Master Nan & Bill Bodri - circulation being a waste of time

[mantis]

how cool was it to meet him?

[Smile]

I was honored to meet him and I met a whole bunch of other people I wouldn't meet otherwise and got an invitation to meet the Abbot of Shaolin and study whatever I want there.

[Seth Ananda]

He doesn't sit in full lotus. He used to when he was in retreat, but it's not necessary now.

He emphasized on not focusing so much on sensations (even in Vipassana) but on moving on to the bigger you - the room you are in, the town, the world, the universe. Do not limit yourself to the body and what your experiences, sensations, whatever are. Open up like a flower and shine the light, expand your mind to the size of the universe. That's the lesson I got that I have to work on.

Thanks Smile, Awesome!

Thats one of the Ultra Important Tantric meditations. I do it alot

[SiliconValley]

Thanks Smile, Awesome!

Thats one of the Ultra Important Tantric meditations. I do it alot

 

 

Absolutely...Smile, thanks for sharing with us his blessings ...

[Smile]

Some videos of Master Nan on youtube, in one of them he teaches 9 bottle breathing...

 

5Bl5qyZuhRg

 

gZ2wnZbjCfQ

 

DqmTqJgkFEI

[Smile]

Also, can someone make English subtitles for these videos?

[Vajrasattva]

Some videos of Master Nan on youtube, in one of them he teaches 9 bottle breathing...

 

5Bl5qyZuhRg

 

gZ2wnZbjCfQ

 

DqmTqJgkFEI

 

 

the last video is a variation of "Tsa Lung Trul Khor". This is old "Maha Siddha" Yoga from Bon po.

Edited January 6, 2009 by Vajrasattva

[gendao]

This

to have awakened his kundalini after a few weeks largely using their methods:

DYTKs2Ee9i4

[mantis]

thanks for the videos smile

[Spectrum]

...

Edited January 29, 2009 by Spectrum

[NeutralWire]

Can I add a name to this discussion?

 

Bardon.

 

FACT 1: Bardon's practice comes from a completely different direction -- it has energy work but not energy work where you move the energy through the body, just out of and into the body.

 

FACT 2: In his online correspondence, Rawn Clark is asked: does Bardon's system raise kundalini? His reply -- you don't "raise kundalini", it rises of its own accord when the moment comes.

 

CONCLUSION: Bardon's practice at Step IV (of 10 steps) begins to raise kundalini just like the Nan practice, by still sitting.

 

 

But obviously the practice is very different from Nan! In particular note the enormous emphasis upon elemental balance in the personality.

 

FACT 1: The elements, which have to be balanced equally, are also linked to the astral senses.

 

FACT 2: In 'Tao and Longevity' Nan specifically states that not everyone develops every astral sense, and some even develop only one.

 

CONCLUSION: You can go a long way in Nan's system (equivalent of Bardon Step VII) and still be elementally unbalanced.

 

 

This is because there is no work in Zen apart from still sitting which bypasses the personality. Either your personality must be naturally balanced with no work, or else you will not go all the way. You need something apart from still sitting. Note in 'Tao and Longevity' how, if the chi makes difficulties in the chest it's just -- 'see a doctor'. Never any suspicion that chi makes difficulty in your chest because of the way you live, your personality in the heart area. In Nan's system the human personality is ignored.

 

You have to work on the personality. There are many ways apart from the sketchy ones Bardon provided, and as long as you keep elemental balance as your goal you will succeed. Also: Bardon is compatible with most qigong I have tried, and the qigong does help with Bardon (because of grounding). So does zazen and so does seminal retention.

 

 

On 'Nirva-Kalpa-Samadhi':

 

FACT 1: Bardon states absolutely specifically that a 4-letter harmony of Kabbalah is equivalent to Nirva-Kalpa-Samadhi or perfect harmonic awareness of microcosm and macrocosm.

 

FACT 2: Rawn confirms this is 'very much the case' quote.

 

CONCLUSION: You can achieve this in a completely different manner with Bardon and you are attaining alot more besides. Rawn Clark has achieved it.

 

 

Guys I reckon Bardon has the measure of us all. I know there will be lots of griping from the back, he is Western, lots of people don't get on with this practice. I'm just saying: the stuff is in there. Look at Step IV, harmony of the 4 elements, and realize, this is doing what Nan's zazen is doing, but in a manner whereby you can also use those energies for infinitely more than just that.

 

When you talk about 'still sitting vs. cycling energy' don't forget there are more options, and one of them is published: Bardon. It is proven to work and it operates on different principles getting equivalent results. And you can do it alongside just about anything else if you are skillful.

 

NeutralWire

[Pietro]

I was honored to meet him and I met a whole bunch of other people I wouldn't meet otherwise and got an invitation to meet the Abbot of Shaolin and study whatever I want there.

 

I was not aware of this invitation.

I think you should go.

I suspect not many people are invited.

[forestofsouls]

Can I add a name to this discussion?

Bardon.

 

I'm becoming of the Yodic school (after TB's Yoda, of course) of mind on this one--- certain practices draw certain types of people. Emptiness zen-style meditation doesn't work for me right now. Now because it's inferior, but because I always sink into mental dullness when I try it.

 

Bardon's work is interesting, but with a major drawback: Bardon is not alive. I worked with his stuff some years ago, and found it impossible to accomplish even the simple tasks as he set forth (i.e. complete mental vacancy, complete one-pointed attention, etc.) Like many, I looked at Rawn Clark's stuff, but found that it was his interpretation of Bardon's work. In many cases, I felt like it was making it easier for one to ascend, but I'm not sure this is Bardon's intent. I also found Rawn to be very knowledgeable about his brand of Western occultism, but with many misinformed beliefs about Eastern thought. I don't think one can compare directly different systems. One teacher said it is like nutrition: you can have different systems that all work, but each with its own principles.

 

This is especially true if you don't have the right experiential knowledge. I used to think feeling chi was no more than the vague, fuzzy sensation I feel after sitting/chi kung. Then I had a few experiences of chi that were as real and defined as the table in front of me. It realigns even elementary definitions.

 

As for work on personality, Master Nan, and indeed, all Buddhist practices have a foundation element of following sila, or morality.

[Smile]

 

I was not aware of this invitation.

I think you should go.

I suspect not many people are invited.

My guess from the reaction of people who were sitting at the table, not many. But I'm not interested in that type of training at all. Plus, I'm kind of busy now with a bunch of business projects and writing that takes most of my time. I may go to see him again by the end of this year.

[deci belle]

[NeutralWire]

ForestofSouls -

 

If Bardon's work is no good for you then don't give it another thought. I was exactly that way once myself actually. For me, still sitting worked great as an intro, and is then followed by various practices of which Bardon became King whilst other approaches disappeared. This is the Glenn Morris way.

 

Bardon's work is interesting, but with a major drawback: Bardon is not alive. I worked with his stuff some years ago, and found it impossible to accomplish even the simple tasks as he set forth (i.e. complete mental vacancy, complete one-pointed attention, etc.)

 

This is normal. I have worked on techniques since having the same problem at the start, maybe one day anyone who has these issues I can resolve it, but not yet. The most important thing is determination of course, but you are quite correct -- Rawn's way is just Rawn's way. (Still he began with some years of zazen also, did you know that?)

 

I also understand needing something more immediate. But I must correct you: it is possible to directly compare these systems, because Bardon himself did so. He understood them, remembering former Buddhist lives (and abilities) in perfect detail and seeing the Western equivalents. The elemental balance is not the same as morality and acquiring merit! It is more because it is about balance and centredness -- what Chia's 'fusion' is supposed to produce (but doesn't, so far as I know).

 

But if Bardon doesn't work for you, then forget it! I'm somebody who looks at the cover of 'Key to the True Kabbalah' and gets a feeling like yes, yes, yes... I do shaking trances and still sitting and all kinds of weird stuff as well, but Bardon is King, he answered all my questions.

 

All best wishes,

 

NeutralWire

[Adj]

It seems to me the article is focused around enlightenment. But the reason I am interested in daoist practices is because of LONGEVITY, not enlightened. I believe I am already enlightened. With that said... wouldent energy circulation be beneficial in LONGEVITY to help regulate the body and maintain health?

 

 

Seems to me i can sit around and meditate all day and still die young. Longevity requires a more focused and specialized effort.

 

No?

[Guest sykkelpump]

It seems to me the article is focused around . But the reason I am interested in daoist practices is because of LONGEVITY, not . I believe I am already enlightened. With that said... wouldent energy circulation be beneficial in LONGEVITY to help regulate the body and maintain health?

Seems to me i can sit around and meditate all day and still die young. Longevity requires a more focused and specialized effort.

 

No?

 

I can assure you that you are far from enlightenment.If you was anyway near you wouldnt ask any question here you would know.if you want longevity or to be enlightened or opening third eye or whatever you have to open your chi channels that is common for all spiritual or healing results.keep meditating

Edited January 30, 2009 by sykkelpump

[Adj]

I can assure you that you are far from enlightenment.If you was anyway near you wouldnt ask any question here you would know.if you want longevity or to be enlightened or opening third eye or whatever you have to open your chi channels that is common for all spiritual or healing results.keep meditating

 

Very well, say what you must, but certainly longevity was a science that the Daoists were particularly good at. Their history is littered with people living well over 150 years old.

 

Early Daoists texts said, "If you live to 79 you live a long life" This was the time were sitting meditation and Chi circulation wasnt developed.

 

As the circulation developed and became more of a science you look at the later Daoists texts and they read, "Die at 130 and you die young."

 

I'm -sure- it has a little more direction beyond (and as well as) keeping an empty mind, sexual practices, and being a vegetarian.

 

Maybe not in terms of enlightenment, but certainly in terms health and longevity.

 

Yes?

[JohnC]

why not a balance of both? i don't think there's anything wrong with doing energy work unless you are feeling ill effects. its a meditation in itself so supplementing with deep meditation is a good idea. key is not to get attached to the body and the phenomena that can occur

 

 

I agree.

 

John

[JohnC]

I just read this...

 

Thought it was funny:

 

Energy work vs sitting

[altiora]

I agree.

 

John

 

 

Think that hits the nail on the head really.

 

It all comes down to your reasons for practice. My experience is that qigong goes hand-in-hand with the search for enlightenment quite nicely: it ensures that your body and mind are healthy so that you're more able to devote time to pursuing enlightenment, theosis, yoga etc.

 

To me the practice of qigong started first and foremost about having a healthy body, then I realised it worked, and that in turn opened up the real prospect that we're more than just flesh. And it wasn't much of a journey to start asking the Big Questions about life, morality, relationships and death.

 

My key discovery was that the sort of things that tend to deplete/block my qi are the sorts of things that morality and religion warn us about: thoughts and behaviour that prevent us from recognising that we are more than the little self and that place barriers between us and the big Self or God or Tao etc. That then made me start to examine my daily morality.

 

But I do agree that in this age of the qigong publishing/teaching industry, it is important not to lose focus of the point that if you wish to attain enlightenment, theosis, yoga etc, qigong isn't going to get you there by itself. In fact it could become more of a distraction in making you focus on your body and your ego's capabilities. I found myself getting into that trap too: learning the next flash qigong technique, seeking paranormal powers.

 

And then I asked myself, even if I do learn this new technique, even if I do attain paranormal powers, what does it matter when I die anyway.

[mr R Fairchild]

It's so wonderful to put your attention on some part of the body and in not time at all feel it suddenly becoming lively with the vibrant tingling and warmth of the Energy body, then soon feel this extending beyond the limits of the body while in the same time a rejuvenating stream of energy is finding its way from the place you had your attention before to the part of the body where it's fixed now...

 

Strangely enough, one of the gates to awareness of the energy body is becoming silently aware of the physical body itself since "normally" in the 'solical order' accent is put mostly on the head and the sexual organs (the two extremities of the trunk). Go in any country and look at the leading journals and almost always the themes are "brain", "sex" "sex", brain", or: "sex & the brain" or "the brain and Sex"...

...may-be i'm wrong about this but that's my impression.

 

So, bringing the attention (and thus vibratory awareness of the Energy body, or chi/qi or whatever one may call it) back into the whole body decrowns the exclusivity of the head and awaken the body energetically. To my feeling we can only be grateful to those who have mapped the body energetically.

 

We are trapped in this realm in our bodies and we cannot deny it. I feel our challenge is to reawaken and reclame the full energetic capacities of our bodies and turn them into what they are really: most magical things. Some shaman said once: "all the wonders and magic are in the body itself oyu only gotto calim its powers, it can be a powerful radar, it can be a shotgun, it can lift off piercing through gravity, it can heal others...". It just is not an obstacle.

 

Naturally a physical body should be able to turn into pure energy and back to body by will. But somehow we became trapped into a "solid" phisical vibratory level of worldview and this is not because we have a full awareness of our bodies as a total energetic unit but rather because we haven't.

 

We all know that feeling the energy fibers in the body consistently transcends sooner or later into feeling the energy fibers extending beyond the body: thus matching the fibers without with those within. I'm sure most of you know that from the midsection of man extend fibers that connect man to everything outside and through which you can affect things and matter in sometimes strange ways. A key thing to becoming aware of these fibers in the lower disc is to start by simply 'listening' to the energetc vibrations there or later trying to sense your surroundings from there--just one example of how focussing on a 'local' part of the body can bring awareness of some of the most important features of our energetic beings. Many know about the midsection as simple energy-storing place but that's only one side of it.

Another similar example is developing the sense of the energy fibers of the feet and calves, then intending awareness of extended fibers from there and feeling your surroundings with, let's say, your calves. Like, you can try to sense your neighbours through the wall.

 

All those practices don't mean that they should be practiced amidst mental chatter or with mood of obsession or ambition...

 

Many of us were even OBLIGED to start to purposefully circulate energy and open channels because of disease: there was a problmem IN the body, and as a blessing in disguise, claiming the magical capacities of the body itself became the solution! In the same way: one doesn't need to be sick, but just as sickness is a limitation we may see the "normal-solid-only-worldview-reality" as a limitation and thus get spurred/inspired to re-claim the full magical capacities of our bodies as a total energy unit!

 

The body is there, full of memories, full of judgements, emotions and distortions--all this TRAPPED ENERGY. We need to deal with this and liberate this energy setting the fibers of our bodies luminous with awareness and fluid again. If we don't do this, we can go to our "blissful samadhies" to our hearts content but the moment we get back into our physical bodies we are again the same asshole because of this trapped energy and distorted fibers that program and trigger our routinery responses to the everiday life world outside. So, i feel, it should be seen as a joyfyl challenge that one can't deny or ignore.

 

...i think it's like polishing a concave mirror for a telescope: they do it slowly, delicately and with consistency--every day, every day!

 

Probably it is true that many turn it into a narrow obsession (i get the enrgy to circulate, then i get powers, etc.) but that's not because of working with enegy in the body it is because of our habit to turn everything into an "end" that will justify all our means & "doings"...

 

...i feel it should be left openended, buzzing with "not-doings" rather than "doings", with sense of exploration, awe, elegance and lightness... while consulting the vibratory vibrations of our Being at all times...

 

like some Lao Tzu said (paraphrase): "A good traveller is not intent on arriving.." Kind of like, it's the journey that counts not the destination.

 

If it were the destination that counts then the discourse would be: "oh oh, what do i do to get there! oh tell me what to do give me the phone number of your teacher only he'd know what i need to do to 'get-there'..."

 

All these folks talk about doing this not doing that, but the feeling of the vibration of being is the primordial, if its not there no doing will help. And it's first felt in the energy vortexes of the body...

 

Maybe

it's not what you you're DOING, it's rather how are you BEING

[Mal]

I just read this...

Thought it was funny:

Energy work vs sitting

 

"Go ask your mother"

 

Thanks for sharing, nice re-frame of the issue

[ralis]

It's so wonderful to put your attention on some part of the body and in not time at all feel it suddenly becoming lively with the vibrant tingling and warmth of the Energy body, then soon feel this extending beyond the limits of the body while in the same time a rejuvenating stream of energy is finding its way from the place you had your attention before to the part of the body where it's fixed now...

 

Strangely enough, one of the gates to awareness of the energy body is becoming silently aware of the physical body itself since "normally" in the 'solical order' accent is put mostly on the head and the sexual organs (the two extremities of the trunk). Go in any country and look at the leading journals and almost always the themes are "brain", "sex" "sex", brain", or: "sex & the brain" or "the brain and Sex"...

...may-be i'm wrong about this but that's my impression.

 

So, bringing the attention (and thus vibratory awareness of the Energy body, or chi/qi or whatever one may call it) back into the whole body decrowns the exclusivity of the head and awaken the body energetically. To my feeling we can only be grateful to those who have mapped the body energetically.

 

We are trapped in this realm in our bodies and we cannot deny it. I feel our challenge is to reawaken and reclame the full energetic capacities of our bodies and turn them into what they are really: most magical things. Some shaman said once: "all the wonders and magic are in the body itself oyu only gotto calim its powers, it can be a powerful radar, it can be a shotgun, it can lift off piercing through gravity, it can heal others...". It just is not an obstacle.

 

Naturally a physical body should be able to turn into pure energy and back to body by will. But somehow we became trapped into a "solid" phisical vibratory level of worldview and this is not because we have a full awareness of our bodies as a total energetic unit but rather because we haven't.

 

We all know that feeling the energy fibers in the body consistently transcends sooner or later into feeling the energy fibers extending beyond the body: thus matching the fibers without with those within. I'm sure most of you know that from the midsection of man extend fibers that connect man to everything outside and through which you can affect things and matter in sometimes strange ways. A key thing to becoming aware of these fibers in the lower disc is to start by simply 'listening' to the energetc vibrations there or later trying to sense your surroundings from there--just one example of how focussing on a 'local' part of the body can bring awareness of some of the most important features of our energetic beings. Many know about the midsection as simple energy-storing place but that's only one side of it.

Another similar example is developing the sense of the energy fibers of the feet and calves, then intending awareness of extended fibers from there and feeling your surroundings with, let's say, your calves. Like, you can try to sense your neighbours through the wall.

 

All those practices don't mean that they should be practiced amidst mental chatter or with mood of obsession or ambition...

 

Many of us were even OBLIGED to start to purposefully circulate energy and open channels because of disease: there was a problmem IN the body, and as a blessing in disguise, claiming the magical capacities of the body itself became the solution! In the same way: one doesn't need to be sick, but just as sickness is a limitation we may see the "normal-solid-only-worldview-reality" as a limitation and thus get spurred/inspired to re-claim the full magical capacities of our bodies as a total energy unit!

 

The body is there, full of memories, full of judgements, emotions and distortions--all this TRAPPED ENERGY. We need to deal with this and liberate this energy setting the fibers of our bodies luminous with awareness and fluid again. If we don't do this, we can go to our "blissful samadhies" to our hearts content but the moment we get back into our physical bodies we are again the same asshole because of this trapped energy and distorted fibers that program and trigger our routinery responses to the everiday life world outside. So, i feel, it should be seen as a joyfyl challenge that one can't deny or ignore.

 

...i think it's like polishing a concave mirror for a telescope: they do it slowly, delicately and with consistency--every day, every day!

 

Probably it is true that many turn it into a narrow obsession (i get the enrgy to circulate, then i get powers, etc.) but that's not because of working with enegy in the body it is because of our habit to turn everything into an "end" that will justify all our means & "doings"...

 

...i feel it should be left openended, buzzing with "not-doings" rather than "doings", with sense of exploration, awe, elegance and lightness... while consulting the vibratory vibrations of our Being at all times...

 

like some Lao Tzu said (paraphrase): "A good traveller is not intent on arriving.." Kind of like, it's the journey that counts not the destination.

 

If it were the destination that counts then the discourse would be: "oh oh, what do i do to get there! oh tell me what to do give me the phone number of your teacher only he'd know what i need to do to 'get-there'..."

 

All these folks talk about doing this not doing that, but the feeling of the vibration of being is the primordial, if its not there no doing will help. And it's first felt in the energy vortexes of the body...

 

Maybe

it's not what you you're DOING, it's rather how are you BEING

 

 

I have experienced such things. would you elaborate more?

 

Thanks

 

ralis