Is The Official History of Kunlun's Origin Bogus?

[Aetherous]

Xeno, I didn't mean to offend you, I meant to help you see that you're full of it.

[Patrick Brown]

Time for some light relief?

 

[mjjbecker]

Time for some light relief?

 

 

Marvellous. Thank you.

[Patrick Brown]

Marvellous. Thank you.

My mum swears I'm an angel but others just think I'm a bit of a fairy!

[xenolith]

Blessings to all.

 

No more from me will this thread see.

[Sunya]

Blessings to all.

 

No more from me will this thread see.

 

 

Xeno,

 

people don't take kindly to having their beliefs questioned.. these people like Scotty have invested much time, effort, and money to convince themselves that what they are doing is 'right' and 'legit' and that they will somehow benefit from it. to question that is to question the very foundation of their identity. what you're doing is indeed spiritual, but they aren't ready. let them play

[SiliconValley]

Blessings to all.

 

No more from me will this thread see.

 

 

Hang around Buddy... it's always fun to have someone asking questions, especially the sane ones like you do...

and No, I am not being sarcastic.

Edited August 1, 2008 by SiliconValley

[Aetherous]

people don't take kindly to having their beliefs questioned.. these people like Scotty have invested much time, effort, and money to convince themselves that what they are doing is 'right' and 'legit' and that they will somehow benefit from it. to question that is to question the very foundation of their identity. what you're doing is indeed spiritual, but they aren't ready. let them play

 

3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

 

Matthew 7:3-5

[Sunya]

i don't care to remove the speck in your eye. like i said, keep playing. lol

 

its just amusing to see you boys get so defensive

[rain]

Edited August 1, 2008 by rain

[Sahaj Nath]

Edited August 1, 2008 by Hundun

[h.uriahr]

I've heard good things and bad things about Max. Does Max really have any idea of what he's doing or teaching?

[Patrick Brown]

I didn't say a fucking word, as far as I know, Max has lovely hands.

 

 

 

 

And feet,

 

 

 

 

apparently!

 

 

 

[rain]

 

f chrst sake man

Edited September 1, 2008 by rain

[Jakara]

With All Respect To Kunluners, I have been hearing a lot of chatter about how Max really re-branded several different practices he learned as kunlun.

 

Jenny lambs Spontaneous adjustment chi kung, and andrew lum for red phoenix, as well as others.

 

Any thoughts? If this turns out to be true, maybe kunlun was just a flash in the pan?

 

 

I'd like to add a reply here to Mwight's original question. The posts as usual have strayed slightly since the original question.

 

Not so long ago I asked a similar question but concerning the scientific aspects of Max's claims. A few of us objected to the outrageousness of what was being put forward as scientific explanations of why his system works. Since then the website making the claims has been edited and almost all references to the shoddy science have been removed. Except, of course, for one sentence with a "disclaimer" suggesting that science is at fault for not yet being able to explain such a system.

 

False claims have been made and verified to be false, and when confronted they are simply removed. Max has used a technique outlined here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fashionable_Nonsense called fashionable nonsense where one tries to blind followers into believing with something beyond their understanding.

Here are the main points:

• Using scientific or pseudoscientific terminology without bothering much about what these words mean.
  
• Importing concepts from the natural sciences into the humanities without the slightest justification, and without providing any rationale for their use.
  
• Displaying superficial erudition by shamelessly throwing around technical terms where they are irrelevant, presumably to impress and intimidate the non-specialist reader.
  
• Manipulating words and phrases that are, in fact, meaningless. Self-assurance on topics far beyond the competence of the author and exploiting the prestige of science to give discourses a veneer of rigor.
  

These points are also relevent when it comes to making claims about a system's origin or teachers. Name dropping techniques about lineages and mountain ranges, claims of miraculous events like light emanations which have yet to be displayed publicly.

 

When all this is combined with the fact the Max is making money from this system from seminars and books the red warning lights go on to say the least. There are some that say "try the techniques though, they really work". But that is not verification. Well known qi-gong techniques can be thrown together to induce feelings when practiced, but that's no substitue for a full system of enlightenment.

 

I'd therefore say you are right to stear well clear. As a wise person once said:

 

"Belief rarely comes from evidence, belief is based on motivation."

 

Check out Derren Brown's "Instant Conversion" on how easy it is to manipulate those wanting to believe:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Sq-YUdq1OI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DylNVUN_3I...feature=related

 

Before I get jumped on by 50 kunluners id like to point out that im just re-iterating facts, except for the parts where I explicitly state "I" in the sentence, as in thats my personal opinion. No offence is intended to any person.

[Patrick Brown]

To be honest I don't care any more! I mean I'm not going to learn Kunlun so why should I care? Yes some may feel that's it's their moral duty to point out certain discrepancies but I've personally had my fill of those arguments.

 

Is Kunlun bogus? Well probably.

 

Is the modern world bogus? Well almost certainly!

 

So what's more important Max and his contrived Kunlun system or the world we live in? For those that have bought the whole Kulun thing all I can say is good luck.

[Sahaj Nath]

jakara,

 

here's the thing: except for the "not a substitute for a full system of enlightenment" statement, i agree with you.

 

enlightenment doesn't, and never did, belong to any 'gatekeepers' with whom we must align ourselves in order to be granted access. and that has probably never been more true than it is today.

 

 

one of my guys just got here, so i don't have time to really get into it, but as a former critic of max & crew, and as someone who has been to a workshop:

 

i don't think it qualifies as a 'full system' of anything, but i don't think it has to.

 

i think some of the bogus science and bogus claims reveal an insecurity moreso than a malicious intent.

 

as has been said a ton of times, they really don't make a lot of money, especially given how many people are in their group, so it's a really terrible scheme if that were the objective.

 

nothing you've stated takes away from the value of the practice or the transmission, even if their credibility is shaky.

 

i wouldn't allow myself to practice it because of all my problems with the info and the presentation, and that didn't serve but to show me all the places where i clung to my rational brain and need for control/reason, and how that held me back.

 

being a believer is not at all required. being open to what is offered does not necessitate intellectual agreement or even consistency (or honesty, for that matter) on the part of the messenger.

 

gotta go. maybe i can expand on some of this later when i have time.

 

[CosmoGeek]

Jakara,

 

I enjoyed your post. You explain very eloquently why the "red flags" go off.

 

Hundun,

 

What you wrote is interesting. Are you suggesting that Max's followers intentionally made Kunlun appear to be bogus? Perhaps to screen out people with well-developed reasoning skills?

[SiliconValley]

jakara,

 

nothing you've stated takes away from the value of the practice or the transmission, even if their credibility is shaky.

 

or even consistency (or honesty, for that matter) on the part of the messenger.

 

 

 

 

This question is not really aimed at Kunlun or Kunluners but is a general one. Now transmission is energy and if this transmission is from some person who is not honest or has shady credibility, would someone want it at all? If a technique, especially the one involving transmission and stuff, were to be taken from such a source, would it really help one in cultivation? Is Dharma and moral of no real implication to cultivation? Or is is it that it does not matter when the objective of the technique is not really "spiritual" or aimed at serious cultivation and something to do with "enlightenment" [whatever that means].

 

Something like a Yogasana or Pilates would work just fine if learnt right, irrespective of who it got from. But transmission [i assume that would be some kind of Diksha or Sahktipata] inherently involves energy exchange, even if it is channeled. Now, if the one who transmits has some serious credibility issues, energy from such a person would transmit mala [dirt or impurity] instead of actually destroying it. It is yet another theory that a person with some serious malas can never real transmit Shakti but can indeed do Prana which causes a lot of issues to the receiver. Masters warn about receiving mantras from such Gurus which angers the Yoginis of that mantra stream.

 

I am just trying to think loud and understand if technique should be separated from the sources: intermediate and original, their influence on the way the technique is transmitted etc. and how Dharma or morality fits in here.

Edited September 2, 2008 by SiliconValley

[Spirit Ape]

Wow!!

 

Just watched that clip talk about Shawbrothers movie? Is this guy for real i was kind of embarrassed that the students are so easy controlled and carrying on the way they do.

 

So how many on this forum are his students?

 

Spirit Ape

[Cameron]

I think questioning things is very important. Nobody should blindly follow a system or teacher. In the case of Kunlun, my feeling is it might be a good system and it might not. It's like rolling the dice. I think the people around the system have good intentions and appear to be honest but can't say from experience if it's something people should dedicate themselves to.

 

At this point, after a year with Kunlun, I would be very hesitant to reccommend the practice to other's. That doesn't mean it might not be a fantastic practice for some. But I would be wary to promote the practice.

 

I know the feeling I am looking for because I would reccommend stillness meditation to other's in a second. Such practices as taught in Zen or that Bill Bodri reccommends I think have a sort of universal benefit.

 

In any case, I wish the Kunluners the best of luck in their practice.

 

Cam

[Spirit Ape]

Cameron,

 

Interesting so you are a Kunlun practitioner but wouldnt reconmend it? Or you was a Kunlun practitioner and no longer do it and are doing Zazen?

 

thankyou

Spirit Ape

[Cameron]

Yes, I spent the last year doing Kunlun.

 

I wouldn't reccommend it or NOT reccommend it. I guess you could say I am Kunlun neutral.

 

The best I can come up with at this time is it may be a fantastic practice for some and not for other's.

 

I would be very interested in reading Taomeows review that she just started as she has been at this whole Taoist thing for quite some time. She is someone who I would say has a broad body of knowledge to really give good feedback on the practice and transmission.

 

For myself, at this time, the practice is too, too ungrounded or unabalanced. That may change. But I feel it's time for an extended break and return to stillness meditation. Which I consider absolutely safe and would reccommend to anyone.

 

*waiting to read the rest of Taomeows Kunlun workshop review*

[phore]

Ok i think we all know where we stand. Only one thing to do now.

 

Lets take it out back and settle it like real men.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmxT21uFRwM

[Aetherous]

I do kunlun and I'm kind of feeling the same way as Cam. Although I am still going to practice. My stance on it is: I am seeing where it takes me.

 

But I love it.