cultivated there will circulate naturally.

 

If in the begining there was no work done in the Dan Tian, then there is nothing to circulate.

 

But in the end, maybe you should take a few months and try out a practice and see what happens.

 

Sometimes if you do not meet a master who can give you faith in the practice and method (by observing his accomplishment in person), you have to just try a method or even experiment (this can be dangerous though).

 

I like Nan Huaijin's book Tao and Longevity, but found that some of the things he stated about practice were not as I personally experienced, and some were the exact same, and some things he talked about I had not experienced.

 

I personally found in my school of practice they do not really use the breathing to cultivate or develop the Qi.

 

But most Qigong methods really stress the action of breathing.

 

We do use the breathing to still and lead the mind at a basic stage - we "listen" to the breathing and follow it to combine with the breathing.

 

It is the inner Qi that is naturally developed and cultivated from Gazing in the Dan Tian we cultivate in the first steps.

 

This Qi cultivation we can term - "Inner Elixir".

 

After some foundationwork is accomplished in the above - such as meridian being opened, and storing and developing inner Qi in Dantian, transforming turbid jing back to Qi, and mind will becomes still and naturally focused then we move to another stage naturally.

 

All of the above is working internally, and with your internal resources.

 

The Yang Qi then begins to arrive on the scene.

 

Yang Qi is something like the Qi which surrounds Heaven and Earth.

 

There is no "technique" we can use to gain the arrival of Yang Qi.

 

There are many signs when it arrives.

 

One sign is a loud roaring or vibration sound begins to build in sound and also in a felt density.

 

It is something felt, heard - inside and outside - and it is seemed to be linked to nature and also linked to the flow of your internal qi flow.

 

We have to create an "environment" or proper "conditions" for its arrival.

 

When these conditons are present, and most important when you begin to fall into emptiness then the Yang Qi starts to come.

 

Firs there will be the sound, then the sound will lead you to a "place" or a "state".

 

As you begin to cultivate Yang Qi, this is termed - "Cultivation of External Elixir".

 

Yang Qi also can be termed the External Medicine.

 

Many different terms and it is confusing.

 

After some cultivation, all of this will be stored in the Dan Tian.

 

Then........

 

These substances will naturally reach a fullness, or a peak, or its crest.

 

Then they will begin to circulate in the Small Water Wheel.

 

This is a key attainment in Alchemy.

 

This is not the common visualization practice that is taught in many schools.

 

The circulation of Small Water Wheel will naturally begin to happen when the preconditons are present.

 

So from my point of view, to travel in this course or direction can not take place if you did not do the work to develop the dan tian and then to cultivate the Yang Qi in the dan tian, etc.

 

Maybe this can all give you some ideas on the importance of development and cultivation of the Lower

Dan Tian.

 

Maye we should put some of this in a post on the forum and people want to talk about it.

 

But talk is cheap, practice and experience is what is of value.

 

Peace.....

And my response, just relating some of my experiences to a few points....

 

Thanks for the comprehensive response! I have been trying to understand more about the nature of Qi and lower Dan Tian to fix my old misconceptions and practice more effectively. Your message has helped me quite a bit with understanding the purpose of the lower Dan Tian. I do not have a teacher, but have experienced some of the things you describe. I'll share the parts that I recognized and could relate to.

 

For building or conditioning the lower Dan Tian, I think it can happen without direct transmission. It requires focus, quiet abdominal breathing, and inner feeling. But it can be clumsy and take time to build up if it is someone's first time. The more experience with lower Dan Tian, the easier it is to build up. If someone loses Jing and Qi from sex and has little energy, then it will need to be rebuilt sometimes.

 

I experienced some of the ill effects of keeping my mind on the lower Dan Tian. I assumed from the books I had read, that I could build up more and more Qi in the lower Dan Tian, as if it was a storage area like a battery. This was not a good idea, and I should have continued to let it flow down into my legs as it had been doing naturally. Continuing concentration on the lower Dan Tian will cause some blockage and soreness in the kidney area. I think that this kept the Du Mai and Ren Mai from opening and stopped my progress. This is the reason I stopped practicing for awhile, and recently began studying and re-thinking the basics to understand where I went wrong.

 

When you say that Qi doesn't relate directly to breathing, I think that I agree with this. Or at least, breathing more or harder won't generate more Qi. It seems like the calmer and thinner the breathing is, the hotter and more effective the Qi is. But it's less tangible and tends to "appear" and get hot when the breathing is subtle.

Edited July 22, 2008 by styrofoamdog

[dao zhen]

To know how to properly focus on the Dan Tian, and its location is very, very important.

 

Also the Dan Tian can not be something you keep packing and storing, but there is a stage to collect, store and harvest.

 

Timing; know when enough is enough and when to move on.

 

Looking at Lower Dan Tian should be like a Gaze, or much like how the sun shines over everything -

not staring strongly.

 

With strong intention, it can cause a kind of "poison fire".

 

There are teachings about how to gaze in the Lower Elixir Field, in order to gain a stronger Water Element, which can counter any strong fire that is generated by using a strong gaze; it is not done using a "direct" route to the Dan Tian,such as gazing directly down from above, but has to be explained in person, and using some drawings to explain the location and method of gaze.

 

There really are points, and centers used in practice that are still not in the public light.

 

Most students do not understand how to use the Mind Will in the first stages properly.

 

Later after some time, we drop the gazing and listen with the power of the "ears" to the Lower Dan Tian.

 

Or perhaps it becomes as if the gaze becomes internal, and then the listening becomes internal and the two combine, also they combine with the "breath".

 

Maybe practice needs to be thought of in this regard at first when sitting as composed by my Taoist brother:

 

Some time later, when the heart has been calmed down, you should gradually close your eyes in order not to witness scenes, gaze in the lower elixir field and also let your ears hear the lower elixir field, make even the breathing in and breathing out, in order to make it as gentle and weak as possible. Of course, nasal obstruction and other disorders concerning the nose should be properly dealt with so as not to effect the breathing to a larger extent.

 

Get legs crossed, the right shank located on the left (which is to see right shank inside while the left outside), place both hands in front of the lower abdomen, palms upwards, left hand below, right above, the thumb of left nestling against the forefinger. The right hand, in the same way, naturally laying above the right--which is called the yang hugging yin. Teeth lightly closed and tongue touching roof of mouth.

 

When engaged in the practice of sitting, one should settle the mind-will in the Lower Elixir Field (the Lower Dantian or Tan Tien), which is located in the empty space below the navel in the middle place between the kidney and navel, a sphere of around 3.8 centimeters. Let the internal vision gaze upon that place. Let golden virtue begin to grow within, releasing all negative qualities and deeply relaxing the body.

 

To constantly settle mind-will in the Lower Elixir Field is the key practice for the novice.

 

From a more advanced outlook:

 

In the lower elixir field there are two orifices, of which most people don't know. The external one is the source of yin and yang, the chamber in which congenital qi takes residence, the origin of the breathing of a fetus and acquired breathing, while the internal one is the apartment in which to halt all acquired breathing, and the source of the constant standstill to which the practitioners should come.

 

When you have brought down the qi of great unification you gathered to the lower elixir field, the false heart is close to death, and the true heart begins to appear little by little. Only when the heart of greediness has passed away, the innate nature can be offered with the chance to prevail with its pure light brightening up everywhere.

 

Breathing is something we should allow to become softer and softer.

 

Really if the breath can become soft, smooth, and full, almost to the point there is no air really moving in and out of the nose, wonderful things can arise naturally.

 

If you can use the "power" of the ears to combine with the breath, this is a wonderful attainment.

 

It can lead to the Before Heaven Breathing, or Fetal Breathing.

 

Here is something my Taoist brother composed talking about this experience:

 

This acquired breathing, after a certain length of time, will come to an end when the breath inside will never go out and breath outside never come in, which means you have recovered the breathing in your fetal state and all mysteries have come back to their common root. At the time when the breathing of fetus proceeds to come to its most ethereal phase you will perceive that no things accumulate when something comes in and no things drift away when something goes out. And you, like falling into a trance, drift away and drift away into a region of the most profound stillness in which there are no any existence and only the mind-will remains independent and constantly maintains what it is without any things to disturb it. You begin to feel the interior and the exterior have been converging to form a common body, all motion and stillness have been coming to an end, the automatic revolution along the Du- and Ren Channel has been breaking off, and the sun seems to merge with the moon. Extending to hundreds of thousands of miles, the ethereal breath of the spring seems to be accumulating into a mass, and stretching upward to the highest layer of the sky the pure air seems to be changing into one dew drop. Wonderful is this vision! Enchanting is this kind of feeling! Why? Because the yin and yang are having the most charming intercourse, and as like molten steel spray spreading out of a furnace, the precious qi of great unification is coming forth from congenital jing as does a flower burst from a bud. This process is to break through the great chaos and re-enter one realm to prepare for the creation of the true self.

 

I think the main problem is people do not know how to prepare the proper conditions internally, which will lead to a natural development.

 

The key is to know what is your job - practice technique and taking action - and what is the job of nature -

when to let go and rest in emptiness -

 

Or perhaps you can think of Alchemy as such a practice:

 

Taking action through applying concentrating.

 

Taking no action through cessation of concentration.

 

Then allowing nature to lead you.........

[alfrombrum]

Get legs crossed, the right shank located on the left (which is to see right shank inside while the left outside), place both hands in front of the lower abdomen, palms upwards, left hand below, right above, the thumb of left nestling against the forefinger. The right hand, in the same way, naturally laying above the right--which is called the yang hugging yin. Teeth lightly closed and tongue touching roof of mouth.

 

these quotes are from http://www.damo-qigong.net/step3.htm in case anyone wants to know...

[findley]

oh, thank you so much!

I have learned, with experimentation, that the dan tien can act like a bellows. I have been doing odd 'iron-shirt' packing into the lower abdominal area, (tryign to center on where i think my dantien is,) but often times I 'condense' as I am breathing out.

what happens is that, like a bellows it seems, is that the qi is pushed up, and I have been experiencing very strong winds all in my skull for a week or two now. (these qi winds are very, very consistant.) I have felt strong 'opening' experiences in up my spine, to my 6 and 7th chakras.

 

Do you think anyone could comment on what I am experiencing?

 

I also like the description of kundalini awakening very much! I met a man this weekend who explaiend to me that the a sense-deprivation tank was key (for him,), (he said I should go for 2.5 hours) and that 'yang qi' (energy) would rise up and melt everything! I would like that to happen very much...

but all I feel right now is the 'density' that comes up my spine (with awareness.) I become aware of my spine, various area's, (I am trying to open my my neck, to the pearly gates,) because that is where the 'density' is weakest..) but I have noticed in much of my practice I simply cannot stay silent! (in my head!)

 

...so maybe I really need to let go of thought noise for an hour or two, (probably best after a strong session of the 'bellows breathing' i described above, and reproduce that 'dense' energy in parts of my spine) and just abide in silence for a couple of hours?

 

gosh I hope this finally works =)

[froggie]

"You begin to feel the interior and the exterior have been converging to form a common body"

 

When i do anything significant, i experience that what i have done reflects back to me from the outside world. (pretty soon 'afterwards')

 

i think this is (at least some) part of what can happen and does happen, practically. -with reference to the above mentioned.

[exorcist_1699]

There are a lot of terms in Taoist Alchemy that seldom/ never heard in the West, and definitions of some of them are a little confused . Yet some are very important and the meanings are precise , here just mention some of them:

 

Foundation laid

External medicine (dose)

Internal medicine

Genuine earth

Magic Gateway

 

People who do not understand these terms, in fact, are still outside the threshold of Taoist practice .

Edited February 13, 2009 by exorcist_1699

[Spirit Ape]

But you have styles like Mo Pai that focus alot on dan tian and mixing yin into the Yang combining it! Maybe most Daoist Dan Tian information as what has been given is the same as most arts Dan Tian methods I know that is very basic method even in my Daoist Art.

 

Higher level Dan Tian work may have been kept secret to such a degree that only arts like Mo Pai and Thunder Path understands the Dan Tian workings higher?

 

 

Uisng Mo Pai and thunder path as an example as most people read about it!!!!

 

Ape

Edited February 13, 2009 by Spirit Ape

[Spectrum]

Foundation laid: wu ji

External medicine (dose): wei dan

Internal medicine: nei dan

Genuine earth: root

Magic Gateway: portals

[exorcist_1699]

Explaining Taoist terms, to me, is like crossing a minefield , always having the possibility of provoking something that I should not touch ....anyway, raising some questions without giving answers seems inappropriate. Below are they:

 

Foundation laid: Stop releasing jing forever.

 

External medicine: Pre-heavenly qi from outside . It also implies the possible completion of the spiritual side of our practice .

 

Internal medicine: It is the product of the intercourse between the Pre-heavenly qi and the jing in our body. That is, a fetus starts to be nourished.

 

Genuine earth : concurrence of emotions/ideas .In TCM : every organ refers to respective emotion, for example : kidney to fear ; liver to anger ; spleen (earth) is said to be in the middle , can consolidate all those emotions/ideas . Genuine earth is important for getting pre-heavenly qi .

 

Magic Gateway: It is the origin of all Taoist powers and magic. Without the open of it , all our efforts, in the end , is fruitless.

Edited February 16, 2009 by exorcist_1699

[gendao]

GREAT posts, DZ!

There are a lot of terms in Taoist Alchemy that seldom/ never heard in the West, and definitions of some of them are a little confused . Yet some are very important and the meanings are precise , here just mention some of them:

 

Foundation laid

External medicine (dose)

Internal medicine

Genuine earth

Magic Gateway

 

People who do not understand these terms, in fact, are still outside the threshold of Taoist practice .

That would be me, then...

 

So WTH do they mean, exactly?

[hagar]

To know how to properly focus on the Dan Tian, and its location is very, very important.

 

Also the Dan Tian can not be something you keep packing and storing, but there is a stage to collect, store and harvest.

 

Timing; know when enough is enough and when to move on.

 

Looking at Lower Dan Tian should be like a Gaze, or much like how the sun shines over everything -

not staring strongly.

 

With strong intention, it can cause a kind of "poison fire".

 

There are teachings about how to gaze in the Lower Elixir Field, in order to gain a stronger Water Element, which can counter any strong fire that is generated by using a strong gaze; it is not done using a "direct" route to the Dan Tian,such as gazing directly down from above, but has to be explained in person, and using some drawings to explain the location and method of gaze.

 

There really are points, and centers used in practice that are still not in the public light.

 

Most students do not understand how to use the Mind Will in the first stages properly.

 

Later after some time, we drop the gazing and listen with the power of the "ears" to the Lower Dan Tian.

 

Or perhaps it becomes as if the gaze becomes internal, and then the listening becomes internal and the two combine, also they combine with the "breath".

 

Maybe practice needs to be thought of in this regard at first when sitting as composed by my Taoist brother:

 

Some time later, when the heart has been calmed down, you should gradually close your eyes in order not to witness scenes, gaze in the lower elixir field and also let your ears hear the lower elixir field, make even the breathing in and breathing out, in order to make it as gentle and weak as possible. Of course, nasal obstruction and other disorders concerning the nose should be properly dealt with so as not to effect the breathing to a larger extent.

 

Get legs crossed, the right shank located on the left (which is to see right shank inside while the left outside), place both hands in front of the lower abdomen, palms upwards, left hand below, right above, the thumb of left nestling against the forefinger. The right hand, in the same way, naturally laying above the right--which is called the yang hugging yin. Teeth lightly closed and tongue touching roof of mouth.

 

When engaged in the practice of sitting, one should settle the mind-will in the Lower Elixir Field (the Lower Dantian or Tan Tien), which is located in the empty space below the navel in the middle place between the kidney and navel, a sphere of around 3.8 centimeters. Let the internal vision gaze upon that place. Let golden virtue begin to grow within, releasing all negative qualities and deeply relaxing the body.

 

To constantly settle mind-will in the Lower Elixir Field is the key practice for the novice.

 

From a more advanced outlook:

 

In the lower elixir field there are two orifices, of which most people don't know. The external one is the source of yin and yang, the chamber in which congenital qi takes residence, the origin of the breathing of a fetus and acquired breathing, while the internal one is the apartment in which to halt all acquired breathing, and the source of the constant standstill to which the practitioners should come.

 

When you have brought down the qi of great unification you gathered to the lower elixir field, the false heart is close to death, and the true heart begins to appear little by little. Only when the heart of greediness has passed away, the innate nature can be offered with the chance to prevail with its pure light brightening up everywhere.

 

Breathing is something we should allow to become softer and softer.

 

Really if the breath can become soft, smooth, and full, almost to the point there is no air really moving in and out of the nose, wonderful things can arise naturally.

 

If you can use the "power" of the ears to combine with the breath, this is a wonderful attainment.

 

It can lead to the Before Heaven Breathing, or Fetal Breathing.

 

Here is something my Taoist brother composed talking about this experience:

 

This acquired breathing, after a certain length of time, will come to an end when the breath inside will never go out and breath outside never come in, which means you have recovered the breathing in your fetal state and all mysteries have come back to their common root. At the time when the breathing of fetus proceeds to come to its most ethereal phase you will perceive that no things accumulate when something comes in and no things drift away when something goes out. And you, like falling into a trance, drift away and drift away into a region of the most profound stillness in which there are no any existence and only the mind-will remains independent and constantly maintains what it is without any things to disturb it. You begin to feel the interior and the exterior have been converging to form a common body, all motion and stillness have been coming to an end, the automatic revolution along the Du- and Ren Channel has been breaking off, and the sun seems to merge with the moon. Extending to hundreds of thousands of miles, the ethereal breath of the spring seems to be accumulating into a mass, and stretching upward to the highest layer of the sky the pure air seems to be changing into one dew drop. Wonderful is this vision! Enchanting is this kind of feeling! Why? Because the yin and yang are having the most charming intercourse, and as like molten steel spray spreading out of a furnace, the precious qi of great unification is coming forth from congenital jing as does a flower burst from a bud. This process is to break through the great chaos and re-enter one realm to prepare for the creation of the true self.

 

I think the main problem is people do not know how to prepare the proper conditions internally, which will lead to a natural development.

 

The key is to know what is your job - practice technique and taking action - and what is the job of nature -

when to let go and rest in emptiness -

 

Or perhaps you can think of Alchemy as such a practice:

 

Taking action through applying concentrating.

 

Taking no action through cessation of concentration.

 

Then allowing nature to lead you.........

 

Thank you the commets.

Intuitively, I see that to support my IA practice, I need to build or strengthen my earth element through some supplementary practice, or maybe diet. Any pointers?

 

Second, In all my practice sessions, I feel that there is a shift through which my focus on the LTT naturally dissolves, and aligns with a more total, non-focused, pure sitting. I feel this is a natural response.

Any comments on that?

 

h

[exorcist_1699]

deleted..

Edited April 3, 2009 by exorcist_1699

[松永道]

Dao Zhen,

 

Thank you. Your posts can really be quite moving.

 

One question, our practices have many similarities, from which texts do you primarily draw from?

 

Enjoy Qingming.