Chen Taiji within I-Chuan

[Pranaman]

my teacher, Gregory Fong, believes in I-chuan. He teaches Chen and Yang style Taiji, as well as Praying Mantis Kung-fu. The thing is, he teaches I-chuan fundamentals in all classes. The Chen form he teaches, is the Chen form, but it includes all these really fast pop-and-locks, twitches, and waves to re-sort and relax the muscles he just used, in preparation to use the muscles required for the next movement. One of the more experienced people in class mentioned that truely we are learning I-chuan, not Taiji. Sifu Fong and others in his class seem fulfilled, happy, respectful, and confident. I know this is part of my path. But now I want to learn more about I-chuan and it's effects on the mind and spirit.

 

Also, I hear is going to start making a shift from Kung-Fu to Hsing-I, which would be sweet. I wish he taught bagua cause he does know it, that's ultimately what I want to learn.

[Mal]

is the Chen form, but it includes all these really fast pop-and-locks, twitches, and waves to re-sort and relax the muscles he just used, in preparation to use the muscles required for the next movement.

 

sounds like you are describing fa jing. Chen style is not all slow movements at one speed like Yang style it has explosive fast movements as well as slow ones.

 

Sifu Fong and others in his class seem fulfilled, happy, respectful, and confident.

 

An excellent sign of a good practice.

[Spectrum]

The Chen form he teaches, is the Chen form, but it includes all these really fast pop-and-locks, twitches, and waves to re-sort and relax the muscles he just used, in preparation to use the muscles required for the next movement. One of the more experienced people in class mentioned that truely we are learning I-chuan, not Taiji.

 

Again excellent observations.

[Mal]

Fa jing example. (static audio so turn the volume down a bit)

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Since I'm using Erle's video I should clarify my absolute to some Yangs styles have explosive movements too

[The Cloudwalking Owl]

All tajiquan uses these techniques. The problem is that the overwhelming majority of practitioners only learn the initial stages of taijiquan for health promotion. I learned from a school that teaches pretty much only to senior citizens and people who don't even know it is a martial art. But I ended up being taught how to break fall, use weapons, absorb punches, do "live push hands", etc. (Alas, I'm not terribly good at any of this, but that's me.)

 

I think it is important to think of taijiquan as something like a canvas that the student and teacher use to paint their own picture upon. The moves can be kicks, blocks, joint locks, etc. They can also be ways of massaging your internal organs and working on the mind. As the Karate master Kim used to say "The man makes the art, the art does not make the man."

[mouse]

Fa jing example. (static audio so turn the volume down a bit)

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Since I'm using Erle's video I should clarify my absolute to some Yangs styles have explosive movements too

 

 

Taiji practitioners should be able to discern wai4-jin4 from nei4-jin4. Wai Jin has its place and application but is not considered Taiji. It is a striking art and is used for fighting.

 

Neijin is something quite different where you're dealing with energetics. Any force or strike landing on the body is relaxed down and grounded into the earth through proper structure and alignment. If the level of practitioner is high, you can empty out further energy into emptiness as grounding can only neutralise so much.

 

Being focused on wai-jin, is to be considered a lesser path. Just like iron robe done by tensing. There is only so much you can do with lower techniques.

 

The nature of lower paths is that they are also easier to achieve yet can only take you so far.

 

Enjoy your practice.

[Pranaman]

Taiji practitioners should be able to discern wai4-jin4 from nei4-jin4. Wai Jin has its place and application but is not considered Taiji. It is a striking art and is used for fighting.

 

Neijin is something quite different where you're dealing with energetics. Any force or strike landing on the body is relaxed down and grounded into the earth through proper structure and alignment. If the level of practitioner is high, you can empty out further energy into emptiness as grounding can only neutralise so much.

 

Are you saying erle is dealing with Wai Jin?

 

My teacher has spoke of your energy going through the ground, as opposed to creating resistance with yourself (in reference to punching).

 

Also, I believe that what Sifu Fong is doing is slightly different than the fa jin he also teaches, but all because his muscles will twitch during what looks like a time of rest, and every last muscle to the toes is reorganized between the movements which iare sometimes fa jin.

Edited August 9, 2008 by Pranaman

[mouse]

Are you saying erle is dealing with Wai Jin?

 

My teacher has spoke of your energy going through the ground, as opposed to creating resistance with yourself (in reference to punching).

 

Also, I believe that what Sifu Fong is doing is slightly different than the fa jin he also teaches, but all because his muscles will twitch during what looks like a time of rest, and every last muscle to the toes is reorganized between the movements which iare sometimes fa jin.

 

 

Pranaman,

 

Fa1 means to express or in this case, issue.

 

Nei jin means internal jin, wai means external jin. In martial art circles, many external styles will employ wai jin, which is good. It is a refined use of muscular and struture to issue force. Even boxers exploy wai jin. The pushing off the ground, turning of hips etc for the jab or hook etc is a refined method of punching. It is efficient.

 

However, many get caught up in the physical state and over time never get around to learning internal or (nei jin). And over time they never progress pass that level and start teaching based on that model.

 

I won't go further into Erle's techniques and his background as I feel it will be a waste of time . All I have to say is that be discerning with whats out there on the internet. Erle for one is not a "teacher" who you should pay any mind to.

 

As I have mentioned before for your teacher, Pranaman. His writings are good and although I have never met him, he has a sound technical basis from what he presents. You should refer all queries you have to him as he has walked the path before. Never be afraid to ask questions of your teacher. If he is genuine, he will answer you honestly and ernestlyto guide you in the right direction.

 

Watching how your teacher conducts himself is a lesson in itself. You can learn a lot from there. Good luck.

 

Enjoy your practice.

 

PS: Try not to mix too many practices for a start. Is easy to get excited in the beginning but you must have a solid foundation to begin with. At 19, you've got a huge headstart on many who pursue internal arts.

[Pranaman]

thank you. As you agree i'm sure, many including I have found little value in online videos. I could have downloaded a video for taiji two years ago, and would be farther behind than my month and a half experience has put me. No way could I push myself the way my teacher has taught me to push myself, if I learned from a video. I already notice clearer energy channels, a calmer more creative mind, stronger healthier body, and a new passion.

 

by the way, how do you pronounce nei jin in romanized form?

[mouse]

[Mal]

Erle for one is not a "teacher" who you should pay any mind to.

 

I hear that a LOT, but have not heard an explanation of why he is not a good teacher........

 

Not that it really matters, never met Erle myself. But I have played with Tai Chi students from his system and they can all fight well, and arguing kung fu over the net is pointless because you can't feel it

 

Personally my Sifu has us learn Tai Chi specifically for it's health aspects (Which is why we practice a traditional Yang style) which we need to counteract / complement / complete our Tong Long.

 

p.s. Why is the guy in the orange shirt jumping backwards?

[Pranaman]

p.s. Why is the guy in the orange shirt jumping backwards?

 

cause he's getting pushed, I think he might be adding a little upward motion so he his feet don't catch on the floor due to the suprisingly immense amount of force pushing him back. A part of yiquan is taking the most powerful movements, and making them the littlest movements without a loss of power. Yiquan is amazing, so subtle, so powerful.

 

I usually wouldn't believe such a video, but every once in a while when my form and movement is just right, i'll feel the energy shoot up through my feet, my legs, my hips, my lower torso, my torso, my arms, and into my hands. That's when I get lucky cause i've only been learning for a month and a half. I figure if I can notice that in a month and half, probably a 600th (if he's been practicing 50 years) of the range of time he's practiced, and since i only practice about 30 minutes a day, besides two hours on monday and wednesday.... He has legitimately developed the amazing ability of empowering the force that I rarely feel. But that's just IMO and IME.

Edited August 10, 2008 by Pranaman

[mouse]

I won't go too much into the theories as I've expounded too many times already. I'll just let Sifu Adam Mizner explain in his own words. (0:38)

 

 

 

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It really isn't a push... The grounding causes the opponent's center to rise energetically basically making him float. There is a very fine point where you issue. The bigger your issue or the more you express it physically the more pronounced it is. Issuing on a person whos enegetic root is severed is like throwing a ball. It is effortless.

 

The opponent was bouncing back in that video because the issue was through the center (both energetic and physical). The frame/structure cannot be yielded or collapsed as the center was lost hence the pop off the ground.

 

Usually those with good rooting will pop off the ground if being issued upon. Those with poor structure will just collapse at wherever the weak link is. Where the energy "kinks".

 

I won't talk about Erle anymore as well as it isn't important. If people cannot see past the BS presented then they may choose to use him as reference. Not much point trying to explain because it will just be a merry go round.

 

Enjoy your practice.

 

mouse

[Mal]

I won't talk about Erle anymore as well as it isn't important. If people cannot see past the BS presented then they may choose to use him as reference. Not much point trying to explain because it will just be a merry go round.

 

That seems to be the usually response Although I object to "BS presented" I agree it isn't really that important I just want to understand why he is so disliked by so many people. But I suspect its something you need to feel rather than talk about.

 

But it's all good, enjoy your practice too and thanks for the cool 2nd video I liked that one a lot more.

[mouse]

That seems to be the usually response Although I object to "BS presented" I agree it isn't really that important I just want to understand why he is so disliked by so many people. But I suspect its something you need to feel rather than talk about.

 

But it's all good, enjoy your practice too and thanks for the cool 2nd video I liked that one a lot more.

 

 

Mal,

 

As said before I won't go into it further. If you wish more explaination we can PM.

 

If you're in Australia, you may want to meet with Sifu Adam or his instructors if you have the chance as they are having a seminar soon.

 

As you're trained in tong long, you may enjoy this bit. (1:42) The opponent is sarm bo pai tarn level in tong long and was told to attack at full speed and power with anything he wanted.

 

 

 

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Enjoy your practice.

[Mal]

As you're trained in tong long, you may enjoy this bit. (1:42) The opponent is sarm bo pai tarn level in tong long and was told to attack at full speed and power with anything he wanted.

 

Thanks Mouse, I did enjoy it. Strange enough I'm learning sarm bo pai tarn now I think I even recognised the jong he attempted. Although all schools teach the jongs differently and he didn't actually get very far hahaha.

(not laughing AT anyone I just enjoyed the video)

 

Did you have any contacts for Sifu Adam? I've found http://www.heavenmanearth.com so can just use that.

 

Would a person be able to "take home" much from a one day seminar? I tend to need a LOT of correction in calss and I think I might need a bit of prepatary stance work to get the most out of a seminar.

 

Still it would be cool to tell my Sifu I got my sat on my arse by a Tai Chi player.

 

Cheers

[mouse]

Thanks Mouse, I did enjoy it. Strange enough I'm learning sarm bo pai tarn now I think I even recognised the jong he attempted. Although all schools teach the jongs differently and he didn't actually get very far hahaha.

(not laughing AT anyone I just enjoyed the video)

 

Did you have any contacts for Sifu Adam? I've found http://www.heavenmanearth.com so can just use that.

 

Would a person be able to "take home" much from a one day seminar? I tend to need a LOT of correction in calss and I think I might need a bit of prepatary stance work to get the most out of a seminar.

 

Still it would be cool to tell my Sifu I got my sat on my arse by a Tai Chi player.

 

Cheers

 

 

Mal,

 

You can use the email on the website to reach him through his assistant as he has a busy schedule and prefers to live in seclusion to practice.

 

If you are in QLD, just give Nicholas Karaam a call, he is Sifu Adam's top instructor and the "Tai Chi player" in the video. His mobile number is on the website.

 

If you're in Melbourne you can give Andy a call. Number also on website.

 

With the seminars we try to have as many instructors around as possible and also try to keep the groups small so that everyone gets proper attention.

 

There are lots of "take home" things regardless of your style. Best to bring a notepad to write down or you'll forget. Also, ask as many questions as you want if time permits. There are no secrets in training, only effort and technique.

 

As for having your arse being sat on, don't worry about it. We're practitioners not fighters. You can see that the person was just being rebounded and not hurt. Ego might be hurt but only if you are not there to learn.

 

Enjoy your practice.

 

mouse

[Mal]

[mouse]

Mal,

 

Great. Cameron has good Taiji. You should be looking for Nick if you're in Townsville. Unless there is a Townsville in NSW I'm not aware of.

 

Cameron heads up the teaching in Sydney. Nic runs the school in QLD if thats the state you're from.

 

Either way, both can point you in the right direction.

 

Enjoy your practice.

 

mouse

 

PS: Keeping notes is a very good habit. Saves guess work after and gives you pointers during your own practice.

[guangping]

The best book in explaining yiquan is The Way of Energy by Lam Kam Chuen, available through Amazon.

 

I Chuan teaches rooting very well, and is applicable to all martial arts, like Red Bull... When someone is going to strike you, tai chi and I Chuan teahes you how to neutralize the energy of the strike and direct it into the ground. If your root is good, you won't be moved, and can then take that energy back up through your body and reflect it back at them.