western magic

[phore]

thinking about checking out http://doloresashcroft-nowicki.com/ this persons stuff.

particularly the your unseen power course

 

what do you guys think about it

Edited July 23, 2008 by phore

[mwight]

thinking about checking out http://doloresashcroft-nowicki.com/ this persons stuff.

particularly the your unseen power course

 

what do you guys think about it

 

I have plenty of friends I know [iRL] who have dedicated their life to mastery of the "Magickal" arts, as far as I am concerned its a waste of time. I have never once seen or heard of any magickal practitioner obtaining any power by chanting, mixing herbs, casting spells, or using seals or sigils, crystals or incantations. All of it is bogus.

 

True power isn't obtained through such silliness, its obtained though extracting chi from your environment and learning how to direct, control, mold, shape, and transform it.

Edited July 23, 2008 by mwight

[Seth Ananda]

I have plenty of friends I know [iRL] who have dedicated their life to mastery of the "Magickal" arts, as far as I am concerned its a waste of time. I have never once seen or heard of any magickal practitioner obtaining any power by chanting, mixing herbs, casting spells, or using seals or sigils, crystals or incantations. All of it is bogus.

 

True power isn't obtained through such silliness, its obtained though extracting chi from your environment and learning how to direct, control, mold, shape, and transform it.

Funny. You obviously don't have much but an opinion on this subject. But to be fair to your point of view there are a lot of people simply acting out formula's hoping 'something will happen.' They usally give up in the end if they dont find their way in.

Magic changed my entire way of relating to the universe, permanently. The Energy one learns to access is enormous. One learns to strongly interact with the raw Forces and Intelligences of the Universe.

I will be Eternally grateful for my period in the Magical Tradition.

Seth.

Sat Chit Anand.

p.s. check out the Middle Pillar Exersize. what is it but a ritualized western form of the Microcosmic Orbit. it has the front, back, sides, and thrusting-middle channels. it also includes the Auric field. And is Highly charging.

[mwight]

Funny. You obviously don't have much but an opinion on this subject. But to be fair to your point of view there are a lot of people simply acting out formula's hoping 'something will happen.' They usally give up in the end if they dont find their way in.

Magic changed my entire way of relating to the universe, permanently. The Energy one learns to access is enormous. One learns to strongly interact with the raw Forces and Intelligences of the Universe.

I will be Eternally grateful for my period in the Magical Tradition.

Seth.

Sat Chit Anand.

p.s. check out the Middle Pillar Exersize. what is it but a ritualized western form of the Microcosmic Orbit. it has the front, back, sides, and thrusting-middle channels. it also includes the Auric field. And is Highly charging.

 

Seth,

 

In my cursory studies of magick it seems to have systems which revolve around incantations, seals, symbols and sigils, ritual and chanting, potions involving weird ingredients and herbs, crystals, and such. I have several pagan friends I grew up with who claim to be masters and in complete control of their environments, yet still live in their parents basement. One of my friends thinks when he perfects his next spell he can hollow out mountains to build a base for his army of undead. If he can just divinate the true nature of the seals of Solomon and beef up a little more on his necromancy skills. He is sure to do it next time!

 

 

I've never once seen or even heard of a practitioner of magick doing or accomplishing anything notable, certainly nothing on the level of John Chang, or Wang Li-ping etc. Perhaps I am just ignorant, if you have heard of such accomplished magickal masters who have attained similar levels of power, please enlighten me. It is my personal credo to learn form those who "walk the walk" and not just "talk the talk".

 

 

Qigong and Neigong have more than proven their effectiveness to me in a direct and observable manner, I can't say the same of magick. I don't hold magick in a high regard because I have never seen or experienced anything to really justify it as valid. If I did that opinion would most certainly change.

[Taoist81]

thinking about checking out http://doloresashcroft-nowicki.com/ this persons stuff.

particularly the your unseen power course

 

what do you guys think about it

 

No personal experience with the SOL. However, Dion Fortune, one of her teachers is quite renowned for her books. There are a number of options out there for the Western Tradition. www.outercol.org is one of the A.'.A.'. lineage options. There is the Builders of the Adytum, the Golden Dawn offshoots etc. As Seth alluded to, the Western Traditions simply use what look like different methods to do similar things to the asian methods. In the A.'.A.'. you are expected to study eastern and western methods of "attainment". You are then given a practice "guideline" and are assigned a teacher who has been through the same work to guide you. One advantage to Western methods is that most of the texts need little if any translation (though a teacher is still advantageous). Likewise, for many westerners the methods are absorbed much more easily than some of their asian counterparts. Do not expect to change "the world" though. The Yogic warnings of avoiding "lusting for siddhis" are as valid in the West as the East. The practices of Magick and Mysticism are fraternal twins, both "change" the microcosm, to let it realize its connection and identity with the macrocosm.

[Taoist81]

Seth,

 

In my cursory studies of magick it seems to have systems which revolve around incantations, seals, symbols and sigils, ritual and chanting, potions involving weird ingredients and herbs, crystals, and such. I have several pagan friends I grew up with who claim to be masters and in complete control of their environments, yet still live in their parents basement. One of my friends thinks when he perfects his next spell he can hollow out mountains to build a base for his army of undead. If he can just divinate the true nature of the seals of Solomon and beef up a little more on his necromancy skills. He is sure to do it next time!

 

Unfortunately there are those with delusions of grandeur in all systems. Talk to enough people involved in Asian practices, some qigong "masters" included, and you will find people who believe they can do "amazing things" with nothing more than their imagination to show for it. Magick does often involve seals, symbols, rituals etc. but the primary focus of most of the Western Mystery Tradition (not speaking for Wicca etc. here) is lifting the microcosm to the macrocosm. This is not, despite the way it may sound, something that leads to delusions of "hollowing out mountains". Even Aleister Crowley, who made some outlandish claims in his day, defined magick as ANY willed act and pointed out that "magickal results" normally take the form of natural effects. The real change is inside you.

 

I've never once seen or even heard of a practitioner of magick doing or accomplishing anything notable, certainly nothing on the level of John Chang, or Wang Li-ping etc. Perhaps I am just ignorant, if you have heard of such accomplished magickal masters who have attained similar levels of power, please enlighten me. It is my personal credo to learn form those who "walk the walk" and not just "talk the talk".

 

The few things that most people have seen any qigong or taoist masters do are as spurious as any claims of psychics. Thus far anytime a "master" has tried to use his "qi" publicly to combat a real opponent or to demonstrate their abilities in a controlled environment they have failed. Other effects that have been displayed have been easily duplicated by illusionists. Now, this is not to say that these things "can't" be done, or are being faked. It is only that the important part of any cultivation method is what happens "inside" the practitioner. If you look at these nut job televangelists they can display their "power" over individuals under their charismatic influence, but their teachings are empty on deeper evaluation. Following only those who "walk the walk" is a good credo, but basing the perception of that walk off their open display of "power" is not.

 

Qigong and Neigong have more than proven their effectiveness to me in a direct and observable manner, I can't say the same of magick. I don't hold magick in a high regard because I have never seen or experienced anything to really justify it as valid. If I did that opinion would most certainly change.

 

Proven their effectiveness how? Internally? Yeah, sure. Most if not all of us here have had "internal" experiences from qigong. Some of us have even experienced feeling another persons "qi". These things you can easily find with someone who has practiced Western Magick for at least a short while with some dedication. One issue that does arise as a difference between east/west traditions is that there are many more people who "practice" western methods (at least they claim to), that actually do no real work and just smoke pot and do a banishing ritual to call themselves wizards. Because eastern methods are often wrapped with martial arts or other specific traditions it is harder to get away with calling yourself a "qigong master" with no real training or practice. This is an advantage of participating with one of the different groups out their. The A.'.A.'. in particular doesn't pass members to a new grade until they have demonstrated their abilities through testing by the Order. They also consider accepting money for training an offense with the penalty of permanent expulsion. Some other groups have dues they charge to support temple space etc.. But for the majority of the groups your training is tested. However, the number of "practitioners" that are part of any group is far lower than the number of people who claim to practice "magick".

[orb]

Funny. You obviously don't have much but an opinion on this subject. But to be fair to your point of view there are a lot of people simply acting out formula's hoping 'something will happen.' They usally give up in the end if they dont find their way in.

Magic changed my entire way of relating to the universe, permanently. The Energy one learns to access is enormous. One learns to strongly interact with the raw Forces and Intelligences of the Universe.

I will be Eternally grateful for my period in the Magical Tradition.

Seth.

Sat Chit Anand.

p.s. check out the Middle Pillar Exersize. what is it but a ritualized western form of the Microcosmic Orbit. it has the front, back, sides, and thrusting-middle channels. it also includes the Auric field. And is Highly charging.

 

Hey Seth, besides interracting invisibly with the Universe and being eternally grateful can you do anything unusual? I would be very curious to see anything that you can demonstrate.

Thank you.

[Yoda]

Finding real traction in one's cultivation life is a huge issue regardless of the tradition. Many Taoists, Hindus, and Buddhists are stuck in the proverbial "parent's basement" level of attainment as well.

 

I recently read an article on the failings of the law of attraction that caught my eye: The LOA "ask and you shall receive" theory is to wish for something and then relax. Since desires arise automatically and relaxation is the natural state of consciousness, the whole thing pretty much runs fine on autopilot.

 

Sounds nice and works for getting a glass of water and your next inhalation, but he problem quickly becomes that nobody knows how to relax.

 

The article suggested practicing a system of magic that originated in the cultural mindset that one is born into. These traditions have learned to use the mindset of a culture to help goose the LOA process by involving images, smells, rituals, to confer a deeper sense of focus and relaxation to help achieve the desired outcome.

 

I've recently been reading an excellent magical author geared for beginners, Chris Penczak. He said that learning about the 5 elements, spell casting, angels, etc was good right at the beginning of his practice but he hit a wall in his progress. To get past that, he had to turn to shamanic trance induction techniques.

 

I like to think that the trance induction provided a deeper level of relaxation for him.

 

Yoda

 

 

~~~

 

Also, there's an excellent thread about Reiki around here that may apply towards this debate: Reiki and western spiritual and magical cultivation traditions can undervalue internal cultivation in a similar way.

[mwight]

Proven their effectiveness how?

 

Taoist81,

 

It is not my intention to brag, but I myself have developed the ability to project qi into others. I have been able to get reactions that are directly observable in other people even without them knowing I was projecting energy beforehand. Being able to accomplish this requires a deep trance of 3-4 hours minimum to attain. There is no question (at least in my mind) I am causing a direct reaction, albeit a weak one.

 

I also practice tummo and use an infrared thermometer to measure my palms temperature for biofeedback purposes. I have seen temperatures as high as 106*F after many hours of concentration.

 

Although this is less scientific, perhaps not even valid, I have challenged the strongest friend I know to punch my palm repeatedly as hard as he could, while I focused on pulling up earth/yin energy through my bare feet and concentrated it as a cushion in my palm.

Surprisingly we kept going until his knuckles were bleeding, at that point I still felt no pain.

 

I continuously conduct such tests any time I have the opportunity, in order to measure my progress.

 

Some interesting video's for you:

 

madoDvtKEes

 

R-wuOYlxMSY

[Jedi777]

Study Franz Bardon and you will learn what you need.

http://www.amazon.com/Initiation-into-Herm...0824&sr=8-1

 

http://www.amazon.com/Frabato-Magician-Fra...0883&sr=8-3

 

Study Franz Bardon and you will learn what you need.

http://www.amazon.com/Initiation-into-Herm...0824&sr=8-1

 

http://www.amazon.com/Frabato-Magician-Fra...0883&sr=8-3

[Taoist81]

Taoist81,

 

It is not my intention to brag, but I myself have developed the ability to project qi into others. I have been able to get reactions that are directly observable in other people even without them knowing I was projecting energy beforehand. Being able to accomplish this requires a deep trance of 3-4 hours minimum to attain. There is no question (at least in my mind) I am causing a direct reaction, albeit a weak one.

 

I also practice tummo and use an infrared thermometer to measure my palms temperature for biofeedback purposes. I have seen temperatures as high as 106*F after many hours of concentration.

 

Although this is less scientific, perhaps not even valid, I have challenged the strongest friend I know to punch my palm repeatedly as hard as he could, while I focused on pulling up earth/yin energy through my bare feet and concentrated it as a cushion in my palm.

Surprisingly we kept going until his knuckles were bleeding, at that point I still felt no pain.

 

I continuously conduct such tests any time I have the opportunity, in order to measure my progress.

 

Some interesting video's for you:

 

madoDvtKEes

 

R-wuOYlxMSY

No, comment on the videos, here at work youtube doesn't work, maybe later. As for your personal testing.. What "reactions" do you mean? Again, many of us here have the experience of having others "feel what we are doing" without telling them what we are doing (in many cases without 3-4 hrs trances it is worth saying). Drew claims his "o's at a d" regularly, others among the posters here have experienced causing orgasms or other reactions without physically "doing anything". At the same time, without a controlled setting, none of it is "proof" of anything. Not that that makes it invalid or any less of a "neat experience". If you mean healing, you could ask any number of western practitioners who have "caused healing" through an invocation or prayer or through the use of a talisman. Again, without controls...could be a lot of coincidences. Your example of your friend and the punches, is not surprising, but also not exactly comparable. Western traditions tend to not be associated with martial techniques (which is what this example is at its root), so there is not a tit for tat way to compare. It is also likely that anyone who you might be able to "test" for this from a western tradition would have learned things from eastern practices as well, further clouding what was causing the results. There are examples of meditations in most if not all esoteric traditions in which you will feel and/or detect heat (or cold) in he hands or other body parts.

Bottom line, you can get diverse results from any number of systems. Most traditions have at some point in time adopted practices from other systems and lent practices to other systems. They all (or at least most of them) work with subtle "energies" they simply use different methods and use different languages/symbols.

[gendao]

I've recently been reading an excellent magical author geared for beginners, Chris Penczak. He said that learning about the 5 elements, spell casting, angels, etc was good right at the beginning of his practice but he hit a wall in his progress. To get past that, he had to turn to shamanic trance induction techniques.

Interesting, I just skimmed through a preview of his. A lot of the stuff he says about spiritual entities there seems to be on the mark.

 

However, as you say, he is obviously not limited to just "Western Magick," but has expanded well beyond those boundaries into the far wider New Age scene with many other traditions as a whole.

 

I think I personally never got into Magick because it mostly appeared to revolve around casting spells to manifest all sorts of worldy desires and "imposing your will upon others." Love spells, etc. Just seemed kinda trite and "egotistical." Nothing really wrong with all that I guess, but just seemed to stop there with fewer higher ambitions.

 

Now as far as its efficacy, don't know about that, either? Was Aleister Crowley ever able to actually accomplish anything substantive?

 

Bottom line is, proof is in the pudding. And if I like the taste of your pudding first, then I'll be interested in your recipe..

[Taoist81]

I think I personally never got into Magick because it mostly appeared to revolve around casting spells to manifest all sorts of worldy desires and "imposing your will upon others." Love spells, etc. Just seemed kinda trite and "egotistical." Nothing really wrong with all that I guess, but just seemed to stop there with fewer higher ambitions.

This is likely the common reason that most people become interested in Magick, and likewise, likely why most fail or drop it. None of these were goals through the Golden Dawn, A.'.A.'. or most of the other Orders that defined Western Magick in recent years. Rather it was often said that things like the above lead one on a path to "destruction", and not the good kind.

 

Now as far as its efficacy, don't know about that, either? Was Aleister Crowley ever able to actually accomplish anything substantive?

 

Bottom line is, proof is in the pudding. And if I like the taste of your pudding first, then I'll be interested in your recipe..

What do you mean "substantive"? He often wrote that people should not rely on his or anyone elses accomplishments, but to drop anything that did not, when done properly, work for them.

[Aetherous]

Was Aleister Crowley ever able to actually accomplish anything substantive?

 

I read an article where someone asked Aleister to show them real magick. He said he couldn't do much, except he did show the guy something...they were walking behind someone and Crowley matched their footsteps, and tripped...the guy in front of them tripped and AC quickly went over to help him up.

 

So apparently all he could really do was that...

 

He did perform the Abramelin thing, and apparently was successful in contacting his HGA. That's where the Book of the Law (I think?) came from...he was just transcribing what the HGA said to him...and apparently with that system you learn how to summon demons and control them, making them do magical things for you.

 

The house that Stairway to Heaven was written in was once owned by Crowley, where he unsuccessfully performed the Abramelin ritual. He left like halfway through and apparently it's supremely haunted...a few people have committed suicide in there.

 

But did Crowley gain power over demons, and was he able to make them perform supernatural acts? I don't think so.

[Prince...]

Scotty, that's kinda scary!

 

I know very little on the subject of Magick, but I found The Magus of Strovolos to be a great read on Christian Mysticism. According to the teacher in the book, Christ was an Essene (something I have heard before) who practiced a form of mysticism that was taught to his disciples and passed down secretly because it was suppressed by the Church (naturally). Many of the methods originated from Tibet, I believe.

 

The book was interesting to me as it talked about reincarnation, karma, the Noetic and Psychonoetic realms. It was interesting to me to hear Christianity discussed in ways that sounded very Eastern.

 

I wish I could give more information on the book and the teacher. He has since passed away and his daughter distributes his teachings. I am visiting my mom in Atlanta and everything is bookmarked on my PC back in Tennessee. I can post some links if anyone is interested in checking them out when I get home next week.

[Sahaj Nath]

thinking that my dsl line was back up and stable, i proceeded to write a long post on this subject.

 

then i hit send, only to find that the line was down again.

 

 

 

 

 

whatevs.

 

 

i shall try again, only shorter this time.

 

 

 

 

everyone is right, to an extent. western magick is both a weak waste of time AND a very powerful transformative practice. it really depends on the knowledge, commitment, and maturity of the practitioner, PLUS the strength of the magickal community they plug into. seldom do solitary magicians get very far, unless they achieved a high level in a magickal order and then left the order so they could go deeper.

 

once upon a time, i was a member of the Ordo Templi Orientis. had lots of fun with them. learned a lot about symbolism and sacred geometry. but in the end i became disillusioned all western traditions because of them.

 

very intelligent. masters of symbolism (which makes sense, given that they have a masonic structure). but the spend more time figuring out clever concepts than they do cultivating. make no mistake, real western practitioners DO cultivate. the banishing and invoking rituals are powerful. the middle pillar exercise is powerful. the high rituals are crazy-powerful if you've done the preliminary work. the problem, the way i see it, is that the importance of daily, consistent practice isn't emphasized nearly enough, and discussion about the energy isn't really dealt with at all. so i read a lot of books, and i practiced the lesser banishing rituals of the pentegram, and my energy attainment increased. but that was about it, and many other members of the order, who were of higher grades, didn't even achieve the little bit that i had. strong theorists, all of them, but terrible work ethics when it came down to practice. they were a pretentious bunch that had something bad to say about every other tradition, and they could win most any debate on the occult, but they were severely lacking in real ability. when i left i challenged them to a magick contest and told them that i could get better results with wiccan spellwork (wicca was a running joke among them) than they could with all of their elaborate rituals. there were no takers.

 

the demon evocation rituals (the lesser keys of solomon) were a thing i never played with, and i'm glad about that. not because the demons were too dangerous (that's what made it so seductive), but because i lacked the maturity to understand the nature of the rituals. the demons are ourselves. isolated fragments of ourselves, like if i were to seperate just my lust or just my anger and have a dialog with it (this is a gross simplification, but it gets the point across). with enough prior cultivation, a magician can make these energy expressions visible.

 

i didn't fully understand the purpose of the rituals, other than to control demons. i didn't realize that we employ the same principle in psychotherapy when we learn to embrace the disassociated parts of ourselves. Genpo Roshi's Big Mind Process operates on a very similar principle, but is much safer psychologically, and much more real-world in its application. but the goal is still the same; to acknowledge, embrace, and properly organize all facets of our being to function smoothly and in the service of The One.

 

crowley was very powerful, but you have to remember that he wasn't training so he could do parlor tricks; he was training so he could achieve complete union with the Tao. realization. that's the Great Work. to that end, any and all means necessary is fair game, even bloodshed. and all other motives, no matter how seemingly benign, is black magick. he was able to conjure a ball of light in a pyramid in cairo that was so bright, he was able to read from it. with the incident that scotty mentioned, he didn't just put his walk in sync with the man in front of him, he put his entire being in sync with him. he embodied the other man, and in doing so, was able to influence him physically. there's a real lesson to be learned there if you think about it. it's a crucible in magickal training.

 

i have a ton more to say, but i gotta go. maybe more later.

 

[Pero]

I read an article where someone asked Aleister to show them real magick. He said he couldn't do much, except he did show the guy something...they were walking behind someone and Crowley matched their footsteps, and tripped...the guy in front of them tripped and AC quickly went over to help him up.

 

Meh, that's children's play for Freeform.

 

This reminded me of an interesting comment made by Ross Jeffries. One time he was having lunch with Richard Bandler (co-founder of NLP) and he mentioned something about NLP being similar to magick, and Bandler replied "of course it is, I made it that way", or something like that.

[phore]

thank you for all of the replys

 

i personally have seen many new age magic books, and have known many people who practice this kind of magic

i am also familiar with the law of attraction.

 

Most people practice this stuff because its popular. Ive never met anyone else who i honestly believe knows the secret of magic (in real life ive met a few on the internet).

the secret is love. all of the rituals, symbols, spells, and affirmations in the world are powerless without it. With love the external form of magic becomes unimportant.

 

there are only two emotions in the universe: love and fear. all other emotions are based in either love and fear.

 

The way to overcome fear is simple: fill yourself with love. just be in awe, be thankful for the entire universe, even the deepest fear has no power when exposed to this.

 

once you have transformed your inner world, the outer world will follow. if you want something specific you can just fill yourself with love then ask for it and be thankful for it as if it were already there. then once you have asked express your gratitude then let it go. It will manifest.

 

if you want an example of this kind of love watch: ah! my goddess and pay attention to belldandy. jesus works well too.

 

for a taoist practice: smile

 

peace

Edited July 23, 2008 by phore

[cloud recluse]

Have succesfully manifested desperately needed cash via Chaos Magick on a number of occasions now . But only the required amounts at the last moment .

 

Doesnt seem to work when I try out of greed though. Not a moral observation, I just havent been able to pull off any big luxurious haul for its own sake

 

I tend to have unusually good luck anyhow in regards to necessities, & the Chaos stuff seems to somehow 'amplify' this when needed .

 

I wouldnt expect practical 'success' with the Kabbalistic-Golden Dawn-Crowley stuff, which seems to be focused towards religio-mystical experience anyhow , not worldly gain .

 

And mystical experience wont get you 'out' of anywhere , be it your parents basement or wherever . Nor should it.

[Jedi777]

thinking that my dsl line was back up and stable, i proceeded to write a long post on this subject.

 

then i hit send, only to find that the line was down again.

 

whatevs.

i shall try again, only shorter this time.

everyone is right, to an extent. western magick is both a weak waste of time AND a very powerful transformative practice. it really depends on the knowledge, commitment, and maturity of the practitioner, PLUS the strength of the magickal community they plug into. seldom do solitary magicians get very far, unless they achieved a high level in a magickal order and then left the order so they could go deeper.

 

once upon a time, i was a member of the Ordo Templi Orientis. had lots of fun with them. learned a lot about symbolism and sacred geometry. but in the end i became disillusioned all western traditions because of them.

 

very intelligent. masters of symbolism (which makes sense, given that they have a masonic structure). but the spend more time figuring out clever concepts than they do cultivating. make no mistake, real western practitioners DO cultivate. the banishing and invoking rituals are powerful. the middle pillar exercise is powerful. the high rituals are crazy-powerful if you've done the preliminary work. the problem, the way i see it, is that the importance of daily, consistent practice isn't emphasized nearly enough, and discussion about the energy isn't really dealt with at all. so i read a lot of books, and i practiced the lesser banishing rituals of the pentegram, and my energy attainment increased. but that was about it, and many other members of the order, who were of higher grades, didn't even achieve the little bit that i had. strong theorists, all of them, but terrible work ethics when it came down to practice. they were a pretentious bunch that had something bad to say about every other tradition, and they could win most any debate on the occult, but they were severely lacking in real ability. when i left i challenged them to a magick contest and told them that i could get better results with wiccan spellwork (wicca was a running joke among them) than they could with all of their elaborate rituals. there were no takers.

 

the demon evocation rituals (the lesser keys of solomon) were a thing i never played with, and i'm glad about that. not because the demons were too dangerous (that's what made it so seductive), but because i lacked the maturity to understand the nature of the rituals. the demons are ourselves. isolated fragments of ourselves, like if i were to seperate just my lust or just my anger and have a dialog with it (this is a gross simplification, but it gets the point across). with enough prior cultivation, a magician can make these energy expressions visible.

 

i didn't fully understand the purpose of the rituals, other than to control demons. i didn't realize that we employ the same principle in psychotherapy when we learn to embrace the disassociated parts of ourselves. Genpo Roshi's Big Mind Process operates on a very similar principle, but is much safer psychologically, and much more real-world in its application. but the goal is still the same; to acknowledge, embrace, and properly organize all facets of our being to function smoothly and in the service of The One.

 

crowley was very powerful, but you have to remember that he wasn't training so he could do parlor tricks; he was training so he could achieve complete union with the Tao. realization. that's the Great Work. to that end, any and all means necessary is fair game, even bloodshed. and all other motives, no matter how seemingly benign, is black magick. he was able to conjure a ball of light in a pyramid in cairo that was so bright, he was able to read from it. with the incident that scotty mentioned, he didn't just put his walk in sync with the man in front of him, he put his entire being in sync with him. he embodied the other man, and in doing so, was able to influence him physically. there's a real lesson to be learned there if you think about it. it's a crucible in magickal training.

 

i have a ton more to say, but i gotta go. maybe more later.

 

 

Fantastic post Hundun I have a back ground and exp kind of like you

Yes AC was very powerful and high level. I agree with you on the folks who claim to be magicians dont do much practice--but i love it

Edited July 24, 2008 by Jedi777

[Seth Ananda]

Thanks Phore, Thanks HunDun, and thanks Mwight. its an entertaining thread. HunDun I love how you write, you expressed that stuff well. Mwight, unfortantly i agree with you about a large majority of western magick practitioners. Self absorbed, delusional, uncommitted loonys. I know some real gems in the field but there the exception not the rule. I have been with several groups too, and the politics is astounding. In my experience the Crowlian systems seem to attract even an even lower common denominator than the others. I think its part of that desire to be a Magical BaddAss thing. I have met so many 'Evil Black Magicians' that cant Fight/Cast/or Pay their way out of a wet paper bag. They couldn't even get up off the couch and walk out of one. Its just not funny.

At the same time there are the hyper disciplined Tunnel vision'd semi Delusional's. At least they practice and some of them can do stuff with reasonable reliability. But if you met them you'd be glad your a Cultivator and not them.

I Left these groups and stopped most of the practices for the same reasons others here stated, also went towards the deeper trance/shamanic stuff afterwards.

As for the things I still use. I just love Elemental Rituals and perform them weekly. They make me feel a sense of oneness with the world and I am friends with the Elements. It is not a relationship of command but friendship. I can ask them for favors sometimes, Like having it rain or storm and they happily oblige. Its great in desert regions during droughts.

I helped cure a man years ago who was HIV+ with Middle pillar, Invocations and banishings. His doctor was speechless and Then pronounced it a case of miss diagnosis (over years of constant blood tests )

I used middle pillar and demonic evocation to cure myself of Ross-river Fever in a night. Its supossed to be incurable.

It doesnt really matter i guess, Ive done and experienced many things in this field but no one has to believe anything.

I still use Sigils sometimes, only for big stuff, and find it great for lining up 'Events'

I Totally agree with whoever said that love is the key to making much of it work. If your standing in a circle calling on an element, in this nasal voice: "i call upon the watchtowers of the north..." with no actual love for the element, why would it come? I certainly wouldnt. But ill visit my friends.

Seth.

Sat Chit Anand!

[mwight]

As for your personal testing.. What "reactions" do you mean? Again, many of us here have the experience of having others "feel what we are doing" without telling them what we are doing (in many cases without 3-4 hrs trances it is worth saying). .................... At the same time, without a controlled setting, none of it is "proof" of anything. Not that that makes it invalid or any less of a "neat experience". .................... Again, without controls...could be a lot of coincidences.

 

Taoist81,

 

I'm really not here to argue or prove myself to you or anyone else here. I was really just trying to answer your original question of how neigong had proven itself valid to me. Talk is cheap, I realize that, and hopefully one day I can develop to a level to pass scientific scrutiny like J.Chang or Wim Hof etc.

 

You asked me about the reactions I got, I have preformed this projection test well in excess of 20 times, and each time I get an immediate and direct response in my subject. I usually attempt my experiments either when I am staying at a friends house for the night or they are staying at my house. In both cases we are usually in the same room, and the guest gets the couch. I usually meditate doing 3 breaths per minute or less for over 4 hours before attempting to project my chi into them. I am very calm and still making no noise whatsoever.

 

When I am staying the night at their house, usually both my friend and his girlfriend sleep on their bed in the living room (efficiency apt), and I stay on the couch adjacent from them. When I project the chi it is as if it is an extension or an extra appendage and it has full tactile sensory ability. I can watch either subject sit strait up from a deep sleep, and scream. I usually play dumb and say are you ok. "whats wrong"? I usually get a response like they had a nightmare where a cold hand was inside them or something similar. I can wait two or three more hours and repeat the same experiment with the girlfriend with similar results, every time within seconds of the projection.

 

Like I said I've repeated this same experiment many times over, and had immediate response. I realize this isn't scientific nor is it conclusive proof, but for me there is no question. I am dedicated to achieving ascension in this lifetime, I intend to or die trying.

Edited July 24, 2008 by mwight

[witch]

Hmmm....

 

I stay away from the Golden Dawn and Aleister Crowley and all that, I guess I shouldn't be commenting on being a magician. I guess I'd make a distinction in the term "magic," or "magick" if you're going to be, well, whatever that is.

 

There are three sorts of western magic, witches, magicians, and a third kind. They all use the word "magic" so it can get confusing. I don't know about ceremonial magicians, but I know to be an effective witch a woman must work with time. Everything is in the timing of things.

 

Witches generally aren't interested in the same things as magicians, mostly just health, wealth and love and growing green things, taking care of little ones. Protection too, when necessary. And daily luck. That's about it. Demon power, immortality, controlling others--those are eighth house things, not fourth house things. Ceremonial magic is about control, witchcraft is about obedience.

 

I was drawn to witchcraft from pure pragmatism, precisely because it does work, and not just in some microcosmic way.

[Pero]

Meh, that's children's play for Freeform.

 

This reminded me of an interesting comment made by Ross Jeffries. One time he was having lunch with Richard Bandler (co-founder of NLP) and he mentioned something about NLP being similar to magick, and Bandler replied "of course it is, I made it that way", or something like that.

 

The irony is, that according Israel Regardie, hypnosis is the most despicable form of black magick...

 

I stay away from the Golden Dawn and Aleister Crowley and all that, I guess I shouldn't be commenting on being a magician. I guess I'd make a distinction in the term "magic," or "magick" if you're going to be, well, whatever that is.

 

Well I read Crowley made this distinction, magick being the real stuff (which he did) and magic being stage magic. It's not in the dictionary though.

[Patrick Brown]

Real magic is to do with the mind and manipulating peoples conciousness.

 

Chi is real and therefore falls into the realms of phenomena. I like the playful cuddly dragons and avoid the wrathful ones. Messing with Chi is said by some to be magic but I call it folly. Gentle movements are fine when you forget yourself.

 

Twenty-eight:

Know the strength of man,

But keep a woman's care!

Be the stream of the universe!

Being the stream of the universe,

Ever true and unswerving,

Become as a little child once more.

Know the white,

But keep the black!

Be an example to the world!

Being an example to the world,

Ever true and unwavering,

Return to the infinite.

 

Know honor,

Yet keep humility.

Be the valley of the universe!

Being the valley of the universe,

Ever true and resourceful,

Return to the state of the uncarved block.

 

When the block is carved, it becomes useful.

When the sage uses it, he becomes the ruler.

Thus, "A great tailor cuts little."

 

 

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