taoists and karma

[Pranaman]

Is it just me, or does it seem like the taoist view isn't too concerned with karma, and more concerned with efficiency and effectiveness. Also considering sometimes taoists would promote eating free-range white meat.

[findley]

I think that the idea of past-life karma is ridiculous.

As far as I know, Taoist philosophy or mysticism does not address such an idea.

 

My own personal, pragmatic interpretation of Karma is such: the 'blocks' in your systems that prevent you from being a Buddha.

[WhiteTiger]

Is it just me, or does it seem like the taoist view isn't too concerned with karma, and more concerned with efficiency and effectiveness. Also considering sometimes taoists would promote eating free-range white meat.

 

Yes it believes in Karma... No I don't claim to know exactly how it works nor can i teach it. Although i know some principles it follows... I would ask someone that would know *thinks of two people in his head that could answer, but purposely does not name there names*

 

 

I think that the idea of past-life karma is ridiculous.

As far as I know, Taoist philosophy or mysticism does not address such an idea.

 

My own personal, pragmatic interpretation of Karma is such: the 'blocks' in your systems that prevent you from being a Buddha.

 

I would never doubt something i don't know... thats what i've learned specially in martial arts. Don't understand a move... one example would be... DON'T SAY ANYTHING IN FRONT OF A CLASS ABOUT HOW YOU DON'T SEE HOW THERE IS MARTIAL ASPECTS IN THAT MOVE. It kinda goes along with anything else you don't know... otherwise its just ego arising or not knowing enough information. Which is your goal to search for.

 

I personally know a Buddhist martial artist told me not to worry about such things. I personally believe his word. I believe its similar in Taoist practice, at least thats what we practiced when i was being educated in taoism from a practicing complete reality taoist (not a master). You work on where you are at and the idea is no matter were you are at all it takes is effort to fix the problems... the bigger the problem the more effort but thats just your situation, or the reality of your life.

 

As far as I know, Taoist philosophy or mysticism does not address such an idea.

 

 

I think your right Taoism is not concerned in the way some Buddhism talks about it. (i'm not claiming to know for a fact) But that doesn't mean there isn't a reason for it.

 

My own personal, pragmatic interpretation of Karma is such: the 'blocks' in your systems that prevent you from being a Buddha.

 

Very Buddhist way of thinking (At least to my understanding)

Edited July 29, 2008 by WhiteTiger

[phore]

karma is basically like momentum that propels people through life. kind of like how a person can believe in one religion his whole life without questioning it would be an example of someone who lives according to karma.

 

conciousness dissolves karma. karma is how you live when you are unconscious. when you are conscious you can live according to your higher purpose instead of how you were conditioned (in this life or the last) to live.

 

Fate is something that happens to you unconsciously (karma)

Destiny is the outcome that you choose consciously(enlightenment)

 

Edit karma is the ego

Edited July 29, 2008 by phore

[exorcist_1699]

Taoism does emphasize karma .

 

Without some kind of karma in the past, no matter how miserable your present life is , you never think of searching for and then come across Taoism . Even you do come across it , you never understand it . Even you understand it, you never confide in it to the extent of a very powerful force that can solve the fundamental ( or ontological) issues of your life.

 

This is the reason why so many educated , very smart guys laugh at Taoism when they are told about the Taoist truth of immortality and free of aging.

Edited July 30, 2008 by exorcist_1699

[WhiteTiger]

Taoism does emphasize karma .

 

Without some kind of karma in the past, no matter how miserable your present life is , you never think of searching for and then come across Taoism . Even you do come across it , you never understand it . Even you understand it, you never confide in it to the extent of a very powerful force that can solve the fundamental ( or ontological) issues of your life.

 

This is the reason why so many educated , very smart guys laugh at Taoism when they are told about the Taoist truth of immortality and free of aging.

 

Very well said but only people that understand the specific reference your making will have some sort of understanding of what your saying.

 

The only actual hints you give is Taoist truth of immortality and free of aging.

[Ben D]

[Taomeow]

Of course taoism is concerned with karma, but understands it differently from Hinduism (or Buddhism). Let me illustrate... In some Magical Taoism traditions, e.g., it is assumed that odds in life are stacked against winning, just like they are in any chance-based game. You are much more likely to lose than win at lottery, blackjack, or the roulette. There's much more poor people than wealthy ones, unwell than perfectly healthy, depressed than euphoric. You are more likely to be unjustly incarcerated than accidentally released from prison. You are more likely to get in an accident and get hurt than to accidentally tap into special healing powers, or even become an ER physician for that matter. (An ER is a place where the odds are as visible as at a casino: two healthy, wealthy doctors per two hundred hurt patients who are about to go broke on top of, and because of, having been hurt -- and every day it's like that! That's karma: make a wrong move -- and the next move is going to be wrong too. Make a right move -- and chances are the next one will still be wrong. That's because we've made so many moves against the flow already that the flow itself is stirred up, turbulent. When I used to do a lot of Chinese astrological charts, I have never, ever seen a single one that was problem-free and "lucky" without any if's and but's.

 

But let me illustrate with a lighter example. The neighbors' fat black cat started coming to our door for extra food on a daily basis, but never let me or my son (who inherited benevolence toward cats from me) stroke him, pet him, play with him, or get him to accept the invitation of the open door. The cat would meow for food, in a demanding tone of voice, get it, and leave. Next time you see him, he won't even acknowledge you. All getting, no giving. OK, fine. So eventually we got ourselves a little kitten. The cutest thing in the world, playful, smart, stunning, all the good things a nine-week-old kitten can be. The neighbors' cat saw him through the window! Got agitated, came running to our door, meowing, let me in, I want to play! Stood in the doorway behind the screen, begging, purring, rolling on the ground... I've repented, he seemed to say, I'll do anything -- just don't turn away from me now! So my son comes to the door, looks the cat square in the eye, and tells him, "Well, who needs YOU now?!" I was in awe when I saw my own kid act as karma...

'cause that's how karma acts, it's important to understand that karma doesn't merely "work," it "acts," it has free will -- but no special agenda to be "good to everybody at all times," far from it...

[exorcist_1699]

Very well said but only people that understand the specific reference your making will have some sort of understanding of what your saying.

 

The only actual hints you give is Taoist truth of immortality and free of aging.

 

 

I am the only stupid , stubborn guy on this forum who repeatedly mention these two issues (immortality and free of aging) ; maybe others are more interested in gaining supernatural power or opening the 3rd eye through their practice , however, I have to ask : What purposes of your cultivation if it is unable to solve these fundamental ones ?

 

Taoism is the most "arrogant" system in this world for it declares straight that after having mastered Tao and qi , we can overcome the destiny imposed on us by nature ( In fact , it is just the " post-heaven " nature which most people blindly think that they have thousands of reasons succumb to )

Edited July 31, 2008 by exorcist_1699

[WhiteTiger]

Of course taoism is concerned with karma, but understands it differently from Hinduism (or Buddhism). Let me illustrate... In some Magical Taoism traditions, e.g., it is assumed that odds in life are stacked against winning, just like they are in any chance-based game. You are much more likely to lose than win at lottery, blackjack, or the roulette. There's much more poor people than wealthy ones, unwell than perfectly healthy, depressed than euphoric. You are more likely to be unjustly incarcerated than accidentally released from prison. You are more likely to get in an accident and get hurt than to accidentally tap into special healing powers, or even become an ER physician for that matter. (An ER is a place where the odds are as visible as at a casino: two healthy, wealthy doctors per two hundred hurt patients who are about to go broke on top of, and because of, having been hurt -- and every day it's like that! That's karma: make a wrong move -- and the next move is going to be wrong too. Make a right move -- and chances are the next one will still be wrong. That's because we've made so many moves against the flow already that the flow itself is stirred up, turbulent. When I used to do a lot of Chinese astrological charts, I have never, ever seen a single one that was problem-free and "lucky" without any if's and but's.

 

But let me illustrate with a lighter example. The neighbors' fat black cat started coming to our door for extra food on a daily basis, but never let me or my son (who inherited benevolence toward cats from me) stroke him, pet him, play with him, or get him to accept the invitation of the open door. The cat would meow for food, in a demanding tone of voice, get it, and leave. Next time you see him, he won't even acknowledge you. All getting, no giving. OK, fine. So eventually we got ourselves a little kitten. The cutest thing in the world, playful, smart, stunning, all the good things a nine-week-old kitten can be. The neighbors' cat saw him through the window! Got agitated, came running to our door, meowing, let me in, I want to play! Stood in the doorway behind the screen, begging, purring, rolling on the ground... I've repented, he seemed to say, I'll do anything -- just don't turn away from me now! So my son comes to the door, looks the cat square in the eye, and tells him, "Well, who needs YOU now?!" I was in awe when I saw my own kid act as karma...

'cause that's how karma acts, it's important to understand that karma doesn't merely "work," it "acts," it has free will -- but no special agenda to be "good to everybody at all times," far from it...

 

BORING! I got what you said but BORING... as if my opinion mattered... You can explain Karma better than that with getting into more detail of how it works.

 

Did not learn one thing you said.

 

After reading that post no new doors opened.

 

I would expect better than that TM. I already understand because...

TM + Helping me = 0!

Although...

TM + Helping others = ∞

 

I am the only stupid , stubborn guy on this forum who repeatedly mention these two issues (immortality and free of aging) ; maybe others are more interested in gaining supernatural power or opening the 3rd eye through their practice , however, I have to ask : What purposes of your cultivation if it is unable to solve these fundamental ones ?

 

Taoism is the most "arrogant" system in this world for it declares straight that after having mastered Tao and qi , we can overcome the destiny imposed on us by nature ( In fact , it is just the " post-heaven " nature which most people blindly think that they have thousands of reasons succumb to )

 

Very well said once again.

 

Applaud

 

P.S. exorcist_1699 I think you might have taken my comment the wrong way. All I was pointing out is you said what you had to say in a way that wasn't very helpful for other people to learn. Thats all... I'm not being sarcastic in any of my posts... I enjoyed the two posts you posted. They were well stated and true. Taking about the exact interests of mine but I have an inability to explain lots of what I've noticed and learned. While you seem to know what you know... hehe hope that isn't to taoist of a saying for you.

Edited July 31, 2008 by WhiteTiger

[exorcist_1699]

To : White Tiger

 

 

Thanks a lot for your understanding . In fact , I only translate what I learn from the Chinese Taoist writings into

English . Of course , I do have some practice , otherwise, I dare not so firmly preach something that is incorrect and may lead others to disaster.

[Gerard]

I think that the idea of past-life karma is ridiculous.

As far as I know, Taoist philosophy or mysticism does not address such an idea.

 

My own personal, pragmatic interpretation of Karma is such: the 'blocks' in your systems that prevent you from being a Buddha.

 

NO! Be careful, Read this:

 

http://www.thebigview.com/buddhism/karma.html

 

Karma = balance and justice. Every time we alter the natural course of phenomena using either of the three karmic causes, body, speech and mind, we are creating karma (either good or bad), and we will undergo an effect as a result.

 

Nirvana is an eternal state of being where Karma and Samsara have ceased.

[Taomeow]

WT, I never promised to make my every post entertaining. If I did, I'd gain some bad karma by boring you. But since I didn't, you've gained some by being rude for no good reason. Calling people names for no good reason and without any provocation always results in some additional karmic load. Boring but true.

 

You want me to tackle karma with heavier guns? In my tradition, they are so heavy I'm reluctant to talk about it here. OK, I'll mention one thing to you to give you a taste of what it's like.

 

In addition to personal karma, humans have earned permanent "generic," species-specific karma by doing what they've been doing the past few thousand years. This manifests as three monsters that get trapped inside the human body when we're born, known as the Three Worms or the Three Skulls. They reside in the head, in the torso, and in the abdomen, respectively. Their goal is to shorten the human life, because the host's death is the only way they can get released and return to their place of origin, eternity (unless they are dealing with a skilled cultivator, holy man/woman, sage, or sorcerer/sorceress of considerable power). So they prompt the human to do all sorts of bad things. Not only that, but on certain specific dates they report to the Jade Emperor and other gods on the misconduct of the host, acting as provocateurs and snitches. They hope their reports would cause the wrath of the gods who might then shorten the life of the guilty individual, terminating it sooner than was originally intended. At the same time, unwise, unwholesome behaviors of the host resulting from the Worms' provocations are also shortening the host's life while darkening his or her karma.

 

This belief is shared by all authentic taoist sects, to my knowledge, and various methods have been devised for ridding the live body and mind of the Worms. Abstaining from grains, one such practice, is aimed at starving them, since they grow fatter off grains specifically. (I do believe this shows original taoists knew that agriculture was the human species' undoing, the worst curse in the guise of a blessing. Hunter-gatherers didn't accumulate any karma -- and didn't eat any grains. Growing crops means the beginning of the kind of interference tao can't tolerate -- everything else that follows, follows thence.)

 

Still boring?.. Or am I getting at something you might be interested in exploring further?.. If the former... sorry. If the latter... sorry again, you'll have to find other sources -- I am forbidden, for the moment, from teaching anybody anything, and that's one reason you don't feel I"m being helpful to you. Another one is, you are in the habit of being rude to me in the same post where you include compliments -- perhaps to make rudeness easier to swallow? Well, my friend, I actually need neither. Please do me a favor and stick to the point if you will, not to my personality, d'accord?..

Edited July 31, 2008 by Taomeow

[jeffgrove]

Tao gives birth to one

One gives birth to two

Two gives birth to three

Three gives birth to the 10000 things (Emanations?)

 

karma changes the mind stream like ripples on a pond

[exorcist_1699]

There are three possibilities that lead people to Taoist truth of immortality :

 

1) Wisdom : You are very intelligent , one out of ten thousands. You always have some insight on life that other smart guys do not have .

 

or

 

2) Your previous karma : you finished half or part of your cultivation in past life; in that case , soon after your coming to adolescence in this life , you always sense something you know you have not completed . And, later in your life , no matter how pretty a wife you are married to or how much money you earn, you know your life is incomplete , something there is alway missing ....which soon or later lead you to Taoism .

 

or

 

3) Fortune: You have done lot of good things for people ,the accumulated fortune leads you to it .

Edited August 2, 2008 by exorcist_1699

[Uncarved block]

I have often thought about the relationship karma has with taoism after reading the lieh tzu i came to understand that taoists view karma as. A working principle in the universe like cause and effect but for one to completely understand this mechanism is unknown. its like fortune and missfortune witch work from many turns of action and reaction so many in fact that we as humans cannot decifier. Karma could be explained in this way, this is a very lieh tzu ethos of accepting reality as it is and being content.

[WhiteTiger]

Of course taoism is concerned with karma, but understands it differently from Hinduism (or Buddhism). Let me illustrate... In some Magical Taoism traditions, e.g., it is assumed that odds in life are stacked against winning, just like they are in any chance-based game. You are much more likely to lose than win at lottery, blackjack, or the roulette. There's much more poor people than wealthy ones, unwell than perfectly healthy, depressed than euphoric. You are more likely to be unjustly incarcerated than accidentally released from prison. You are more likely to get in an accident and get hurt than to accidentally tap into special healing powers, or even become an ER physician for that matter. (An ER is a place where the odds are as visible as at a casino: two healthy, wealthy doctors per two hundred hurt patients who are about to go broke on top of, and because of, having been hurt -- and every day it's like that! That's karma: make a wrong move -- and the next move is going to be wrong too. Make a right move -- and chances are the next one will still be wrong. That's because we've made so many moves against the flow already that the flow itself is stirred up, turbulent. When I used to do a lot of Chinese astrological charts, I have never, ever seen a single one that was problem-free and "lucky" without any if's and but's.

 

But let me illustrate with a lighter example. The neighbors' fat black cat started coming to our door for extra food on a daily basis, but never let me or my son (who inherited benevolence toward cats from me) stroke him, pet him, play with him, or get him to accept the invitation of the open door. The cat would meow for food, in a demanding tone of voice, get it, and leave. Next time you see him, he won't even acknowledge you. All getting, no giving. OK, fine. So eventually we got ourselves a little kitten. The cutest thing in the world, playful, smart, stunning, all the good things a nine-week-old kitten can be. The neighbors' cat saw him through the window! Got agitated, came running to our door, meowing, let me in, I want to play! Stood in the doorway behind the screen, begging, purring, rolling on the ground... I've repented, he seemed to say, I'll do anything -- just don't turn away from me now! So my son comes to the door, looks the cat square in the eye, and tells him, "Well, who needs YOU now?!" I was in awe when I saw my own kid act as karma...

'cause that's how karma acts, it's important to understand that karma doesn't merely "work," it "acts," it has free will -- but no special agenda to be "good to everybody at all times," far from it...

 

I took a good amount of time to rethink this post and realized although I hadn't learned anything knew by reading this it got me thinking of how more in depth I could explore this idea. So I did and I learned more.

 

So i guess i was wrong. Although I did not learn anything new, it produced later events of me learning more new stuff which was VERY gratifying.

 

WT, I never promised to make my every post entertaining. If I did, I'd gain some bad karma by boring you. But since I didn't, you've gained some by being rude for no good reason. Calling people names for no good reason and without any provocation always results in some additional karmic load. Boring but true.

 

Nope you never needed to promise me to make every post entertaining. I would have gained bad karma either way by being rude, the way i understand it. but thats more about the subtleties instead of the direct result, which in words I'm not sure i can clearly explain well anyways.

 

Me being rude to you doesn't scare me btw. AND by the way its not boring and yes its true.

 

You want me to tackle karma with heavier guns? In my tradition, they are so heavy I'm reluctant to talk about it here. OK, I'll mention one thing to you to give you a taste of what it's like.

 

Nope you misunderstand i don't want you to tackle karma with heavier guns, rather i want to understand it on a deeper level. I care not what level the ability i use to help myself as long as it helps myself.

 

*Sigh* I still think TM you have way too many misunderstandings about me. While I'm, weather in a rube way or a nice way trying to understand my misconceptions about you. Apparently I'm not doing a good job of it. Not that I want to learn my opponent, most likely the way you think of it between us. But rather so i can help my rear get out of bad karma, or make a not so good relationship into a respectful one. Even though your more knowledgeable than me. Hows that for information?

 

 

Still boring?.. Or am I getting at something you might be interested in exploring further?.. If the former... sorry. If the latter... sorry again, you'll have to find other sources -- I am forbidden, for the moment, from teaching anybody anything, and that's one reason you don't feel I"m being helpful to you. Another one is, you are in the habit of being rude to me in the same post where you include compliments -- perhaps to make rudeness easier to swallow?

 

Thats not the intended reason of doing it. It might have some similar effect... I dislike it because it masks up my rudeness. But anyone smart would still understand that the fact remains its still on the post. So I do dislike it to some extent just as others with a decent mind can figure out that they should dislike the vibe from that same post.

 

Well, my friend, I actually need neither. Please do me a favor and stick to the point if you will, not to my personality, d'accord?..

 

Your 100% correct. I shall stick to the point and not your personality.

 

P.S. Well I'm sorry for being rude. Honestly, actually i felt bad after i post that post. I thought to myself i should change it. But i didn't. I knew bad things would come out of it. I found what you said very interesting btw. But as I'm one that doesn't trust many people, and I have no reason to, I personally wouldn't take offense if you didn't believe me, even if I were telling you the truth.