Is wing chun internal?

[Pranaman]

Is wing chun a discipline that would compliment my taiji/yiquan and does it have the same subtle body affects?

[mouse]

Is wing chun a discipline that would compliment my taiji/yiquan and does it have the same subtle body affects?

 

 

Pranaman,

 

Depends who you learn it from. Wing Chun is an internal art just like Taiji if you have proper instruction. Structure, alignment, body movement, energetics, touching center are all same principles.

 

Here is a clip on chi sau done with true internal methods. It does not look like your normal slash and bash very impressive looking chi sau but this due to the opponents "feeling" the energetic center of each other. Issue is relaxed and only done when touching center through sensitivity. Never guess work or letting out random combos hoping one will hit.

 

 

 

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I personally do not train in Wing Chun but internal arts all run on the same principles.

 

Again, build your foundation before running off looking to other systems.

 

Enjoy your practice.

 

mouse

[林愛偉]

Yes Wing Chun is an Internal System of Fighting, but to train the internal aspect you need a teacher to show you exactly what mouse stated: "Structure, alignment, body movement, energetics, touching center are all same principles."

 

AND you will need to learn Precise positioning, how to strike without carrying your strength, the most important is FOOTWORK. Not every Wing Chun family out there has even close to decent footwork, so their internal isn't internal, its just striking, pushing and effortful movements...

 

Wing Chun has an economy of motion principle. This principle is based on footwork and practicality. Utilized correctly will blow the opponent away. Unrealized footwok would leave the Wing Chun man overpowered, or left to the dogs...haha

 

The clip of the Chisau wasn't internal. It was Chi Sau but showed more Taiji Quan stepping than Wing Chun, and the rolling of the hands was more geared towards a push hands likeness than actual Chisau. Real internal Chisau is when there is proper redirection of force by small cuts and shifts with the hips and alignments with the joints and spine. When hit the energy is enormous, and the technique used doesn't seem like much. It will be fast because in fighting everything is fast, but utilizing muscular pushing and swinging techniques without the body properly aligned behind it is not internal cultivation.

 

That video had internal to it, but it wasn't proper Chisau in that respects, more a mixture of Taiji Quan principles. Internal application doesn't have to always resemble Taiji Quan's principles.. haha It seems that people want everything to look like Taiji Quan, and even mutate Wing Chun to do it. You can't mix Taiji Quan and Wing Chun. Its irresponsible. Taiji Quan and Wing Chun are two complete systems, meaning they have their practical principles and theories...they have a science behind them. You can't mix the two, but you can respectfully learn them. Only in transitioning between techniques will applications look similar...nothing more.

 

A hit is a hit, a push a push. But when proper focus and positioning/application is behind it all, though it is still a push and a hit, it holds more power.

 

Wing Chun is more direct than Taiji Quan. Ultimately in Taiji Quan cultivation, you don't want to hurt the person, but utilize his force to subdue him. Wing Chun is geared for breaking, disabling, ending the confrontation in at least 3 moves if not 2. A 20 minute fight would be 10 seconds with Wing Chun...IF THE PERSON KNEW WHAT THEY WERE DOING.

 

Peace,

Lin

Edited August 10, 2008 by 林愛偉

[林愛偉]

Is wing chun a discipline that would compliment my taiji/yiquan and does it have the same subtle body affects?

 

 

Wing Chun will enhance your foot work for Taiji Quan, strengthen your rooting abilities and allow you to realize how to cut the circle, and uitilize technique on straight forward angular attacks and defenses. You will gain sensitivity training in Wing Chun that will break taiji Quan's circular defense, short distance striking power that takes years to develop with Taiji Quan will be attained with proper Wing Chun training.

 

Peace,

Lin

Edited August 10, 2008 by 林愛偉

[mouse]

 

 

The clip of the Chisau wasn't internal. It was still using pushing force, still using muscle. Real internal Chisau is when there is proper redirection of force by small cuts and shifts with the hips and alignments with the joints and spine. When hit the energy is enormous, and the technique used doesn't seem like much. It will be fast because in fighting everything is fast, but utilizing muscular pushing and swinging techniques without the body properly aligned behind it is not internal cultivation. That video had none.

 

 

 

Lin,

 

It does not look like your typical chi sau as they cultivate yielding, neutralising into their structure from their Taiji background this is not prevalent in the traditional Wing Chun where they prefer to use refined axial rotation more.

 

The reason for the difference in training is that they are Buddhist and carry their martial art as part of their practice as well. Dissapating the force, rather than striking to harm the opponent. All part of relinquishing and letting go.

 

It is definately internal and you can see that they feed the opponents energy into the spring to issue.

 

I am talking outside my scope now as I do not practice wing chun so I shall stop.

 

Enjoy your practice.

 

mouse

[林愛偉]

Lin,

 

It does not look like your typical chi sau as they cultivate yielding, neutralising into their structure from their Taiji background this is not prevalent in the traditional Wing Chun where they prefer to use refined axial rotation more.

 

The reason for the difference in training is that they are Buddhist and carry their martial art as part of their practice as well. Dissapating the force, rather than striking to harm the opponent. All part of relinquishing and letting go.

 

It is definately internal and you can see that they feed the opponents energy into the spring to issue.

 

I am talking outside my scope now as I do not practice wing chun so I shall stop.

 

Enjoy your practice.

 

mouse

 

 

I understand your take on it Not attacking you at all, just want to be clear on these points

 

Wing Chun was made from Buddhist Monks! But not for being nice to people. You can take the compassionate road and be soft, but mixing in Taiji Quan is not the way. Wing Chun has all of that in there...like I said, its a complete system. You don't have to hurt the person if you don't want to, and that takes control, and cultivation of no-self so as not to show off!.

 

I too cultivate Buddhism, and cultivate Wing Chun and Taiji Quan. Yet, I don't mix Taiji Quan's principles there because I know that Wing Chun has it as well, just a different structure.

 

As for the video, hehe.. one can't change Wing Chun's structure for the sake of being soft. One changes their mind, then, the structure of body follows. If they change the structure and call it Wing Chun, its not Wing Chun.. It is a hybrid, and holds no true semblance to its proper origin just like Jeet Kune Do.

 

Peace,

Lin

Edited August 10, 2008 by 林愛偉

[Taiji-student]

Hey Lin, you seem very knowledgeable about Wing Chun. I appreciate your insights. I have always been interested in cross-training in wing chun. Do you know of any school, teacher or organization in Europe training wing chun along the principles you mention?

 

Alternatively an international location with a possibility for live-in training?

[林愛偉]

Hey Lin, you seem very knowledgeable about Wing Chun. I appreciate your insights. I have always been interested in cross-training in wing chun. Do you know of any school, teacher or organization in Europe training wing chun along the principles you mention?

 

Alternatively an international location with a possibility for live-in training?

 

 

Well, my student is in Germany, but he only trained for 2 months under me while I lived in China.

He's good for 2 months, almost everyday training, but he only has 2 months. He already beat up a top disciple of a gov. sanctioned Wing Chun school.. haha Long Story.

 

Other than my student in Germany.. there is my other student, the German's gongfu brother, in Israel. He was with me for a year, and has 1st and 2nd forms, and Chisau. He can't offer living space though.. not sure.

 

Peace,

Lin

[Taiji-student]

Thanks a lot Lin, I'll be in touch for specifics eventually, I believe some foundational Wing Chun training would be a very valuable experience for me (or anyone else).

 

Pardon me all for distracting from the discussion originally at hand

[mjjbecker]

Please don't tell me taijiquan is not direct, quick to learn or be effective in. I taught a work colleague a technique that he used to put someone over a public bench that had attacked him. This was in the street outside of a bar and my colleague had a pint of beer in his hand at the time. I spent less than five minutes teaching him how to do the technique.

 

So, fight over in one move. Not twenty minutes, nor two or three moves. I don't recall if any beer was spilt though.

 

Of course, the ability of the teacher and the knowledge of the school is important, (I'm NOT referring to ME here, but rather my teacher and his lineage). Many, if not most, taijiquan schools have precious little understanding of the martial side.

 

The idea that taijiquan is not direct or only interested in subduing the opponent...oh Lord. In my experience it has some of the most vicious maiming and killing techniques you could hope to find. It is a form of close quarter combat par excellence. I doubt the Manchu bannermen would have used it otherwise.

 

I once showed a student in Greece how to overcome Wing Chun's 'direct' approach using taiji's 'circular' approach. No, he wasn't a friend and yes, he came at me as fast as he could. Being a nice chap I didn't crush his windpipe as the technique was designed to do.

 

I don't claim to be an expert, but I DID use to teach taijiquan...

 

Best,

 

Mike

 

 

 

Is wing chun a discipline that would compliment my taiji/yiquan and does it have the same subtle body affects?

 

PRACTICE would compliment your taiji/yiquan. If you actually DO some instead of wondering about every other thing there is out there. You really could do with getting some FOCUS. I think we've had this discussion before...

 

You have enough to be getting on with, to keep you busy for HOURS every day. How about a few hours of standing and form practice a day while you aren't doing your class? It will take you a lot further than collecting a myriad of techniques.

 

Less is more.

 

Best,

 

Mike

[林愛偉]

Please don't tell me taijiquan is not direct, quick to learn or be effective in. I taught a work colleague a technique that he used to put someone over a public bench that had attacked him. This was in the street outside of a bar and my colleague had a pint of beer in his hand at the time. I spent less than five minutes teaching him how to do the technique.

 

So, fight over in one move. Not twenty minutes, nor two or three moves. I don't recall if any beer was spilt though.

 

Of course, the ability of the teacher and the knowledge of the school is important, (I'm NOT referring to ME here, but rather my teacher and his lineage). Many, if not most, taijiquan schools have precious little understanding of the martial side.

 

The idea that taijiquan is not direct or only interested in subduing the opponent...oh Lord. In my experience it has some of the most vicious maiming and killing techniques you could hope to find. It is a form of close quarter combat par excellence. I doubt the Manchu bannermen would have used it otherwise.

 

I once showed a student in Greece how to overcome Wing Chun's 'direct' approach using taiji's 'circular' approach. No, he wasn't a friend and yes, he came at me as fast as he could. Being a nice chap I didn't crush his windpipe as the technique was designed to do.

 

I don't claim to be an expert, but I DID use to teach taijiquan...

 

Best,

 

Mike

 

Very good. Not every Wing Chun and Taiji practitioner is good at what they do. There re many quick handed techniques in both Taiji and Wing Chun. In practice and most applications out there...Taiji Quan isn't direct. Its originally, not among the majority nowadays. That's why I said what I said.

 

One man's success isn't the face of the whole system. There are many factors involved, and just for the sake of it, both Taiji Quan and Wing Chun hold similar principles. If the Wing Chun man is too fixed in posture (Fighting by the book recipes) then anything a skilled fighter would do, will overwhelm him.

 

Just to clear up the 2 to 3 moves statement... utilizing a technique has many applications. I count a move as application. A hit to the face following a hit to the collar bone is 2 techniques, two moves.

 

Good :

 

Peace,

Lin

[jan1107]

hi,

 

there is a lama in england who teaches qi gong, tai chi, wing chung, aikido and other martial arts. i dont know if he is any good as a teacher. i heard good things and pretty bad things about him but never met him and most likely never will because i am very happy with what i got. i wont post what i heard because it is not first hand and so find out for yourselve if he is interesting for you.

 

before everybody will discuss if the stuff on the videos is possible or not ... i read in a forum that people called at his school and asked. the answer was as i remember that he only does it with energetically open students.

if you want to find a traditional wing chung teacher i guess he his not the right one. he seems to mix, too, but again i do not know because i didnt check him out more closely.

 

just check it out for yourselve if it resonates with you.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnApFhvV7uA

 

 

www.pathgate.org

 

good luck,

 

jan.

[mjjbecker]

hi,

 

there is a lama in england who teaches qi gong, tai chi, wing chung, aikido and other martial arts. i dont know if he is any good as a teacher. i heard good things and pretty bad things about him but never met him and most likely never will because i am very happy with what i got. i wont post what i heard because it is not first hand and so find out for yourselve if he is interesting for you.

 

 

 

NO! He is running a CULT!

 

The man is a disgrace. And yes, I've met him. I've seen him in action manipulating young students to worship him like some kind of God-like figure.

 

Some years back I went to one of his classes, given I come from the North East of England originally. It was unreal. Freshmen students grovelling and scraping, and clearly at his behest.

 

Technically, he claims to be this and that. Sorry, no, and I don't care what certificates he has. His hsing i was disjointed. His attempt to impress me with his ba gua fell flat when the beginner student didn't know the 'script' and his attempts to control the students movements didn't work. Yes, he has some ability, but his claims of mastery over so many different systems is completely implausible.

 

Later in the evening, while taking part in his liu ho ba fa class, he applied a technique on me that would have torn the ligaments and tendons in my arm, had I not known NOT to tense up in response. His deliberate excessive force was a piss poor attempt to assert his dominance. Not likely having learned from people prior who really know how to move.

 

Check this out:

 

http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?4,11964,22414

 

I also recall him being expelled from the TCUGB

 

Jan, I understand you meant well posting this info, but the man is a FRAUD and dangerous to boot.

[林愛偉]

NO! He is running a CULT!

 

The man is a disgrace. And yes, I've met him. I've seen him in action manipulating young students to worship him like some kind of God-like figure.

 

Some years back I went to one of his classes, given I come from the North East of England originally. It was unreal. Freshmen students grovelling and scraping, and clearly at his behest.

 

Technically, he claims to be this and that. Sorry, no, and I don't care what certificates he has. His hsing i was disjointed. His attempt to impress me with his ba gua fell flat when the beginner student didn't know the 'script' and his attempts to control the students movements didn't work. Yes, he has some ability, but his claims of mastery over so many different systems is completely implausible.

 

Later in the evening, while taking part in his liu ho ba fa class, he applied a technique on me that would have torn the ligaments and tendons in my arm, had I not known NOT to tense up in response. His deliberate excessive force was a piss poor attempt to assert his dominance. Not likely having learned from people prior who really know how to move.

 

Check this out:

 

http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?4,11964,22414

 

I also recall him being expelled from the TCUGB

 

Jan, I understand you meant well posting this info, but the man is a FRAUD and dangerous to boot.

 

 

I heard of this as well. A big cult, no real cultivation.. dangerous indeed.

 

Its best to stick to good old fashioned cultivation with no commercialism of skills. Taiji Quan has all one needs... health benefits, cultivation of mind and energy, and fighting. Wing Chun has all of these, yet it is unfortunate that because of the position of shoulders in Chisau, many WIng Chun guys get shoulder problems from not learning how to relax fast enough. This is why teaching proper placement and alignment is so important, as well as sensitivity training.

 

Its all in there for both, but like all teachers, some pick and choose what they like and dislike.. I say, take it all, the difficult, cultivate, the easy maintain.

 

Peace and Blessings and stay away from Pathgste

Lin

[jan1107]

 

Its best to stick to good old fashioned cultivation with no commercialism of skills. Taiji Quan has all one needs... health benefits, cultivation of mind and energy, and fighting.

 

very well said. that is what i had in mind today, too. stick to qi gong, tai chi ... or find a teacher like lin that has experience in both paths.

 

good luck,

 

jan.

 

good to read about your experiences about the pathgate. that is maybe why i stood away from it intuitively quite a while ago. good luck, man!

Edited August 10, 2008 by jan1107

[mjjbecker]

Very good. Not every Wing Chun and Taiji practitioner is good at what they do. There re many quick handed techniques in both Taiji and Wing Chun. In practice and most applications out there...Taiji Quan isn't direct. Its originally, not among the majority nowadays. That's why I said what I said.

 

One man's success isn't the face of the whole system. There are many factors involved, and just for the sake of it, both Taiji Quan and Wing Chun hold similar principles. If the Wing Chun man is too fixed in posture (Fighting by the book recipes) then anything a skilled fighter would do, will overwhelm him.

 

Just to clear up the 2 to 3 moves statement... utilizing a technique has many applications. I count a move as application. A hit to the face following a hit to the collar bone is 2 techniques, two moves.

 

Good :

 

Peace,

Lin

 

[林愛偉]

 

Its originally, not among the majority nowadays

 

When I wrote this, I should have wrote it a bit clearly. . haha My English has become a terrible thing since I speak Chinese now.

 

I meant to say: " Taiji Quan, originally, was direct, but nowadays, because of the idea that people can live off of the martial arts, they commercialized certain applications, and made them GIGANTIC. Hence, the bigness of Taiji Quan in today's world.

 

 

Don't get me wrong. Wing Chun has its ridiculous commercial applications and craziness of practitioners thinking they are kings of the world all because Wing Chun was a fairly newly introduced system here in the west, and the hooking of the Chinese face to cheesy applications sells.

 

Originally, Wing Chun, or any martial art for that matter, was only passed to a few disciples in order to keep to the pure foundation. After Leung Jan of Wing Chun, many began accepting more and more students, when they should have been keeping a close watch on the principles and foundation of the system, pushing virtue as the most important foundation to learning Wing Chun. Because Wing Chun is vicious in application, it should be reserved for well mannered, virtuous and moral individuals. Not hot headed, muscle formed wild horses and monkey minded fellows, men and women alike.

 

THat's why Taiji Quan has a great reputation, because it stresses stillness and good character development. It is one of the reasons why began pressing the old standards of Wu De when teaching my students. IF they can't accord with it, they can go.

 

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

[Prince...]

This is one of the best threads(in my opinion!) that I've read on TB. I guess because, like Pranaman, I'm doing Taiji and Yiquan and considering Wingchun....except that I started out doing Wingchun,back in California, and if it were my choice, would stick with Wingchun exclusively.

 

Unfortunately, Nashville does not seem to be a hotbed for kungfu. I found out there is a Tae Kwon Do Grandmaster running a school here, so it's a decent place, I guess, for Karate and Tae Kwon Do...not so much for kungfu, especially internal styles.

[林愛偉]

This is one of the best threads(in my opinion!) that I've read on TB. I guess because, like Pranaman, I'm doing Taiji and Yiquan and considering Wingchun....except that I started out doing Wingchun,back in California, and if it were my choice, would stick with Wingchun exclusively.

 

Unfortunately, Nashville does not seem to be a hotbed for kungfu. I found out there is a Tae Kwon Do Grandmaster running a school here, so it's a decent place, I guess, for Karate and Tae Kwon Do...not so much for kungfu, especially internal styles.

 

 

Stick with the Taiji Quan and Yiquan till you can find someone with good Wing Chun. Just keep in mind to make your applications smaller and practical. You would have no problems issuing any explosive force in that manner.

 

 

Peace,

Lin

[Vajrasattva]

Real Wing Chun is in fact Internal. It comes from true esoteric pracitces found in TUL KHOR.

 

Except it has been "formalized" & systematized.

 

Its roots are very much internal its based on the hands following natural currents of chi around you. much like yichuan.

 

In the Trul Khor exercise that it comes from, one is "Moved" naturally and the hands move out forward through energy & stillness alone and not force.

 

When I learned this Trulkhor 1st thing that came to my mind was wow this is wing chun!.....

 

My Lama confirmed that all the Buddhist Martial arts come from Bonpo Trulkhor Yoga. Its is evident once you see it.

 

 

Now Wing Chun at higher levels hasvery good foot work which comes from something else much older that is rarely "displayed" but if you know that key you have "access" to things that will easily counter anything.

 

True White Crane has it, its also found in Pencak Silat. In tibet it has to do withthe "KALA CHAKRA" Pattern. Which comes from Tantric yoga. In Silat its known as the "pantjar" or Panchar and comes from the Sufi (Wali Songo). It is an advanced way of understanding lines of force, energy, positioning, footwork, target selection, leverage, etc.

 

You can see traces of it in Bagua with the triagram work.

 

One teacher of one of my Guru's suggested it was from the Ancient Egyptians & the science of the pyramids.

 

Most only get a 1st dimension in their art (Whatever that may be) and that is what' s "mastered."

 

But when you see other elements you begin to look like all the "high Level" arts.

 

which boils down 2 three root things..

 

1) fortifying center

2)moving center

3) dissolving center

 

everything comes from these 3 things in terms of combat.

 

And when you apply this to the PANCHAR you have a seriously devastating science in your system that almost makes most unbeatable.

 

You have to go beyond what you have to see what you have.

 

i did wing chun for years as well as JKD, filipino MA, chinese internal MA, Ninpo,

 

when i found Pencak Silat it was all there and more.

 

My IMA friends say wow that is wing chun or Bagua/tai ji, its something MUCH older.

 

If you can understand the various "wheels" or motions you can understand that wing chun is based on a verticle & horizontal wheel.

 

you want an art that encompasses all the wheels.

 

Supposedly the "BAGUA, XINGYi, TAIJI" where one art.

I believe so. This is what some closed door silats look like.

 

 

peace

 

Santiago

Edited August 10, 2008 by Vajrasattva

[Prince...]

Well, if things work out, I may be moving to Florida this time next year. I'm studying for the LSAT, right now. I am sure I will have very little time for kungfu for the 3 years I'm in law school-- but the plan is to be able to live in an area with a good MA community...or to at least be able to travel overseas to learn from some good teachers.

 

For now, I just stand (Yiquan) in the mornings for about 45 minutes, and sit for 30 minutes at night before bed. I have been slacking on doing my Sil Lim Tau and Taiji the last few weeks, though.

 

I don't really understand the applications in Taiji, right now. I have only been doing it for 2 months. Usually I practice Grasp Sparrows Tail, as I only know the form up to Single Whip in the first section in the Yang style long form.

[Vajrasattva]

Well, if things work out, I may be moving to Florida this time next year. I'm studying for the LSAT, right now. I am sure I will have very little time for kungfu for the 3 years I'm in law school-- but the plan is to be able to live in an area with a good MA community...or to at least be able to travel overseas to learn from some good teachers.

 

For now, I just stand (Yiquan) in the mornings for about 45 minutes, and sit for 30 minutes at night before bed. I have been slacking on doing my Sil Lim Tau and Taiji the last few weeks, though.

 

I don't really understand the applications in Taiji, right now. I have only been doing it for 2 months. Usually I practice Grasp Sparrows Tail, as I only know the form up to Single Whip in the first section in the Yang style long form.

 

 

cool come by when you get a chance.

 

peace & god bless

 

Best wishes to your studies & Success!

 

Santiago

[Prince...]

Santiago, you're in Miami if I'm not mistaken?

[Pranaman]

If I ever take on Wing Chun it won't be for a very long time. I'd much rather focus on what I'm doing right now, in yiquan mostly. Standing is what I practice. I don't need anymore right now, but there is no harm in learning all that I can. I just had a friend talking to me about wing chun. thank you all for the information

[Vajrasattva]

Santiago, you're in Miami if I'm not mistaken?

 

 

yes sir Miami