Yiquan, Stance Training, Standing Meditation

[Prince...]

I know Pranaman has been practicing Yiquan with his Taiji, as have I. I have been doing the 8 postures (Zhuan Zhang?) for about 2 months now. My plan is to work up to standing in each posture for 5 minutes, but right now I am only up to 1:30. Anyway, this week, I noticed that by the time I get to the 6th posture, that my legs start to shake. By the time I get to the 7th posture, the tremor spreads to my trunk and arms as well. These tremors last throughout the remainder of my standing which I always conclude by rubbing the Dantien region.

 

I would ask my friend who is teaching me about this, but I am out of town at the moment;when I get back in town, he will be competing in a tournament in Baltimore, so I will not see him for the next 2-3 weeks.

 

The reason that these tremors have me worried is because I suffer from Essential Tremor-- meaning I have tremors on my own! My ET is mostly just in my head and usually only occur when I am extremely stressed, fatigued, or overly anxious about something. Also, when my tremors start up from ET, they don't just go away just from standing still, I normally have to sleep them off. Also, these tremors don't seem to hurt like my others do.

 

I just thought I would ask. It was suggested to me by a Qigong teacher that I drop Praying Mantis, which I was studying, because it would not help me deal with tremors. I think there were other contributing factors to the tremors emerging before that I won't discuss here.

 

Oh well, if this is a sign that I'm not doing something right, I'm open to some criticism. I'm just trynna improve my kungfu and do whatever I can until I find a teacher.

[Aetherous]

In my opinion, they're nothing to worry about. It means your channels are opening up. Just relax more in the postures, and the shaking will subside in time.

[Prince...]

cool beans, thanks Scotty!

[Pranaman]

yeah don't even worry about it. It'll get to a point in class when 8 or so of us are all tremoring together just from the health stance. The heat gets SO intense, I also heard that the pain tends to transform into something that isn't perceived as negative.

[yatzhong]

Hello Prince,

 

First off, it's called zhan zhuang not zhuang zhang.

 

As for the shaking & trembling it is something that happens to everyone. It is also the most important time to hold the posture ( zhuang ) as this is when the changes occur in the body. The tendon changing, bone marrow washing and other benefits derived from standing are realized when one perseveres through the trembling.

 

Unless you are extremely weak I would say that standing in eight postures for a minute and a half each is a waste of time. There are lots of benefits to be reaped from standing but you won't get them unless you are standing correctly for at least an hour a day.

 

Second, just because one is standing in eight different postures does not mean that one is practicing yiquan. Zhan zhuang is common to taijiquan, hsingyiquan, baguazhang, shaolin quan and other systems. Also there are more than a standard eight postures that people in yiquan practice. I think that the eight were made popular by the book "The Tao of Yiquan" but there is no set of eight standard postures.

 

Third, if you want to add a standing regimen to your practice I would say try and find a qualified teacher. There are a lot of little details in the practice and if they aren't adhered to it could make your efforts a waste of time.

 

I'm not trying to be mean or come of as a "know it all" Prince. Yiquan has been my main practice for many years now and I've seen countless peoples' attempts at standing practice yield little or nothing because they've never learned how to do it properly. Like any other practice there are regulations that must be observed and little intricacies in each posture that ultimately decide if one is going to get the benefits or not. Just standing in a posture with the weight evenly distributed over the two feet and holding the arms in a certain formation is not going to do it.

 

John

[Prince...]

[yatzhong]

Might I inquire about the school in New Mexico and the instructor's name?

 

I know or know of most of the qualified yiquan instructors in the US but never

heard of anyone in New Mexico.

 

If one does the standing in a certain way it will open up the meridians eventually.

If all one does is stand there relaxed then there isn't much to be gained at all really.

 

If you are too weak to do the standing for more than a minute or so in each posture then

I would suggest learning some of the sitting meditations from yiquan which can help get

the legs healthy.

 

 

John

Edited July 24, 2008 by yatzhong

[Prince...]

Dug Corpolongo in Albuquerque. He does not teach Yiquan, just the Zhan Zhuang. His Yiquan came from Henry Look. http://www.lotusdragon.com/index.htm

 

Also, could you use another phrase other than "too weak to do the standing?" I know this is the internet and you have no way of knowing anything about me, but physically I'm one of the fittest people I know. I do have a bit of an impairment from time to time (ET), but I still manage to workout with kettelbells 3 times a week and dabble in wingchun/wushu/taiji everyday.

 

When I first started lifting kettlebells, I didn't grab the 24kg and go to work. I had to start with the 12kg to learn what to do so that I didn't hurt myself. This is just the way I approach things, that's all.

 

Next week, I will tack on 15 seconds and stand for 1:45 in each stance. I assumed everyone did it this way as I read the other day a guy suggesting to someone to add 2 seconds to their standing every day, so that by 6 months, they would be up to an hour of standing. At least my method is a bit faster!

 

To me, this is like learning to swim. I don't have a swim coach or a teacher, just a big brother who has been swimming for awhile to make sure I don't drown. So I have to start with kicking from the side of the pool until I'm comfortable with the water, whereas someone else might dive right into the water. In the end, all that matters is that we're swimming, right?

Edited July 24, 2008 by Prince...

[Pranaman]

my teacher(Gregory Fong) who learned from Yu Yong Nian, a student of Master Wang Xiangzhai(founder of yiquan), as well as learning from Master Wang Xiangzhai's daughter, teaches us to only stand for twenty minutes, if you can. Later he will tell us to do more, but also he makes the young students stand with the feet at about a leg's length apart with hips almost knee height. He can stay low like that for five hours. I'm sure he wants us to build up to longer times.

[Spectrum]

Edited July 24, 2008 by Spectrum

[Spectrum]

my teacher(Gregory Fong) who learned from Yu Yong Nian, a student of Master Wang Xiangzhai(founder of yiquan), as well as learning from Master Wang Xiangzhai's daughter, teaches us to only stand for twenty minutes, if you can. Later he will tell us to do more, but also he makes the young students stand with the feet at about a leg's length apart with hips almost knee height. He can stay low like that for five hours. I'm sure he wants us to build up to longer times.

 

To bad you can't pay with sweat.

[yatzhong]

Dug Corpolongo in Albuquerque. He does not teach Yiquan, just the Zhan Zhuang. His Yiquan came from Henry Look. http://www.lotusdragon.com/index.htm

 

Also, could you use another phrase other than "too weak to do the standing?" I know this is the internet and you have no way of knowing anything about me, but physically I'm one of the fittest people I know. I do have a bit of an impairment from time to time (ET), but I still manage to workout with kettelbells 3 times a week and dabble in wingchun/wushu/taiji everyday.

 

When I first started lifting kettlebells, I didn't grab the 24kg and go to work. I had to start with the 12kg to learn what to do so that I didn't hurt myself. This is just the way I approach things, that's all.

 

Next week, I will tack on 15 seconds and stand for 1:45 in each stance. I assumed everyone did it this way as I read the other day a guy suggesting to someone to add 2 seconds to their standing every day, so that by 6 months, they would be up to an hour of standing. At least my method is a bit faster!

 

To me, this is like learning to swim. I don't have a swim coach or a teacher, just a big brother who has been swimming for awhile to make sure I don't drown. So I have to start with kicking from the side of the pool until I'm comfortable with the water, whereas someone else might dive right into the water. In the end, all that matters is that we're swimming, right?

 

OK, I know "sifu Dug" and also know Henry Look. My teacher is Look's senior under master Han.

 

As for "too weak to do the standing" goes if you're as fit as you say then there's no reason you can't do an hour or more. You are either weak in the legs or weak in the willpower department. I know it's hard to do zhan zhuang alone but that's why it's called kung fu. You have to push yourself in order to get results.

 

If you're doing the standing properly you don't need kettle bells. In fact they just might be counter productive to the results you're trying to get from standing. They are definitely going to be counter productive to your taiji practice. Zhan zhuang done properly builds up the tendons and joints so that one's underlying frame becomes tight like a piece of steel while keeping the muscles relaxed.

 

Nevertheless, good luck with your training.

 

John

[Prince...]

As for "too weak to do the standing" goes if you're as fit as you say then there's no reason you can't do an hour or more. You are either weak in the legs or weak in the willpower department. I know it's hard to do zhan zhuang alone but that's why it's called kung fu. You have to push yourself in order to get results.

 

I think you're trynna challenge me. I can stand for an hour, but I can't hold the postures for that long... my shoulders get extremely tired...from doing kettelbells. Brian says the muscles are too heavy for the joints, so I'd just have to take my time getting my joints to that point.

 

Tomorrow I will set my timer for 5 minutes each posture and see how it goes, but I am gonna have to rest in the Wu Ji posture when my shoulders get sore.

 

I'll tell you how it goes.

[WhiteTiger]

Brian says the muscles are too heavy for the joints, so I'd just have to take my time getting my joints to that point.

 

And Brian would most likely be right. The biggest thing i try to advocate to people (even though i'm not a teacher just realizing theres a important piece to the puzzle missing) is that weight lifting at least the way they add on weight in gym circles in the western world in todays ages (most not all) don't allow the density of the bones to become strong enough for the size of the muscles, (although that might not be the biggest of peoples problems...) more importantly tendons, fluid in the joints and many other bodily adjustments need to happen. Although its great stress relief and most likely makes you feel better (and if not your doing something WRONG!) but there is a lot more to the nakid eye and the modern age of gym weight lifting today.

 

External martial artists do external trainning but in the end they also get make connections with the internal later in way more advanced stages. Yes its a different method in doing things but its only different not any worse. Now I do advocate also that External should be understood properly and Internal is not "BETTER" then Internal martial arts. But for me i perfer Internal martial arts (whom would have known hehe, the way i talk about external martial arts so passionately)

 

editing to ask, yatzhong a question (instead of making a new post)

 

yatzhong, are they're any pretty damn good (Very good Teacher or Master in ability) teachers in CA accepting with opened door teachings, you would be willing to drop there name for Yiquan? And if not very good teachers, how about good? Please feel free to send me a PM. I'm definately very interested in learning more about it.

Edited July 25, 2008 by WhiteTiger

[Prince...]

Weeeeellllll....if I'm not mistaken, Sifu Henry Look might be somewhere close by you.

[Prince...]

Okay, so I took the 5 minute challenge. It was intense! My t-shirt is damp, I don't think I have ever started sweating doing standing training. I did have to cheat, though. I listened to Feng Shui music on my iPod

 

I had to stand another 5 minutes when I finished to let all the tremors work themselves out! I wish that I had remembered to bring my iPod charger with me, though. I'm out of town until Sunday.

 

But yeah, I think instead of waking up at 5 a.m. for my kettlebell class, I would rather wake up and do kungfu when I get back...I'm still gonna work out with KB's, though. I have my own at home, but no heavy lifting-- I just want to drop about 20 lbs and get down to 160.

[Spectrum]

It's not cheating to use your mind. The body is music.

[yatzhong]

I think you're trynna challenge me. I can stand for an hour, but I can't hold the postures for that long... my shoulders get extremely tired...from doing kettelbells. Brian says the muscles are too heavy for the joints, so I'd just have to take my time getting my joints to that point.

 

Tomorrow I will set my timer for 5 minutes each posture and see how it goes, but I am gonna have to rest in the Wu Ji posture when my shoulders get sore.

 

I'll tell you how it goes.

 

Right. I am challenging you. IPOD music is ok but your mind shouldn't get bored when you do standing. There are all kinds of things to do. There are small movements, visualizations, stretches, twisting, etc. that one is supposed to be doing while doing basic standing. The sweating is good. If you can bear through the shaking you should sweat profusely in the beginning. It shows that you are working hard and something is going on inside the body.

 

Once you can stand longer and persevere through the thundering of the legs you will get something out of your standing besides just meditating.

 

Keep up the good work.

 

 

John

[Spectrum]

I like music for moving forms, natural sounds or silence for stillness.

 

Awareness of natural motion entrains natural motions. Walking through the sensory realm during stillness meditation is natural as the body remembers what is real and what is illusion and begins the relaxation response to the work. As long as the mind is engaged is letting go of dialog and walks through the 5 senses resulting either in synthenasia or subject object dissolution the rest matters not. This is not a state of dissassociation, but one of super-association. Get out of your head and the body will make sense of it.

 

Turtles draw inwards, Cranes take flight.

 

Listen to the way wind walks through trees

Watch ways trees bend and sway

Feel the same earth under stays

For you and I to wander upon and pray

We rise up to fall upon wonder and play

Edited July 27, 2008 by Spectrum

[WhiteTiger]

Been searching through the internet on Henry Look. Found out he seems to be a lineage holder and there seems to be a bunch of students under him currently that also teach but didn't find any information about him living or openly teaching in the Bay area... this seems like decent advice and i thank you but so far my research for looking at him (about an hours worth) I have not found anything but stories about him and his students students talk about him.

 

Is there more information you could give me about Henry look or someone else you mind mentioning that is seems more avaliable (I'm still on the search for Henry look once again... did not stop my endeavors not until i find at least the information about his current events and if he teaches anymore)

[Prince...]

My friend, Brian, told me a few weeks ago that he knows some people in the Bay area. Unfortunately he is in Baltimore competing in a tournament and visiting family. His school does Hsing-Yi, Yang style Taiji, and White Crane, with the standing from Yiquan, but I remember him saying something about friends that do mostly Yiquan in the Bay area and Sacramento. I will talk to him as soon as I see him, which is usually about 3 days out of the week, but we're both out of town right now!

 

There are small movements, visualizations, stretches, twisting, etc. that one is supposed to be doing while doing basic standing. The sweating is good. If you can bear through the shaking you should sweat profusely in the beginning.

 

Brian mentioned something about visualizations, but he did not say much about them. I'm going home in the morning and I should have a week to practice. I'll tell him I'm standing for 45 minutes and see if he wants to show me the other stuff or wait until I have a bit more practice. He is with Sifu Dug at that tournament, so I'm hoping he is getting some good info to pass on to our small group in Nashville!

[Gerard]

Unless you are extremely weak I would say that standing in eight postures for a minute and a half each is a waste of time. There are lots of benefits to be reaped from standing but you won't get them unless you are standing correctly for at least an hour a day.

 

This is another myth. In Qigong the more is not better, the less is better as long as it is properly executed: correct alignment, intent (yi), and more importantly 100% relaxation.

 

There is a point of diminishing return where the practitioner will be regressing at a continuous rate for each additional input level, and ultimately reaching "internal burnout". This is extremely dangerous as internal burn-out is a mix of both external and internal fatigue.

 

BK Frantzis intelligently discusses this concept in his books. A very smart westerner who grasped the underlying idea of the Taoist energetic arts.

[Wun Yuen Gong]

Why not do more with proper intent and structure??

[Gerard]

Why not do more with proper intent and structure??

 

 

If you are a beginner yes, but there will be a point of diminishing return later on.

 

Once you have a strong root then you can move on. Go with the form.

 

Santishi is a good stading posture if you are aiming at the Internal Arts:

 

 

Right at the end.

 

 

Sorry, I should have explained myself a bit better.

Edited July 27, 2008 by durkhrod chogori

[yatzhong]

Been searching through the internet on Henry Look. Found out he seems to be a lineage holder and there seems to be a bunch of students under him currently that also teach but didn't find any information about him living or openly teaching in the Bay area... this seems like decent advice and i thank you but so far my research for looking at him (about an hours worth) I have not found anything but stories about him and his students students talk about him.

 

Is there more information you could give me about Henry look or someone else you mind mentioning that is seems more avaliable (I'm still on the search for Henry look once again... did not stop my endeavors not until i find at least the information about his current events and if he teaches anymore)

 

Try this.

 

Henry Look

P.O. Box 2378

Shingle Springs, CA 95682

(530) 677-0900

[email protected]

Hsing I Chuan

Pa Kua Chang

Kuang Ping Tai Chi

Chi Kung

I Chuan

 

He's getting up there in years but he might still be teaching.

 

Personally I wouldn't study with him given the opportunity. I know several of his classmates under master Kuo and master Han and can't find one of them that has a good thing to say about him. According to his classmates he is not a lineage holder in Kuang Ping taiji. He didn't learn the entire Kuang Ping system. He also only studied yiquan on a few occasions with master Han when Han was here in the US or when Look visited Hong Kong. I also know someone who studied diligently with him for three years and had no skill to show for it.

 

You'd probably do better seeking out Fong Ha.

 

But good luck either way.

 

 

John