Buddhists are funny

[Lozen]

Found an old journal entry from 6/03:

 

"shit, i went to meditation yesterday to try to get my reality together and they were talking about striking a bell, and then said they didn't use that word cos "striking" sounds so violent. but that's what they were doing! striking the bell! they can call it "inviting the bell" but they're still fucking striking it!"

[GrandTrinity]

hahaha, crazy ass buddhas

[peter falk]

Found an old journal entry from 6/03:

 

"shit, i went to meditation yesterday to try to get my reality together  and they were talking about striking a bell, and then said they didn't  use that word cos "striking" sounds so violent. but that's what they  were doing! striking the bell! they can call it "inviting the bell" but  they're still fucking striking it!"

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buddhists? or just hippy posers?

[el_tortugo]

(%)

[neimad]

buddhists?  or just hippy posers?

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what's the difference if you are a westerner and grown up outside of the asian cultural background where buddhism comes from?

 

i don't think it has been around long enough in the western world for all the metaphors and analogies used to describe the various concepts in buddhism to be really clear to 20th-21st century minds.

 

i think a lot of buddhists are actually missing a lot of vital and basic information just because the analogies are so alien to our way of thinking, especially younger people like myself.

 

i believe the heart of buddhism to be true and a great path, but for western practitioners i think comprehension is difficult, even if they believe they comprehend i think it likely they are just struggling with the concepts internally and may even come up with incorrect or slightly off-target interpretations. this, of course, is going to be limiting to their ability to move out of this dimension into others and ultimately touch god or reach nirvana or completeness or oneness or reunite with the source or whatever you really want to call it.

 

just a point of view, from having grown up in a very buddhist house with both parents dedicated practitioners.

[turbo]

Whats the point of studying an ancient religion whose meaning is confused by time and interpretation, when the heart of it has been extracted and is free to experience?

 

dhamma.org

[Lozen]

dhamma.org

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NO NOT VIPASSANA!!! LORD SAVE ME FROM VIPASSANA!!!!!

[turbo]

NO NOT VIPASSANA!!! LORD SAVE ME FROM VIPASSANA!!!!!

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thats buddhist meditation - the heart of the matter

[Lozen]

thats buddhist meditation - the heart of the matter

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goenka is full of shit

[TimBlack]

People are, well, people! Buddhist, Taoists, anyone seeking clarity. Sometimes they fall into these silly little traps and exaggerations. Kinda like when people make a mountain out of a mole hill over something like not saying, "striking" the bell.

Bawaaaaaa!

[Lozen]

Ha ha! I just try not to hang out with people who say things or act in ways that are retarded. I have the same problem with the aikido guys. "I didn't knock him to the ground, I just redirected his energy." Fucking take responsibility for your actions, bell strikers!!

 

People are, well, people! Buddhist, Taoists, anyone seeking clarity. Sometimes they fall into these silly little traps and exaggerations. Kinda like when people make a mountain out of a mole hill over something like not saying, "striking" the bell.

Bawaaaaaa!

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[turbo]

goenka is full of shit

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Hows that?

[GrandTrinity]

goenka is full of shit???????????

 

thats hularious

[Lozen]

the karma stuff is full of shit, the "no you! no i!" is full of shit, the pretending his rituals aren't really rituals even though people are bowing at the TV is full of shit, the third grade morality is full of s hit, trying to accumulate merits is full of shit, i could go on and on and on and on and on. oh. and the "this way is the only way" is full of shit too.

[turbo]

the karma stuff is full of shit, the "no you! no i!" is full of shit, the pretending his rituals aren't really rituals even though people are bowing at the TV is full of shit, the third grade morality is full of s hit, trying to accumulate merits is full of shit, i could go on and on and on and on and on. oh. and the "this way is the only way" is full of shit too.

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ok, so you are saying that buddhism is full of shit then...not just goenka, because those are all buddhist concepts (karma, merits, morality, etc), not goenkan. and even though he says its not buddhism, all he does in the lectures is make a case for it. we allegedly will realize that all of these things are true through the use of the technique. the technique is valuable, at least to me, keeps me mellow.

bowing to the tv? that a shallow interpretation. the message, the intent is whats being shown respect, not the tv. otherwise people would be bowing at the tape recorder, or at the tape recorder operator, when the assistant teacher puts in a lot more effort than just puching play every so often.

 

also, what evidnece do you have that this way is not the only way? for all anybody knows he could be right, he could be wrong. perhaps there is no way and were all wasting our time that we could be enjoying doing things besides "spiritual" practices.

[Lozen]

I think Zen Buddhism is not full of shit. Not sure about the rest of Buddhism. I do think it's amusing that people think they are morally superior by being pacifists while other people die so they can practice their selfish religion.

 

for a guy who makes fun of people doing rituals, saying saddhu three times and bowing at the tv... well if you don't understand the criticism you prolly never will.

 

i have no evidence his way is not the only way. i put it on him to prove that it is.

[turbo]

I think Zen Buddhism is not full of shit. Not sure about the rest of Buddhism. I do think it's amusing that people think they are morally superior by being pacifists while other people die so they can practice their selfish religion.

 

for a guy who makes fun of people doing rituals, saying saddhu three times and bowing at the tv... well if you don't understand the criticism you prolly never will.

 

i have no evidence his way is not the only way. i put it on him to prove that it is.

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So Zen Busshism, is maybe partly shit then, just not full of it? I dont know where you started on selfish religions from.

 

The emphasis in on blind rituals, and bowing at the tv, while it is ritualistic, it is not a concious ritual preformed blindly in hopes of accumulating merit with some deity. Bowing at the tv shows respect for the teacher/message, as much as cheering at the tv shows support for your team. if not a sign of respect then it is a sign of self definition, as in, by taking this bow and repeating these words i define myself as supporting or being in line with these thoughts and ideas, much like wearing a t-shirt defines you as a fan of the team that you cheer at the tv for.

 

I think the point is that walking around an altar three times with sandalwood incense in one hand while the other hand in some esoteric mudra and chanting some dietly name at exactly 6:30 am on alternate mondays, is not going to get you any cloaser to god. Neither is bowing at a tv and saying saddhu, and while both can be percieved as rituals, bowing at the tv has a meaning beyond a machine like performance of instructions.

 

Rituals...an interesting topic to digress upon...so can a series of qigong movements be considered a ritual?

 

Also, what evidence do you seek to satisfy yourself that any way is the way?

[mbanu]

Ha ha! I just try not to hang out with people who say things or act in ways that are retarded. I have the same problem with the aikido guys. "I didn't knock him to the ground, I just redirected his energy." Fucking take responsibility for your actions, bell strikers!!

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Water and Earth type mentalities vs. Wood type.

 

Water and Earth types dislike conflict, sadly sometimes to the point of being oblivious or avoidant.

 

Wood types tend to have the opposite problem, taking the direct approach when tact would have worked better, having trouble "waiting quietly while the mud settles" so to speak.

 

Not sure if it applies, but the "poser hippie" type practicioner you find in the US is invariably a natural Earth type or a drug-induced Water type. Not to disrespect those types, the "poser hippie" is one of the pitfalls one can become trapped in while practicing. For instance most of the "I'm into Taoism to punch nails into boards with my penis and have anal sex with hippie chicks" types are maladapted Wood mentalities.

 

They're examples of the sort of pitfalls each type has most trouble with, not necessarily an example of that type being successful in their practice.

 

 

In this case though, I'd agree with you. If they're making up avoidant euphemisms, they're letting their own desires prevent them from confronting reality.

[Lozen]

It is the fake nicey nice Buddhists that really get to me. They are yin excess and underneath that is just this irate yang they are desperately trying to supress. So they are really really sweet and pleasant until you diss their guru, and then they just explode.

 

I guess I like some of the ideas in Buddhism but could do without most of them. I got a LOT from Chod yesterday, even while not believing in the karma etc. etc.

 

Bowing at the TV, etc. made me uncomfortable when I signed up for a ten-day class they said would not be ritualistic or religious. I am Jewish so I don't even bow to people, let alone televisions. When I was taking classes at Diamond Mtn. I would stand when Geshe Michael entered the room, but I would not bow. I don't think people are conscious of the intent of respect when they bow at televisions, I think they just fall into the habit. And same with the weird chanting they do. Nobody could even understand the shit cos it was in Sanskrit or something.

 

I think people can use rituals to strengthen their spiritual practices but when you tell people there aren't going to be any, and then there are, it is problematic.

 

Also I thought it was funny when Goenke said that anybody who disagreed with him was like a child who thought that the raisins in his pudding were rocks, and they should just take out the raisins and eat the pudding, those poor disillusioned children.

 

I think a series of qigong rituals can be considered a ritual. It depends on your INTENT and FOCUS. Why is it that I took marial arts for years and yet my boxing teacher tells me I don't know how to punch? How is it that people memorize katas and don't know what the moves are actually meant to do?

 

>Also, what evidence do you seek to satisfy yourself that any way is the way?

 

The way for what? I just do what works.

[Lozen]

BUT one more thing, CHOD is NOT full of shit and I have no idea how, but it works really amazingly well somehow.

 

http://www.dharmafellowship.org/library/essays/chod.htm

 

http://www.vajrayanahawaii.org/teachings/chod.html

[turbo]

Bowing at the TV, etc. made me uncomfortable when I signed up for a ten-day class they said would not be ritualistic or religious.

 

I think people can use rituals to strengthen their spiritual practices but when you tell people there aren't going to be any, and then there are, it is problematic.

 

Also I thought it was funny when Goenke said that anybody who disagreed with him was like a child who thought that the raisins in his pudding were rocks, and they should just take out the raisins and eat the pudding, those poor disillusioned children.

 

I think a series of qigong rituals can be considered a ritual. It depends on your INTENT and FOCUS. Why is it that I took marial arts for years and yet my boxing teacher tells me I don't know how to punch? How is it that people memorize katas and don't know what the moves are actually meant to do?

 

>Also, what evidence do you seek to satisfy yourself that any way is the way?

 

The way for what? I just do what works.

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Well, ritual is a strong word for bowing, in the case of a 10 day meditaton course. What seems more ritualistic is the opening day. However, once you get home and practice the meditation none of that exists, there is no ritual to perform. So, while in the strictest definition bowing at the tv may be ritualistic, you still have the freewill to bow or not, and nobody will say anything to you whatever you choose;).

 

If you apply your intent and focus parameter to the bowing at the tv in the context of a 10 day course, then I think if falls out of the definition of ritual, as most people are doing it because everyone else around them is, not because they are expecting some spiritual benefit, or to please some diety.

 

The non religious claim is silly, the course is a primer in buddhism. I couldnt take it during the last course and had to leave half way through. All goenka does is pump buddhist ideas at everyone hoping some of it will stick.

 

But if you can seperate the technique from all that, then its valuable and beneficial to practice.

 

Why cant you puch in a way that satisfies an american boxer after studying martial arts? Thats pretty obvious and I dont practice either.

 

Why do people memorize _____ even though they dont know what its meant to do? The are told to, they think it will make them better, they think that chicks/guys will like them more if they do, they think they can kick somebodys ass if they do, they think that they can keep from getting their ass kicked by doing so, etc...mosty because they are ignorant and are hapy to remain that way. Why do people eat food that kills them, without reading the labels and/or research the effects of the chemicals they put in their bodies? You can ask the same question a lot of different ways and get the same answers.

 

That has nothing to do with rituals in my opinion. Thats just behaving the way weve been trained to do.

 

The way...the way to enlighenment, or to spiritual advancement. What is it that lets you know that you have found a the way? Since spirituality in purely subjective, how can you know that there is even a way? And if you know how can you express it objectively, so that someone else will be convinced beyond all doubt that you, or your method/technique/practice is a way that could lead them to enlighrenment? Is it possible to do so? And if not then that puts the necessity of it into question, since we can objectively demonstrate anything else, from pictures of the cosmos, to atomic subpartices, and everything in between. So perhaps we are all just tools practicing our rituals of meditaton or yoga or qigong or whatever else you desire in an effort to realize that we are who we are and that we dont need any of it, which we could realize if we just took it easy and lived life. Alas I ramble...

 

Look forward to hearing from you...

 

t

[neimad]

a couple of problem with buddhists... in my opinion from growing up in with serious practicioner buddhist parents.

 

1. they are studying a philosophy/religion with concepts that are discussed through metaphors and analogies that were designed for an entirely different culture thousands of years ago. can they everytime really understand the concept through the examples given? when discussing spiritual concepts, examples must always be given because you just cannot explain it in any other way, and the examples are always metaphors and analogies.

in short it's outdated and designed for people who thought differently at a different time. we are 20th and 21st century people in a high stress high technology lifestyle. we need metaphors and analogies that work in that way. not to say that there aren't teachers out there who are applying that, but on a whole thats just the way the religion is.

 

2. the same problem with all organised religions is that the people into it close themselves off to other ways of thinking about things. they no longer look at other examples from other spiritual teachers outside of their religion... they just view what they study to be right (you kind of have to to feel like you are going anywhere) and don't want to see or think about anything else when looking at a wide variety of ways of explaining concepts will more likely help you to understand them better.

buddhists become buddhists and identify themselves with a religion thus creating another tie to this dimension that will eventually have to be cut in order to go onwards.

not saying all buddhists are like this, but from my parents and their circle of friends this is my impression.

 

3. buddhists interfere in other peoples spiritual development.

one of the main teaching in buddhism is compassion, or empathy. which is a really cool teaching to get into. however buddhists go a little far in this respect in that they kind of take a vowe not to leave the universe/become enlightened/reunite with god/discover the one/whatever you want to call it, until everyone else does. seems noble.... but other peoples paths are just that... other peoples paths! what other people do and the way they progress and their spiritual evolution is entirely their own choice. wherever a person is in this lifetime is where they need to be to grow.

there is no need to interfere in another persons growth. just focus on your own and doing that will undoubtadely help everyone around you who chooses to be helped anyways. no need to go out of your way, everyone is right where they need to be right now.

observation is power, judgement is weakness.

 

4. karma.

buddhists notion of karma is so strange.... however i think it relates to the first problem i discussed. the examples don't apply to the way our minds think and thus it doesn't really make sense properly. i think that the way most buddhists view karma might actually be a kind of wrong way of looking at it all. however im not an expert on it but i do have my own opinions... and those of the buddhists just don't make sense, no matter how much i try to stretch my mind around. i think that in order to believe some of the concepts in buddhism you really have to completely flip flop your thinking around... which may not be the best thing.

 

5. existence is suffering.

sure you can give me the four noble truths all day... but if you view living as suffering, then thats what it's gonna be! it's not really such a nice thing to go around living with.... thinking that you are just suffering all the time and have to get away from it.

sure there is plenty of suffering. and sure you can give me the argument that what you think is happiness is just less suffering. but personally i just choose not to look at it that way, i would rather consider existence to be about experience, not about suffering. you experience death, disease, old age, anger, depression, etc. and you learn from every single one of these experiences, you learn something valuable that takes you further towards your goal.

 

 

anyways just a few ideas from me. i guess a buddhist is really a buddhist because that is what they need for their own growth, it just doesn't do it for ME doesn't mean to say it's not right or whatever.

i hold no judgement. everyone is free to do think and say whatever they like, as far as i am concerned.

[TimBlack]

1) I too have had some problems with some Buddhists. However, I think it is in scope or measurement statistically equal to the measure of problems I have had with non Buddhists. Regardless, the metaphors and analogies differ with the tradition, don't you think? The point is, what is learned through Buddhist practice is beyond words and is understood in a way beyond description thus the anaologies and metaphors are like a finger pointing at the moon. People can get hung up on the finger (metaphors and analogies) and never see the moon.

2) Organized religions are as you point out, I agree. (ha-ha For what that's worth ) but I find that the Zen Buddhists are more akin to us Taoists (duh) and many of the others are too self absorbed - Which is neither good nor bad, but it's kinda selfish at times, not compassionate!

3) Maybe this is more about you and your parents than what is being said.

4) The view of Karma is most often misunderstood and varies according to tradition. Quite literally, if you eat like a pig you'll look like one. What you do "now" shapes your tomorrow. Nothing difficult about that!

5) Existance is suffering....well, it's kinda like driving a cart with square wheels over a long distance. Could be much better. That's what the eightfold path is trying to teach. The focus on suffering is only the springboard to launch you into awareness. We all grow old, all suffer loss, get sick, die. Buddhism teaches that this is natural and what we all experience. No need to fret. The path teaches you to live the only reality - right now..There is nothing else...

That's my perspective anyway...

 

 

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