Master Nan & Bill Bodri - circulation being a waste of time

[orb]

More important Master Nan, Huai-chin ALSO sits in full-lotus all day and night long (for more time than not). So... call that "empty" meditation if you want but full-lotus opens up what Gurdjieff called the Kundabuffer -- the small of the back and the main "organ" putting modern males into delusion.

 

 

 

Hey Drew, have you actually read what Gurdjieff called Kundabuffer ? It sounds to me that you just used that reference here without knowing what u r talking about. I have read reference to Gurdjieff in an earlier post on this forum related to taoism and the Kundalini theory and again it was totally distorted. I hope the rest of the info people provide on this forum is better documented and not as misleading.

[idquest]

What about Six Yogas of Naropa? Isn't it energy work?

[Vajrasattva]

It's true that he did many ascetic practices and austerities, but did he become enlightened from them? Insofar as they pointed him to the path that he eventually found, they did. But did he become enlightened through practicing them? I don't think so.

We know what he passed on to his disciples through the sutras. And the major Buddhist sutras, Daoist classics, Confucian writings, memoirs of Saints, etc. do not mention moving practices being key. There are certainly spiritual practices that involve movements in some traditions (such as Tibetan and esoteric forms of Buddhism), but in large, still meditation / prayer have been the methods of spiritual development used by Buddhist masters, Daoist sages, and Christian saints.

 

 

The best sutra is not the ones that where written down but the Living Sutra passed on through the "Shaktipat" from master to student.

 

The living Sutra was the "essence" itself.

 

 

What about Six Yogas of Naropa? Isn't it energy work?

 

OFCOURSE! & very GOOD energy work to say the least.

[mjjbecker]

It's true that he did many ascetic practices and austerities, but did he become enlightened from them? Insofar as they pointed him to the path that he eventually found, they did. But did he become enlightened through practicing them? I don't think so.

We know what he passed on to his disciples through the sutras. And the major Buddhist sutras, Daoist classics, Confucian writings, memoirs of Saints, etc. do not mention moving practices being key. There are certainly spiritual practices that involve movements in some traditions (such as Tibetan and esoteric forms of Buddhism), but in large, still meditation / prayer have been the methods of spiritual development used by Buddhist masters, Daoist sages, and Christian saints.

 

These comments are not just directed at any one person.

 

The issue here-going back to the original point made-was that movement practices are "a waste of time". That is what is claimed in the title of the thread.

 

Now, Messrs Bodri, Nan, etc are all entitled to their opinions. However, the use of movement practices is widespread and fundamental to many schools. That includes the Mo Pai, and that includes other esoteric schools I have been accepted into also. This I speak of from experience, which I will take over what is written in a book, regardless of who the author is supposed to be.

 

All in all, a combined body of knowledge covering several thousand years. Direct, unbroken line experience. Direct, unbroken transmission.

 

I've not read all the classics, nor have I met the Buddha, Bodri or Nan. I have met my teachers and I've experienced some of what they can do. You can argue over this till you are blue in the face, but some of us will take EXPERIENCE over BOOKS.

 

There is a WORLD of difference between direct transmission and books. There is NO replacement for it. It is a fundamental part of esoteric traditions. I will take this over translations of books, limited not only by time but by the understanding of the scribe and the translator. Unless you have transmission, you DON'T really understand what is being said anyway. There is a WORLD of difference between 'inside the door' and 'outside the door' understanding.

 

I am sure the above statement won't be appreciated by some, but it is simply the way it is.

 

Live and let live, we can all agree to disagree. Do whatever you want, whatever works for you. Just don't tell me you are right and I am wrong when you base it off what you read, not what you've experienced, and you don't have a fraction of the level of attainment of someone like John Chang and all the others who DO use movement practices.

 

Don't tell me what you've read, tell me what you can DO.

 

Also, for those who love the 'classics', consider how much of the following advice you actually follow:

 

Sincere words are are not sweet,

Sweet words are not sincere.

Good men are not argumentative,

The argumentative are not good.

The wise are not erudite,

The erudite are not wise.

The Sage does not take to hoarding,

The more he lives for others,

The fuller his life.

The more he gives,

The more he abounds.

The Way of Heaven is to benefit,

Not to harm.

The Way of the Sage is to do his duty,

Not to strive with anyone.

 

Lao Tzu

 

Tao Teh Ching

 

I refer you in particular to the comments regarding sweet words, being argumentative, the erudite not being wise and particularly about the Way of the Sage doing his duty and not striving with others.

 

There has been a lot of putting down others practices and pissing contests going on around here of late.

 

 

Best,

 

Mike

[Vajrasattva]

These comments are not just directed at any one person.

 

The issue here-going back to the original point made-was that movement practices are "a waste of time". That is what is claimed in the title of the thread.

 

Now, Messrs Bodri, Nan, etc are all entitled to their opinions. However, the use of movement practices is widespread and fundamental to many schools. That includes the Mo Pai, and that includes other esoteric schools I have been accepted into also. This I speak of from experience, which I will take over what is written in a book, regardless of who the author is supposed to be.

 

All in all, a combined body of knowledge covering several thousand years. Direct, unbroken line experience. Direct, unbroken transmission.

 

I've not read all the classics, nor have I met the Buddha, Bodri or Nan. I have met my teachers and I've experienced some of what they can do. You can argue over this till you are blue in the face, but some of us will take EXPERIENCE over BOOKS.

 

There is a WORLD of difference between direct transmission and books. There is NO replacement for it. It is a fundamental part of esoteric traditions. I will take this over translations of books, limited not only by time but by the understanding of the scribe and the translator. Unless you have transmission, you DON'T really understand what is being said anyway. There is a WORLD of difference between 'inside the door' and 'outside the door' understanding.

 

I am sure the above statement won't be appreciated by some, but it is simply the way it is.

 

Live and let live, we can all agree to disagree. Do whatever you want, whatever works for you. Just don't tell me you are right and I am wrong when you base it off what you read, not what you've experienced, and you don't have a fraction of the level of attainment of someone like John Chang and all the others who DO use movement practices.

 

Don't tell me what you've read, tell me what you can DO.

 

Also, for those who love the 'classics', consider how much of the following advice you actually follow:

 

Sincere words are are not sweet,

Sweet words are not sincere.

Good men are not argumentative,

The argumentative are not good.

The wise are not erudite,

The erudite are not wise.

The Sage does not take to hoarding,

The more he lives for others,

The fuller his life.

The more he gives,

The more he abounds.

The Way of Heaven is to benefit,

Not to harm.

The Way of the Sage is to do his duty,

Not to strive with anyone.

 

Lao Tzu

 

Tao Teh Ching

 

I refer you in particular to the comments regarding sweet words, being argumentative, the erudite not being wise and particularly about the Way of the Sage doing his duty and not striving with others.

 

There has been a lot of putting down others practices and pissing contests going on around here of late.

Best,

 

Mike

 

Bravo Mike....SO TRUE! You are a Sage indeed.

 

The real experience is the real Sutra....

Not what is in a book or an ancient text....

 

remember too that in some of the ancient texts the opposite of what to do is written in order to keep the actual secrets for the "chosen" few only so that the "unworthy" never figure it out....the real traditions are orally and energetically transmitted.

 

peace

 

Santiago

[de_paradise]

Master Nan goes to far in saying no qiigong master has even reached the first dhyana.Huh?!! Also confining the entire Vajrayana path to the garbage heap is selective thinking at best (although I personally am not attracted to it). Also he says Zen produced more enlightened masters than any other path but says now there is no qualified students; So he puts the blame on the students, not the Zen path? Something fishy about that, not just the non-sequitor sentence.

 

Nevertheless, using the jing-chi-shen framework, one assumes at at a chi-shen level, a formless level, which is entirely mind, paying attention to the body and qi, the realm of form, is counter productive. So I wouldnt mind if Vajrasattva or someone could elucidate a bit on that, if at a certain level the movent excercises become pointless. I think that that is Nan's main point.

[Gerard]

True, moving is very important. Remember that "still water breeds mosquitoes."

[voidisyinyang]

[voidisyinyang]

http://www.amazon.com/Treatise-Thirty-Vers...0319&sr=1-1

 

He refers to this book.

[findley]

I'm sorry, but I almost feel as if it is my duty to point out--

 

that that was one of the worst tao te ching translations I have ever seen. It felt distorted and misleading.

[Seth Ananda]

Hi everyone

Christian mystics in many traditions had moving prayers. An elderly Jesuit friend years ago showed me a number of practices and I have forgotten most of them. He had Studied the great Christian Mystics for most of his life and had done his P.H.D on the various practices they taught. He practiced them as well. One of the practices was the rocking back and forward from the waist while kneeling, similar to the Hasidic practice 'Cleaving'. it was done with prayer. Also he showed me rosary practices where the Christian mantras were used in different parts of the body. He also had learned Some of the celibate Sexual practices of St Teresa of Avila which move sexual energy with breath, prayer and movement through the body - Jesusgasm

He was an amazing man with a Light about him that was disconcerting. He inspired me a lot in my own path.

 

Everyone quotes Master Nan saying things like "Did the Buddha need chi circulations or did any of the Zen monks need them, No..."

I'm not dissing Lord Buddha but he only experienced a small portion of the Vedic-yogic teachings. The Extreme Ascetic Tapa style practices which made a skeleton out of him. Then he chucked the entire system out with the bath water, and all the Buddhists since have been saying things like Well it didn't work for Buddha so it wont work for anyone. What about all the Enlightened Hindu and Yogic or Tantric Saints who it did work for.

"Ohh but there not as Enlightened as Buddha..." It's ok to believe this, if your a Fundamentalist, but don't get sucked into this line of Ultra conservative - My way or the Highway thinking.

 

Also there are very few people or saints who Tapas has worked for and many meditating skeletons who some good old Buddhist middle path would probably be great for

 

And What about how incredibly still the energy moving meditations can make the mind? Samadhi is easy after the right stuff so I know with personal experience that Bodri is way off on that count.

 

Seth

Sat Chit Anand!

[styrofoamdog]

Drew, you still haven't produced a single example of Nan Huaijin stating that full lotus is essential. If you are going to keep trying to push this, you should back it up with an example.

 

Vajrasattva and mjjbecker, I understand that you favor your experiences over books, but if you only draw from your own environment and experiences, you are ignoring what others have learned in the past. I understand that esoteric Buddhist schools have moving forms, but it is also understood by Buddhists that this is not the only way, or the simplest way. We should remember that Nan Huaijin has not only practiced Chan Buddhism.

 

In 1945, he left for Tibet to learn from Tibetan Masters and was conferred the official title of Vajra Master by the Hutuktu (high ranking incarnate) Kung Ka of the Kagyu tradition. He is also the most eminent student of the renowned lay Chan Master Yuan Huan-Xian, making him an adept in both the Chan and the Tantric traditions.

He is familiar with this form of Buddhism, but teaches Chan as the essential and most direct path. He also criticizes attempts to keep secrets within "transmissions", or hiding knowledge, when the Bodhisattva's vows compel Buddhists to teach humanity in earnest.

 

Also, I should note that Bill's views are not necessarily Nan's. I don't think that Nan Huaijin would be so negative or take such a dogmatic approach saying that moving forms are useless. And Nan has written some favorable things about esoteric Buddhism, although there are few of his books available in English.

[VCraigP]

I'm sorry, but I almost feel as if it is my duty to point out--

 

that that was one of the worst tao te ching translations I have ever seen. It felt distorted and misleading.

 

 

Okey dokey.

 

Step up...

 

Post the same verse from a source you like better. Will the essense of the message be different?

[mjjbecker]

 

Vajrasattva and mjjbecker, I understand that you favor your experiences over books, but if you only draw from your own environment and experiences, you are ignoring what others have learned in the past.

 

I'm not ignoring others and that is precisely my point. I am following a 'living' tradition, one that stretches back, unbroken, into the distant past. I'm drawing on that unbroken knowledge and wisdom.

 

In another thread I quoted Newton:

 

'If I have seen further than others it is because I have stood on the shoulders of giants.'

 

That is exactly how I feel. I feel very humbled that teachers have seen fit to allow me to be a part of this vast and profound heritage. That some-and I am not saying this is you-would belittle or 'poo poo' this heritage is deeply offensive. Not to my ego, but to the hundreds and thousands of people who have given their lives to allow some of us to start from a much higher level of knowledge than we otherwise would have.

 

That others would do things differently from me, I have no problem with at all. I would not say they were wrong, I would not insist they were deluded. I would wish them well and the best of luck.

 

It is their shame, not mine, that they would return courtesy with boorish and rude behaviour. I don't care what people think of me. I will not sit by and see this heritage slandered by those who have not the slightest inkling of what they are pissing on.

 

Best,

 

Mike

[mjjbecker]

Okey dokey.

 

Step up...

 

Post the same verse from a source you like better. Will the essence of the message be different?

 

Even better would be for findley to demonstrate his own translation skills.

 

findley,

 

I suspect you have no qualifications whatsoever to judge this translation, yet you release a completely pointless criticism. Do you have any knowledge of the Chinese languages and dialects? Have you studied the cultures at all? Have you ever studied a tradition? I don't mean the tantric masturbation you practice from reading a book, I mean have you been accepted into a school?

 

All of the above I suspect not, but do prove me wrong if you can and I will apologise. I think I wont be humbling myself any time soon in your direction.

 

Given your various utterly uninformed comments that you have decided to 'share' with everyone, I feel this quote fits you better:

Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools talk because they have to say something.

 

Plato

 

Should it be necessary to point it out, the second clause applies to you.

 

Go and learn something. Then you will have an informed opinion, not simply an opinion that informs others you know nothing.

 

 

Mike

[Vajrasattva]

Vajrasattva and mjjbecker, I understand that you favor your experiences over books, but if you only draw from your own environment and experiences, you are ignoring what others have learned in the past.

 

How is it I ignore what others have learned in the past if my ACTUAL knowledge / Energy/ understanding comes from the source?

 

Dr. Morris is just one of my teachers who I happen to resonate with but i have lineages that GO WAY BACK. I have tantric transmissions that go back to the actual Mahasiddhas, and the 1st Bon po Buddha which predates Shakyamuni to about 10,000 years (one of my lamas is actual bloodline decendant to Tonpa Shenrab), Nyingma transmissions that go back to Padmashambhava and Pema Dudual. Sufi Transmissions that go back to Mohammed & the 9 Wali Songo Saints which ultimately go back to ALLAH. Not to mention egyptian transmissions that go back before Buddhist sutra......So how is it a book can give me this?

 

So how is it that I need to read it from a book instead of having the ACTUAL transmissions???? How is it I ignore what others have done in the past???

 

An ounce of Experience & practice is worth a ton of theory and Sutra.

 

Also what "Scripture" do you need or Sutra do you need once you know how to do Avishkara or Deity Yoga or true Ilmu Kebatinan where you have direct access to ALLAH?

 

one of my Sufi/ILmu kebatinan masters says one meditation with proper understanding is equivalent to 72 years of reading the Koran every day from cover to cover!

 

The greatest scripture or Sutra is the one in your heart. You do not need anything else.

 

Peace

 

Santiago

[styrofoamdog]

...

That is exactly how I feel. I feel very humbled that teachers have seen fit to allow me to be a part of this vast and profound heritage. That some-and I am not saying this is you-would belittle or 'poo poo' this heritage is deeply offensive. Not to my ego, but to the hundreds and thousands of people who have given their lives to allow some of us to start from a much higher level of knowledge than we otherwise would have.

...

Ah, I think I understand your point. I also disagree with the way Bill wrote about it (which I found a bit disrespectful), which is why I recommended the Nan Huaijin book originally. My views are that for spiritual cultivation, only meditation without thoughts is necessary. From what I understand, this is the common denominator among religions and spiritual practices. But I don't mean to say that other practices are useless.

[Vajrasattva]

Master Nan goes to far in saying no qiigong master has even reached the first dhyana.Huh?!! Also confining the entire Vajrayana path to the garbage heap is selective thinking at best (although I personally am not attracted to it). Also he says Zen produced more enlightened masters than any other path but says now there is no qualified students;

 

 

Sorry but this is horse shit.

 

Paradise i am not directing that towards you.

 

Ah, I think I understand your point. I also disagree with the way Bill wrote about it (which I found a bit disrespectful), which is why I recommended the Nan Huaijin book originally. My views are that for spiritual cultivation, only meditation without thoughts is necessary. From what I understand, this is the common denominator among religions and spiritual practices. But I don't mean to say that other practices are useless.

 

 

I agree. I disagree with Bodri. In the end humility is the highest key.

[Sunya]

 

 

Dr. Morris is just one of my teachers who I happen to resonate with but i have lineages that GO WAY BACK. I have tantric transmissions that go back to the actual Mahasiddhas, and the 1st Bon po Buddha which predates Shakyamuni to about 10,000 years (one of my lamas is actual bloodline decendant to Tonpa Shenrab), Nyingma transmissions that go back to Padmashambhava and Pema Dudual. Sufi Transmissions that go back to Mohammed & the 9 Wali Songo Saints which ultimately go back to ALLAH. Not to mention egyptian transmissions that go back before Buddhist sutra......So how is it a book can give me this?

 

 

 

 

WOW,

can i get your autograph?

lol

 

it's a blessing to have you here. with all those transmissions everything you say must be truth.

why are you guys not bowing to Santiago? don't question, bow.

Edited August 1, 2008 by mikaelz

[styrofoamdog]

How is it I ignore what others have learned in the past if my ACTUAL knowledge / Energy/ understanding comes from the source?

...

I think this is mostly an argument for or against esoteric methods, which favor lineages, transmission, etc. In more esoteric schools, there are specific practices said to speed up cultivation, or direct it. In other practices (most forms of Daoism and Buddhism), emptiness meditation is the principle method. The emptiness produces Qi, opens meridians, etc. naturally. For these, studying works such as Daoist classics and Buddhist sutras can point people in the right direction. For esoteric teachings, it isn't so easy.

 

And I agree that studying is not a substitute for practice.

[SiliconValley]

I have tantric transmissions that go back to the actual Mahasiddhas, and the 1st Bon po Buddha which predates Shakyamuni to about 10,000 years (one of my lamas is actual bloodline decendant to Tonpa Shenrab), Nyingma transmissions that go back to Padmashambhava and Pema Dudual. Sufi Transmissions that go back to Mohammed & the 9 Wali Songo Saints which ultimately go back to ALLAH.

Santiago

 

 

Now, who ever has a transmission, has it from the source, transmitted through a lineage. I doubt anything can come "newly" from "elsewhere". Impressive list

 

Though most teachers ask students to follow one path completely and one lineage, and move on only if that path is incapable of doing the highest good, whatever that may be...

 

In the end humility is the highest key.

 

 

Edited August 1, 2008 by SiliconValley

[sheng zhen]

WOW,

can i get your autograph?

lol

 

it's a blessing to have you here. with all those transmissions everything you say must be truth.

why are you guys not bowing to Santiago? don't question, bow.

Because its nothing compared to the 7402 masters you meet when you do Kunlun 1!!!

[Sunya]

In the end humility is the highest key.

 

 

 

 

lol i too found that part amusing

[Vajrasattva]

WOW,

can i get your autograph?

lol

 

it's a blessing to have you here. with all those transmissions everything you say must be truth.

why are you guys not bowing to Santiago? don't question, bow.

 

 

Thanks brother,

 

Please do not do this. Bow to the Creator not me or anyone in the flesh for that matter.

We are only a spec to the real source.

 

Peace,

 

Santiago

 

 

 

Because its nothing compared to the 7402 Kun Lun masters you meet when you do Kunlun 1!!!

 

The true source contains EVERY truth & EVERY master including the 7402 KUN LUN (which the kunlun masters equals to 4 really.....if you know what your are counting ).

 

KNow here is a question for you lets see how far the rabbit hole goes............

 

are the KUN LUN masters Jinn?

 

If so who do the Jinn serve?

Edited August 1, 2008 by Vajrasattva

[sheng zhen]

 

are the KUN LUN masters Jinn?

 

If so who do the Jinn serve?

Many many years ago I heard a line of one of my favorite house tunes at the time. "mathematics is the language of the Jinn". Oh my god, this is something mysterious, I freaked out and did everything I could to find out about the Jinn. I dont quite remember now, but they have something to do with the Mu civilization, right?

 

I heard the song again just last year and this time I heard what they really said: "mathematics is the language of the RICH"! hahahah