Master Nan & Bill Bodri - circulation being a waste of time

[Vajrasattva]

Master Nan, Huai-chin actually won't talk about REAL samadhi -- nirvakalpi samadhi. All he said is that you see the stars even though it's the middle of the day and that you travel into outerspace. Other than that he says it's against his vows and also the experience is indescribable -- but he does say that first you have to open all the body's channels and fill the body with electromagnetic energy and this is demonstrated by sitting in full-lotus.

 

 

Yes the experience is undescribable with words....

 

And better yet this is possible with out FULL or partial Lotus. I did the same thing in "Sukhasana" with MCO ,Phowa & another powerful breathing method learned in KAP by Dr. Morris.

 

I see stars & outer & inner space at will and can send the consciousness anywhere using Phowa. I have a hole in my skull like a mini dolphin whole that is developed at the crown (all real tibetan yogis have this and it to proves their phowa). I can insert my finger nail in. Some Lamas can place a stick or a leaf in their whole.

 

Anyone trained in Tibetan Yoga (Tsa Lung Tul Khor) or & who has had a real samadhi can do so. Glenn was also able to see and do such things. If you are used to using or developing your crown center this will develop automatically.

 

But even those "things" (Stars inner & outer galaxies universes etc...) are also "illusion" so you go beyond even that aswell so you go past any samadhi with object to one that is beyond object.

 

Om Gate Gate Parasamgate Boddhi Svaha!

 

Drew....You do not need FULL LOTUS...even that can be an attachment.

 

 

Peace

 

Santiago

[mjjbecker]

Well when Jim, the student of "john chang" pushes the chi he was taught and confirms it feels like taking a dump.

 

Of course that's the MACROCOSMIC orbit. I also can confirm this feeling -- done while in full-lotus.

 

Did Jim tell you about the student who blew a valve in his heart while practising this? Or about the others who have had heart attacks and strokes?

 

I suspect not.

 

Drew, you don't know the half of it.

 

Best,

 

Mike

[gendao]

Did Jim tell you about the student who blew a valve in his heart while practising this? Or about the others who have had heart attacks and strokes?

 

I suspect not.

 

Drew, you don't know the half of it.

 

Best,

 

Mike

Interesting, MoPai is reputedly risky. Is it because it's too forceful? And (can't remember if I've asked you this), but do you know what happened to Kostas? Did he get cancer? Edited August 6, 2008 by vortex

[寒月 Hanyue]

Wow talk about thread drift

 

Isn't appreciation of 'context' in regards as to who said what, when, why, and to whom important?

 

Personally I've found Bodri's translations of Master Nan's work varies drastically, and my reading of his work appears to contradict Master Nan as translated elsewhere on occasion. Bodri is a little blunt at times and seems to court putting things in a way as to cause a reaction. Tao and Longevity is a preferred read in my opinion.

 

As i understand it, Master Nan speaks in the context of spiritual achievement (define that as you will), so his comments relate to that. Comments that may seem to deride qigong, are in regards to such practices that are great for health (and other things) but will not provide spiritual achievement. It is not that Master Nan is slagging these practices off completely, but pointing out their shortcomings as RELATED to a specific use/aim. Something that is worth pointing out, as there are people that think all these things work the same and will get you to the same place, which as we all know is not true.

 

Comments regarding neigong found in nejiaquan fall under the same misunderstanding, neigong as needed for martial prowess is not needed for spiritual attainment, confusing these practices with those that will help you with spiritual achievement is what Master Nan's 'writings' are about. Everything has its place, they all overlap in some places, sometimes more than others, but understanding what you are doing, what it is for and how to achieve that is something that i would have thought everyone on this forum would appreciate.

 

Of course there is also nothing wrong with a varied path, as many follow and emphasise different things at different times in their lives. Use a hammer when a hammer is necessary and not when swatting a fly...?

 

As for 'circulation' or not, again think context.

 

Again, Master Nan is talking about spiritual achievement (something i will not claim any knowledge of, but given Master Nan's experience i will certainly listen to what he has to say).

 

Master Nan takes the approach that if you cultivate correctly then you will have increased energy, and energy moves, it flows it does this naturally, so why do you need to move it? Here we can take the position that you either have energy and it is flowing through the orbits/channels etc or you do not (meaning 'higher' cultivated energy for those that will say 'everyone has energy, you are born with it').

 

If you do not, then with 'circulation' practices all you will be trying to do is move something you don't have through intent/will through these orbits, which Master Nan think is a waste of time as he feels that is not the way to get the energy in the first place. So you are better off focusing on what will get you that energy whilst also moving you further along your intended goal.

 

If you do already have the energy and it is flowing/moving, then per spiritual achievement as the goal, you do not need to 'play' with it as this all too easily becomes a distraction from further development, energy being a by-product of the path not the goal.

 

Moving the energy around and playing with it if you have it again can have applications, healing, magical, or combative, each of these is useful given a specific context, if you do not have that context then it is a waste of time. A 4x4 beach buggy is great on dunes, not so great for commuting : )

 

The WAY you are learning and WHAT you are learning will layer and allow you to develop in a SPECIFIC way, in a world of choice gone made it is easy for people to miss what they are really after through practicing something that takes them somewhere else. Are these practices then wrong, no they were just used for the wrong context, intentionally or not. I'm sure i am not alone in having experienced this! it is part of the learning curve in finding out just what you DO want and where you ARE trying to go, let alone HOW to get there. It is probably why so many masters have practiced a wide array of things at different times in their lives.

 

Now the Ch'an/Zen school has a particular way of aiming at and defining spiritual achievement, as do all other schools. Again context comes into importance, many schools like to teach a range of abilities and skills as you move along the path, others will not always see the relevance of them, and some may even become distracted by them and not go far along the path. But that is the nature of the different traditions no? Debate it all you want, change it you will not.

 

I don't know of a qigong/neigong teacher who didn't advocate stillness of mind/cns as being the key to switching on to your qi to get any real juice before doing anything else. Otherwise it can just be 'mental masterbation'. Visualization is about becoming aware of what is happening and then deepening that, more than trying to 'make things happen', if you're not quiet how can you hear?

 

All the best, B

[joeblast]

good post

[Cameron]

For me, one of the challenges seems to NOT interfere with the flow of energy in the orbit or wherever when it starts to move. For example, you start to feel energy sponteously flowing in the orbit or another channel and the mind latches on to it and says "Yes!Good!more!" and wants to help guide it around stronger. At first it feels very exciting when channels that have been blocked suddenly start to open. But to be able to just watch the process without messing with it seems the challenge. Just kind of smiling and letting things go as they should.

 

I have personally been more attracted to practices that help to naturally open the chanells but can see how doing more of an active method can be useful at times.

 

Maybe the truth is somewhere in the middle. Sometimes it's useful to guide the energy and you need to also learn to let go and let it do whatever it needs.

 

Obviously if you can study directly with one of these type of Masters that probably helps clear all this up. Rather than being in the dark about what is or isn't real practice or cultivation.

[Stigweard]

Speaking from whatever degree of experience and/or attainment that I have I would like to share my observations on this matter.

 

When I started my esoteric quest I was a phenomena junkie mainly because I wanted/needed proof that there was more to my life than the depressing drudgery I had somehow created for myself. At this stage the allures of chi power / chi channelling was highly intriguing.

 

With enough desire and faith you can achieve anything and so in my desperation managed blow open my chi perception in a series of incredible 'openings'. However, because of the gross immaturity of my mind at that stage, I was unable to properly cope with the enormity of this new chi perception.

 

After many years I have learned the truth of what the masters say:

 

Quiet the mind,

Follow the breath,

Cultivate virtue.

 

Of all the circulation work I have practiced, to this date, the most beneficial and effective (in terms of personal vitality and clarity) is quiet sitting being fully mindful of the breath. What is amazing is that, with time, one's awareness naturally starts to engage in circulation.

 

In my mind, circulation and qigong are important aspects of cultivation, and I am actively engaged in both. However, your foundation must be first rooted in the basic virtues of life:

 

Healthy body

Harmonious emotions

Clear and peaceful mind

 

Without these as your root any progress will only result in distortion. And after all, if you fail at everything else and only achieve this basic level of attainment you have lived a life of fulfillment.

[寒月 Hanyue]

Joeblast

 

Thankyou for the kind words : )

 

Cameron, Stigweard

 

Personally i agree, i think it is harder to remain in the witness state and let things be, given the concept of the body, mind, qi and Shakti as having an 'intelligence' of their own (in various ways). And that we should just stop obstructing them from doing what they should be rather than trying to then get them to do what we want, like we know what that should that be.

 

But then guiding qi has its place when there is a specific reason for it, healing seems to be one. Many forms of qigong are based on dao yin, but then there is again a difference between using a calm mind and movement to 'guide' qi, and sitting still and using the yi to move qi. But then i suppose that also depends upon how your translate 'yi' and the concepts of using it in relation to qi. Even Micheal Winn has said he teaches dong gong (one of which is a form he learned from B Frantzis) to open the MCO as just sitting there and mentally doing it was found to not be so effective for his students (see his website).

 

I think once you HAVE 'qi', so to speak ie opened the body and the mai then stillness and moving the qi is different, like patting a basketball spinning on your finger to keep it moving is different from trying to get it going.

 

So both seem to have their place, just for different things. I think both have their potential draw backs for 'bad' practice or not going anywhere too. The main one regarding conscious circulation is, as you say Stigweard, a "phenomena junkie" chasing rainbows and thinking that what you have experienced is more than it really is. The 'Ch'an' approach of course also has it's own potential pitfalls, and can just as easily lead to false understandings of achievement. There is much in the classical and modern literature about mistaking being 'halfway up the mountain' for standing on the peak.

 

I suppose that is why have your experiences 'confirmed' by those further along the path is important?

 

All the best,

[Stigweard]

The other aspect of this discussion is that the most beneficial practice for one person may be not be so for another. As a general example, someone who has the tendency to be hyperactive should focus on more quiet cultivation whilst someone who has become lethargic would benefit from a more active practice. Differences in practice are also appropriate with gender and age.

 

So it is possibly a limited view to say one practice is 'most' or 'more' beneficial than another. Who is to say what will be the 'key' to unification for each individual?

[寒月 Hanyue]

This is a very true point you make, and one where i feel a teacher can be of help as they can often see what we NEED better than we can. Of course it still depends upon the 'school of thought' you, or they adhere to in the end i suppose.

 

Some would say to delve further into the end of the spectrum where you are stuck until you come out the other side again. Lethargic? become even more so, to the point of excess, do absolutely nothing revel in it until that spark inside occurs that propels you towards moving and 'doing' something. Balancing these two extremes out and appreciating where you are at any given time on any day in light of them seems quite hard to do, it is quite easy to remain firmly attached to a routine and forget the continual patterns of change.

 

Maybe this is where the problems come from in some traditions where only part of the spectrum is passed on for some reason or another??

 

Best regards,

 

SM

[Dog]

[Stigweard]

--thought some might enjoy this artical.

 

 

I certainly did ... thank you for posting it.

[Vajrasattva]

There is only danger with fire if you do not know how to use it.

[寒月 Hanyue]

I was going to stay quiet lest i be mistaken for 'defending' Frantzis ha ha

 

Winn's article which i read a while ago on his site reads like a self serving rubuttal to me. It also shows significant lack of understanding of the neigong and meditative approach taught by Frantzis. Frantzis' whole 'Fire' vs 'Water' thing, while containing truths about the differences in underlying philosophical methods and approaches to cultivation, is also written in a rather antagonistic fashion in places. Given that many seem to feel that he is directly talking about Chia's work it doesn't suprise me that Winn feels the need to defend himself by, er attacking?

 

At the end of the day they both have an agenda and interests to protect, and Winn's article is doing just that. Unfortunately instead of creating a nice comparative piece looking at the two approaches, we get a rather crap article with little or no insight into either side. To my mind they are in fact talking about completely different things IMHO (whatever that is worth, which isn't much in the grand scheme of things ha ha).

 

ON Winn's forum someone posted this in response;

 

 

"If there is fire gate and there is water gate, then there are eight gates of Kumar's bagua.

 

 

THE SPIRALLING ENERGY BODY DESCRIPTION

 

Again please refer to Energy Arts Inc. website for a full description.

This is generally the most powerful of B.K.Frantzis Chi Gungs and is only taught at retreats.I must emphasize that I do not teach this set and will not be offering it as a weekend seminar at all.

 

THIS IS THE SET THAT REPRESENTS THE FIRE ELEMENT in Bruce's Taoist Water Method of Chi Gung. First students are given a personalised posture which is designed to open as many of their Chi Channels as possible.

 

Next you learn how to start initiating the upward current of energy from the earth and how to generate spirals of energy at the Dantian.It is essential that prospective students of this method have practised the Outer Dissolving technique and the rest of the Energy Gates set before beginning this process,as this is the best protection against any potential problems that can arise.

 

Other topics include how to neutralise both your own and environmental negative energy states and how to use the energy developed by this set to power the movements of the Energy Gates movements."

 

 

Which clearly shows Winn either 'forgot' about this part of Frantzis teaching or chose to ignore it when writing his pov. Yet there has also been no reply to this?? I think the confusion lies in the uses of the metaphors of Fire and Water, they don't always refer to the same things every time they are used. Different traditions have different meanings for them and often use the same metaphor for various things within itself anyway. 'Water' can be used to refer to many things within neigong, as can 'Fire' or 'wind' etc and that doesn't even include the confusion that occurs especially when you only have the English and not the Chinese character to go from.

 

I think it is all to easy to create and attack a straw man (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man) to point out your own 'rightness'. It is up to each person to decide who is doing what and why?

 

Most approaches work well if studied CORRECTLY and fully, taking bits and pieces may not provide the results expected but that decision is up to each person. Personally i think both of the methods if engaged with thoughtfully and properly with the right guidance are helpful, it depends on what you are want, though i think the differences lie less in what is being worked with or done and more in how it is worked with, why and when in your progress.

 

To each their own, ego's will always battle on.

 

Avoid the propaganda wherever possible.

 

 

All the best,

 

SM

[Guest allan]

[寒月 Hanyue]

Hi Allan

 

You make some very good points. One of the most interesting things i ever learned was that not all cultures see history or engage with it in the same way as we currently do in the West.

 

Many seem to think that there is one single objective 'History', when there is not, it is at best various strands of subjective histories woven together. I have found James Deacon's comments of interest;

 

"[i am reminded of something a Japanese bujutsu Sensei once taught me - about what he felt was a particularly Japanese concept (though perhaps it is far more universal) - something he referred to as tatemae, which has to do with maintaining a harmonious society. He said that for a gaijin (non-Japanese) to truly begin to understand the Japanese mind-set (and by extension bujutsu and other arts) we need to understand that, in the final analysis, Japanese consciousness is not overly concerned about 'hard-fact reality' - rather, it seeks to find a 'reality' that everyone can agree about. A compromise: an agreed version of truth - even if it is a fantasy, as long as it is one everyone consents to believe...]" (http://www.aetw.org/reiki_history_tatemae.html)

 

Traditions have their own histories passed on down through the lineage, these contain accounts of history and everything else as those within that tradition believed it to be. These do not always, and quite often dramatically, match up. Who is right, who is wrong? is there a right or wrong?

 

I should point out that based on what i have been told by one of his students when i asked them, Frantzis' use of the term 'Water tradition/method' has nothing to do with 'Kan' and 'Li' from inner alchemy. As you say " Kan and/or Li are not methods.". This is one reason i found Winn's article odd, in that he claims to speak from a position of understanding having been taught Frantzis neigong sets, yet discusses it from his pov regarding kan and li??

 

This is why i think Winn's article falls down, he is simply discussing something completely different to what Frantzis is talking about. I am not saying either is right, so much as the arguments put forth by both (Frantzis in his books, Winn in this article) are discussing very different aspects of the cultivation path. Though i do agree with Winn that Frantzis writes of the traditions in a way that easily fosters mis-understanding at times.

 

I have only come across skant (independent of Frantzis) references to a possible 'water tradition' "shui jia", and this is within the western academic study of Daoism. I don't read Chinese and so am unable to look into original sources effectively. This theory is in reference to a particular philosophical approach to the study of the Dao, it is not in reference to 'methods' used or 'aspects' that occur within the methods used, ala kan and li in internal alchemy. Various metaphors could be used for these lines of thought, 'water' is just one of them. It is best to remember the straw man argument, if you are within a 'water' tradition (or better put a tradition that heavily relies upon the metaphor of 'water' in the underlying philosophical outlook) then you might well use 'fire' as a metaphor for other schools that you view as different due to their philosophical approach, but does that mean that they consider themselves, let alone call themselves a 'fire' method, no, not really.

 

It is also best to keep in mind that hard and fast labels and neat little boxes need not apply, academics like listing things and will always invent new ways to group things together, oddly the 'things' often rebel such groupings. So references to a 'shui jia' by scholars writing much later on, or use of a term by later adherents within a tradition, does not mean those around at the time used such labels, or if they did that they mean the exact same thing (look at the field of Hermeneutics for example). But then does that mean the tradition did not exist or was not passed on? no, traditions change, adapt, some grow well others do not, some get re-invigorated by a prodigy, others do not. An individual is like a lense and a tradition the light that passes through it, they are not the same thing.

 

At the end of the day it can all just become a bit too 'academic' all too easily. A birch is a birch, an oak an oak they are both trees rightly or wrongly, they both stand in the ground and reach up to heaven, soak up the sun and feel the wind.

 

All the best, peace

 

SM

[h.uriahr]

In the end everyone ends up sitting, meditating quitely. If you are able sit and meditate then do so IMO. The great big question is whether you want to store or circulate right now. Circulating your chi via qigong or other exercise is great to help tear down any blockages. Sitting, meditating, doing inner alchemy for lack of a better term is the end goal, for most anyway.

[Smile]

In a week, I'm going to see Nan Huai-Chin. If anyone has any questions for him, ask now.

[Cameron]

No questions just enjoy yourself bro.

[voidisyinyang]

How long does he sit in full-lotus every day/night?

 

In a week, I'm going to see Nan Huai-Chin. If anyone has any questions for him, ask now.

[styrofoamdog]

In a week, I'm going to see Nan Huai-Chin. If anyone has any questions for him, ask now.

Are you going to see him at the school that he set up? I have a question for him....

 

For Americans and other westerners, what is the most effective and appropriate approach to cultivation?

[Smile]

Sounds good. Will do.

[styrofoamdog]

Sounds good. Will do.

Thanks!

[daoseeker]

just some basic replies on that topic and discussion:

 

1. it is true that some results of energy work unfold naturally without that particular practices, e.g. when you just practice Zazen or Zuowang (sitting and forgetting) for a long time. I experienced that myself a big portion. Your Dantian can fill up naturally over time when you do quiet sitting the right way, and Qi is just "overflowing" into the channels or even into the microcosmic orbit (that happened to me)

 

2. I consider that natural "Qi-gathering" even the secret of many initial steps of Daoist inner alchemy, e.g. when the classics talk about the utmost emptiness when a "Yang spark" is occuring and Qi starts to rise... (as far as my understanding and practice has reached). I believe and have been taught in China that many initial practices of Neidan are just covering quiet meditation practices in the beginning.

 

3. The Daoist way, particularly the Quanzhen/Longmen approach is dual cultivation named Xing and Ming - I would translate as "Inner nature" and "Life". Most of present Daoist monks interprete this as dual cultivation of energy work/mind cultivation OR moving practice/sitting practice.

Or you could simply say one part is practising arts like Taichi or Qigong as body/energy work (and daily labour...), another part is meditation as a mind cultivation e.g. Zuowang or Zazen-like ways.

And that's not theory! That's how they live and structure their daily life in general.

 

If you say "+", there will be a "-" also....

the truth is in between, the truth is non-differentiating!

[Smile]

He doesn't sit in full lotus. He used to when he was in retreat, but it's not necessary now.

 

How long does he sit in full-lotus every day/night?

 

 

 

He emphasized on not focusing so much on sensations (even in Vipassana) but on moving on to the bigger you - the room you are in, the town, the world, the universe. Do not limit yourself to the body and what your experiences, sensations, whatever are. Open up like a flower and shine the light, expand your mind to the size of the universe. That's the lesson I got that I have to work on.

 

Are you going to see him at the school that he set up? I have a question for him....

 

For Americans and other westerners, what is the most effective and appropriate approach to cultivation?