i don't care what anyone says about NLP

[Pranaman]

timeline therapy is awesome. One limiting belief brought me to tears. One belief I want to have brought me to bliss. A perfect way to start the day i'd say with intentions, motivations, and priorities straightened out.

Edited July 25, 2008 by Pranaman

[phore]

nlp=neuro linguistic progremming (for anyone who didnt know)

 

When most people are talking about this they are speaking of people who use nlp to manipulate others into doing what they want. basically they are focusing on the shadow side of nlp. just as an example: people would use this to trick people into buying expensive things that they dont need.

 

im sure there isnt a single person here who has a problem with the way you use it.

 

its basically the difference between brainwashing and self hypnosis.

Edited July 25, 2008 by phore

[Taomeow]

nlp=neuro linguistic progremming (for anyone who didnt know)

 

When most people are talking about this they are speaking of people who use nlp to manipulate others into doing what they want. basically they are focusing on the shadow side of nlp. just as an example: people would use this to trick people into buying expensive things that they dont need.

 

im sure there isnt a single person here who has a problem with the way you use it.

 

its basically the difference between brainwashing and self hypnosis.

I don't like NLP because it doesn't concern itself with the only question I want answered:

not "whether" something works,

and not "how" it works,

but WHY it works. NLP assumes it doesn't matter. To me, it's the only thing that matters.

[phore]

I don't like NLP because it doesn't concern itself with the only question I want answered:

not "whether" something works,

and not "how" it works,

but WHY it works. NLP assumes it doesn't matter. To me, it's the only thing that matters.

 

nlp supposes that thoughts and forms of comunication come from subconcious patterns. nlp asks questions and allows you to view the patterns. when you can view these patterns you can identify erroneous ones. these erroneous patterns are usually called neurosis by psychlogists, and illusions by buddhists. when you can view these patterns you can change them.

 

the reason most people cant change themselves is because they attack the manifestation of the neurosis instead of the neurosis itself. it is like trying to kill a weed by attacking the surface of the weed. you must pluck up the roots of the weed for any real change to occur.

 

any erroneous pattern is one that is based in fear. love dissolves fear.

 

true love conquers all.

[Taomeow]

nlp supposes that thoughts and forms of comunication come from subconcious patterns. nlp asks questions and allows you to view the patterns. when you can view these patterns you can identify erroneous ones. these erroneous patterns are usually called neurosis by psychlogists, and illusions by buddhists. when you can view these patterns you can change them.

 

the reason most people cant change themselves is because they attack the manifestation of the neurosis instead of the neurosis itself. it is like trying to kill a weed by attacking the surface of the weed. you must pluck up the roots of the weed for any real change to occur.

 

any erroneous pattern is one that is based in fear. love dissolves fear.

 

true love conquers all.

 

Key word "subconscious." I don't want anything in me to be subconscious, I am after systemic consciousness. If you see the pattern but don't see WHY you have it, you can't remove it. Not with NLP, not with anything short of consciousness. All you can do is f... with its surface, exchange this pattern for that: alcoholism for born-again religious sentiment, fear for counterphobic behaviors (which mean fear is still there but you got a better handle on hiding it not just from others but from yourself -- pushing it deeper, where it will do somatic damage), craziness of the mind for craziness of the cellular functions, and so on. True love conquers all, I agree... key word "true." Do you know what true love is? Consciously? Systemically? Tip: it's not in the mind, not in the body, not in the heart...

[phore]

you use the questions in nlp to make unconscious patterns conscious.

thats what i meant by viewing the patterns.

 

basically the questions guide your conscious into deeper parts of your mind that you were not paying attention to.

once you are conscious of the root of the problem you can change it

 

i believe we are both trying to say the same thing

 

im inclined to say that love ,consciousness, and the tao are all the same thing. but i would love to hear your answer

Edited July 26, 2008 by phore

[Taomeow]

you use the questions in nlp to make unconscious patterns conscious.

thats what i meant by viewing the patterns.

 

basically the questions guide your conscious into deeper parts of your mind that you were not paying attention to.

once you are conscious of the root of the problem you can change it

 

i believe we are both trying to say the same thing

 

im inclined to say that love ,consciousness, and the tao are all the same thing. but i would love to hear your answer

I've studied NLP. To my knowledge, it never concerns itself with memory, let alone unconscious, repressed memory. What use is asking a question if the answer is held by the early you who didn't have the language yet, didn't even have a fully developed neocortex?.. And most answers to the "why" question are smack there, in the pre-verbal, formative past that shaped 95% of who you are today.

 

Love, consciousness, and the tao are all the same thing -- you're right -- and this thing is called memory. No continuity in your memory, no love, consciousness, or tao. (I mean a generic "you," not you personally.) That's what the sages mean when they say that in the human world tao has been destroyed. We have gaps in our memory, and whatever is going on there unbeknown to us, sealed away in the "unconscious," is not consciousness, not love, and not tao.

 

Not just NLP but any other modality that seeks to bypass these gaps one way or the other is, to me, a useless pursuit. The Way is what goes smack into them and through them. You have to connect to yourself in order to be whole -- not an imaginary "self" of this or that religion or philosophy but the live human child who really, really existed. Know him or her -- and you know everything. Don't know him or her -- and it's anybody's guess what the neocortex (which wasn't there to begin with when those developmental things were happening to you that it's now speculating about with such confidence) -- neocortex the perjurer, the false witness who wasn't there! -- might cook up to fill in the blanks. But the only real way to fill in those blank is to fill them in with you, the real earlier you -- the part you don't remember. That's what the "unconscious" is made of, and the only way to become conscious is to remember. Memory is everything, everything is memory...

[phore]

unlike you i have not studied nlp. i just knew the basic theory and an example of the practice and it sounded exactly like a practice that i use that i just made up.

 

the practice is to take some thing and ask questions (why was the question i used almost all the time) relentlessly until you have made an unconscious pattern conscious. sometimes the answer would come immediately, sometimes it would come hours later. remembering is a good word. ive used this to dissolve complexes and neuroses. i have also used this to understand the nature of the physical universe. to describe it as memory never occured to me before, but it definitely fits.

 

judging by this conversation our practices in this area are very similar. how did you learn yours.

[Pranaman]

what do you all think of hypnosis for uncovering the unconscious?

[Patrick Brown]

Thanks Taomeow, great clarity.

[松永道]

I'm temporarily hooked on these Darren Brown videos. Amazing stuff. In addition to verbal suggestion he does a lot of touching and hand gestures that are obviously very similar to qigong. To anyone trained in the stuff - what does the hypnotist feel when doing a physical induction technique?

 

I'd like to get a better sense of how much of qigong is hypnosis and how much of hypnosis is qigong. It's amazing after reading through the comments on youtube (ie getting familiar with the lowest common denominator) that hypnotism is such an accepted phenomenon. People are so quick to shout "placebo" or "hypnosis" as if these are well understood scientific facts, while indeed, western science doesn't really understand either one. Taomeow put it well, we know the what and how, but what about the why?

 

Is hypnosis just qigong with a different motive?

[Patrick Brown]

I'm temporarily hooked on these Darren Brown videos. Amazing stuff. In addition to verbal suggestion he does a lot of touching and hand gestures that are obviously very similar to qigong.

Derren is pretty famous here in the UK and has been around for quite a while. I periodically return to watch him on youtube because I enjoy the 'how he did it' videos. After a while you begin to realise that government leaders, advertising and business people (salesmen) are all using NLP to a greater or lesser extent. Hey NLP is just a name for something that's been around for ever and is really all about 'f**king with peoples heads'.

 

Derren tells us that only a third of people are susceptible but I have read that given enough time anyone can have their heads messed with. It's my opinion that the whole of modern society is just one big mind job used to keep us enslaved and confused. I also think people like the Buddha and Christ break through this conditioning and realise what's going on. I mean the common term for the daily listings for TV shows is 'programming'! The education system is also about 'programming'. The key is to realise there is no duality.

[Seth Ananda]

Good for you Pranaman! If your getting good stuff out of it, go for it. It must be frustrating to have Emphasized that you are practicing the Healing side of N.L.P. not the Sales/persuasion engineering side. They are light years apart. One makes you slowly become a nicer person through releasing the crap, the other makes you try to seem like a nicer person but actually usually come off like an obnoxious prat! If you don't know how the techniques work, I agree you are susceptible to a skilled user, but once you know they start to look rather funny and then its your turn to mess with them. I worked in a shop with a massive N.L.P. section and had many people in from their $1000+ dollar n.l.p. business courses, and they would try all kinds of things to get a discount on their purchases. I used to love just flatly refusing and then pretty much acting like they had offended me some how Poor bastards would huddle back together, discuss a new plan of attack and fail again. Some of them left in a nearly hysterical state as their new super technique obviously wasn't working.

anyway enough about me, Good for you Pranaman.

Seth.

Sat Chit Anand

[phore]

what do you all think of hypnosis for uncovering the unconscious?

 

the key to entering hypnosis is to enter a trance.

trance uses theta brain waves, associated with heightened visualization, dream states, and shamanic voyages, and deep meditation.

 

the trance can be useful for connecting with the unconscious. it usually speaks in symbolic language though.

[freeform]

.

Edited December 18, 2019 by freeform

[sheng zhen]

Yesterday at work a colleague came up to me: "I'm really angry" - he was looking to me to ask "Why?" so that he could tell his story... I, however, felt mischievous so I asked "How long do you think you'll feel this way?" - he stared at me blankly for a good long while (this would be called a 'pattern interupt' in nlp) - so I said "have you stopped feeling angry already?" he said "yes" - I said "cool - see you later"

Hahaha, to not react according to peoples needs is great entertaiment

[freeform]

.

Edited December 18, 2019 by freeform

[sheng zhen]

 

actually, I did react to his need, but on a level he didn't realise he needed help at...

 

entertainment and the resolution of his anger and the tension he was having with another colleague were just the side-effects of me having attended to the present for a bit (I'm by no means this good normally! lol)

I know, thats what I mean.

 

To react differently just to react differently is more close to psychosis, but to react differently according to the deeper levels, thats fun!

[freeform]

.

Edited December 18, 2019 by freeform

[Janus]

Edited July 26, 2008 by Janus

[Taomeow]

Freeform,

 

my methods also interrupt the pattern but in a different way and for a different purpose. The last thing I want to know is the "story" on the surface. "Why are you angry?" is not what I want answered off the top of anyone's head, because the top of anyone's head is the shallow part, whatever floats there is driven by something way deeper... I don't care about the splinter floating on the surface of the ocean -- a surface feeling expressed with surface words. I want to know what the ocean is like. "Stop being angry," however, is not what I want to accomplish when I interrupt the pattern.

"Stop feeling whatever you're feeling and start feeling something else" -- equally superficial and equally unconscious -- is not what I'm after. This is about as useful as removing the splinter from the surface of the ocean and thinking you've taken care of the pollution problem the ocean is suffering from. This splinter, OK, you interrupt the pattern of telling its story and it doesn't matter anymore, but what about the next one and the next one, and what about that false-rainbow oil spill -- there's a spot, and there's another, and there's some dead seagulls with oil stuck to their wings... a few hundred thousand of them in fact... and what about the lower-than-normal oxygenation of the water only an inch deeper, and what about its temperature that is three degrees higher than normal, and what about the death of several thousand species of ocean creatures that used to live here, and what about the mutations of the ones that still do, and what about the shrinking vegetation all along the shore, the relentless erosion, and what about that volcano at the bottom, what about that tsunami brewing deep down -- what about the destiny of this ocean, this person?..

 

Of course I didn't expect you to be concerned with that when you didn't let your colleague tell the "story," but if he was not your colleague but you -- and not for purposes of "right now" but for purposes of mastering your destiny --

 

wouldn't you really like to know?.. The kind of "why" I mean is the kind of "why" that lets you know that, but just directly asking it is useless, no real answers can be scooped up from the surface. It's... you need to dive, and when you see -- actually see with your two eyes -- the erupting volcano on the bottom, and feel the shock wave that throws and tumbles you, and feel the heat and see the magnificent fury --

 

that's when you get a spontaneous "that's why": that's why there's a tsunami. That's why. And if instead of the volcano you see a HAARP earthquake machine, you get a different "that's why": that's why there's a tsunami! And if instead of this, you see Poseidon stirring the water with his trident in divine anger caused by the Exxon oil spill, and he tells you, "I'm gonna get you for this, bastards" -- that's another kind of "that's why": that's why there's a tsunami! So... whatever is really going on deep inside -- not deep inside the mind, deep inside your personal history! -- deep inside "what really happened to you!" -- that's the source of a spontaneous answer to the "why" question -- that, and not the asking of the question. That's what I meant...