Kunlun, seitai, seiki, osho, Keeney, zi fa gong?

[寒月 Hanyue]

Hi

 

I know kunlun has its fan's here so i thought this might be a good place to ask a question. I have read through some of the previous threads about it, but was left wondering what is the difference of it is to the other spontaneous movement practices out there?

 

Some advocate a specific posture/breathing to help initiate falling into a 'rhythm' some don't. They all seem to want to start from a place of movement to remove blockages which tends to over time mean a more subtle vibrational movement ending in a more 'stillness' practice.

 

 

Curiously,

 

SM

[Aetherous]

Spontaneous movement practices are all cool. Kunlun level one is a bit different than most, but the theory is the same: start out in a certain way and then let flow.

 

Kunlun isn't just that, though...there are quite a few very different practices which constitute the system. And there is also the transmission. So all of that makes it very very different from other spontaneous practices, I think.

[Wun Yuen Gong]

Good question! Like scotty said they are all about spontaneous movement but do they all lead to the same place??? HMMM Not many lead to Golden Dragon if its real and if it is real then this is something really different and exciting but also could be dangerous (maybe).

 

Scotty,

 

Has Max talked about any negative reactions to Kunlun and especially Golden Dragon for instance you disappear or vanish what can happen apart not coming back and what happens to you if you come back? These things do intrest me but im still skeptical on it as i dont understand it or hard to believe it can happen. I sure hope its real and can be attained!!

 

WYG

[Aetherous]

From what I understand, there are always problems no matter how advanced you are.

 

Why do you hope something is real and attainable if you don't know what it is?

[SiliconValley]

Scotty,

 

Didn't really get you...

 

Kunlun level one is a bit different than most, but the theory is the same

 

So what is the difference?

 

- Results promised/attained?

- The practical nitty gritties like the posture, mudra, visualization etc?

- The process that takes place within when the practice is undertaken?

 

Kunlun isn't just that, though...there are quite a few very different practices which constitute the system

 

Also, as we are talking of spontaneous rhythm practices, I assume the questioner is referring to the particular practice called Kunlun and not an umbrella of the same name as some of the other practices under this umbrella are not spontaneous ones per say.

 

And there is also the transmission. So all of that makes it very very different from other spontaneous practices, I think.

 

If Transmission is what makes Kunlun very very different, then some other related systems have transmissions/attunements as well! I hope you are basing your observations on a clear, unbiased and critical evaluation of these different systems. They are "different" because they have some differences, be it the name, the lineage or the actual practice. But very very......hmmmmm

Edited August 13, 2008 by SiliconValley

[Aetherous]

Kunlun level one is a bit different than most, but the theory is the same

 

 

So what is the difference?

 

- Results promised/attained?

- The practical nitty gritties like posture, mudra etc?

- The process that takes place within when the practice is undertaken?

 

Well I used to be into WKK's chi kung stuff. He has spontaneous movement practice in his system. I just did it from the books...I think there's a bit of a transmission there as well, when you go to his seminar. I don't have experience with that particular energy.

 

But in his system, you start out standing, or you press certain points and do slight kicks and bends before letting go. In the kunlun system, you sit in the posture and let go.

 

So it's a bit different.

 

If Transmission is what makes Kunlun [bold]very very[/bold] different, then some other related systems have transmissions/attunements as well! I hope you are basing your observations on a clear, unbiased and critical evaluation of these different systems. They are "different" because they have some differences, be it the name, the lineage or the actual practice. But very very......hmmmmm

 

The practices in the kunlun system also make it very very different. At least from anything I've had experience with!

 

The transmission may or may not be the same energy as certain other systems, which I don't know of. I've never done a transmission before kunlun, so I can't say about any of that.

[Wun Yuen Gong]

Scotty

 

Lets say i rather see it with my own eyes and also like to experience things myself either by watching other or involving myself. I like to be proven wrong about my skepticism thats all!

[SiliconValley]

I just did it from the books...I think there's a bit of a transmission there as well, when you go to his seminar. I don't have experience with that particular energy.

 

The practices in the kunlun system also make it very very different. At least from anything I've had experience with!

 

The transmission may or may not be the same energy as certain other systems, which I don't know of. I've never done a transmission before kunlun, so I can't say about any of that.

 

 

Cool, you stated your view ... fair..

 

To be conclusive however, we would need someone who really has practiced various of these systems, understands them well and can list similarities or differences, unbiased...

Edited August 14, 2008 by SiliconValley

[Aetherous]

Fair enough, how about you do that?

[SiliconValley]

Fair enough, how about you do that?

 

 

Naaw...got better and more useful things to do!

 

Moreover, my practice requires me to see the oneness behind the various systems/practices rather than spot, claim or stress on the superficial differences

 

One day, if I get to designing/discovering a practice that I can punch with my own "trademark", then I will probably drop the theory of unity and get to "it is totally different from others"! Till there is some such agenda, I will stick to the oneness thingie

Edited August 14, 2008 by SiliconValley

[jan1107]

hi,

 

i was thinking if i should write or not since i really dont want to spend too much time discussing in the internet anymore.

 

but here i go ...

 

i will just share my experience with my of course limited understanding.

 

altough i am not a sanyassin or osho - follower i added some of his meditations to my normal pratices some years ago. additionally i praticed some of his meditations on a silent retreat.

 

those i praticed:

 

1. dynamic meditation ( quite a lot on a daily base for a few months )

2. kundalini meditation ( just a few times )

3. gourisanka ( just a few times )

 

differences to kunlun

 

1. dynamic meditation has 5 formal phases in which there are 2 phases that offer room to express spontanious movements, emotions, feelings.

in kunlun there are no phases except starting and closing down. all phases for me come naturally and can include simliarities to different meditations i knew from the past.

 

2. kundalini: same like 1. kundalini has certain phases that you follow and within those phases are times where you can express yourselve. the other phases are meant to built up the energy or to become more aware of it.

 

3. gourishanka. before entering a state similar to kunlun you do certain breathing and a visiual meditation watching a blue, blinking light. after that you have kind of visions and your body might want to move. at least in my case.

 

i think the difference in kunlun is that that there are less formal stages. you go with the flow and in your own rhytm (in osho meditations the rhytm is made by a music that changes or a bell that rings to say: move to next stage no matter what you are experiencing right now). some people prefer to have formal phases and for them it seems to be very good.

 

there are similarities in kunlun to all of the above meditations for me. in kunlun it happened to me naturally. like sometimes this energy would let me do yoga postures, sometimes qi gong, sometimes special breathing exercices that i didnt know but enjoyed a lot, sometimes perceptions of other dimensions or whatever you want to call it ...

 

there is no better or worse. just depends on what you want. i personally like that now i do not have to use many techniques anymore but still have powerful results.

 

with seitai i have not much experience. a friend of mine is a teacher of this art and it sounds very good and interesting to me. but i know to few to give a comparison. it seemed to me it has lots of good exercices.

 

for me personally being a more yang person the last years by doing so much training, practicing a lot it is very good now to just follow the flow and see how fast this leads to changes in my energetic perception. there is a constant vibration now even when i dont pratice. along with other things that amaze me.

 

i knew spontanious movements. they happened naturally but not as strong as now.

 

all of this doesnt mean other systems dont work! of course they do. most important things to see is with what pratices you resonate best to acces the universal filed of energy.

 

since doing kunlun my other things work much, much better for me. it helped me to overcome a time in which i felt stuck in my other practices.

 

transmissions are given in many systems. it mainly depends on how well you resonate with the person giving you the transmission. in my case the transmissions of max happen to really open up a lot of doors inside of me that i couldnt acces as easy in the past as i can now.

 

for me personally kunlun really helped to bring major changes in my energetic perception.

 

for me also very important is practicing the red phoenix meditation along. it seems like this gives the practice a lot more energetic potential and helps me to pratice wherever i am.

 

i had to add: JUST REMEMBERED THAT THERE IS A GOOD BOOK OF A MALAYSIAN MASTER MANY KNOW. HIS NAME IS WONG KIEW AND HE DESCRIBES EXERCICES TO ACCES SPONTANIOUS MOVEMENTS, TOO. very interesting guy.

 

hope i could help. and i hope i can leave this thread, too. otherwise it will be a ....

 

love jan.

Edited August 14, 2008 by jan1107

[Aetherous]

Silicon,

 

Naaw...got better and more useful things to do!

 

Me too!

Moreover, my practice requires me to see the oneness behind the various systems/practices rather than spot, claim or stress on the superficial differences

 

What is your practice?

 

One day, if I get to designing/discovering a practice that I can punch with my own "trademark", then I will probably drop the theory of unity and get to "it is totally different from others"! Till there is some such agenda, I will stick to the oneness thingie

 

Well the kunlun system is a root practice. The differences are only in the details.

 

It's like if you use Crest to brush your teeth, or if you use Colgate.

[Smile]

I learned a similar method long time ago, although the difference in teaching it is quiet profound.

 

First, a student has to establish a strong foundation in meditation and basic chikung practices to build the energy to a certain level, so the energy of the higher practices won't "fry" the nervous system and energy pathways.

 

After a year of basics, you learn this particular chikung practice where you sit with your hills raised and arms/hands in certain position similar to "kunlun". The only thing different is half of the time your hands on a higher level (a certain hand over the other), then you move hands to the lower level (hands/arms switched).

 

There is also a ration breathing you do before each half, and you have to do 1 hour meditation right after. There is a transmission but it's for the system, not for this particular practice. A teacher monitors the progress constantly and there are times when it's too much for a student and the practices should be stopped. Normally it happens if a student cuts on his/her meditation time.

 

But... eventually this practice and other chikung practices are stopped after they served the purpose of opening what they are supposed to open and clearing what they are supposed to clear. You move on.

 

I hope this helped.

[SiliconValley]

Silicon,

 

 

 

Me too!

 

 

What is your practice?

 

Srividya Tantra - which involves Kriya, Bhakti, Advaita and Tantra of course...

 

 

Well the kunlun system is a root practice. The differences are only in the details.

 

Ok, that is exactly what I was saying... and these "details" don't make something very very different, do they? Never mind, I don't want to emulate [edit]

 

By the way, what do you mean by root practice? Does that mean origin of other practices [just taking a guess as root can suggest origin] or origin of other "Kunlun" set of practices? Root of what? In Sanskrit, Dhatu is the root from which words originate, so my analysis of the word "root" is from that angle. Also, is it the root practice or one of the root practices? I never got to comprehend what this term really means, especially in the context of Kunlun. Would appreciate some information in this regard.

Edited August 14, 2008 by SiliconValley

[Aetherous]

I guess it's a good question since I hardly feel qualified to explain what it means....I wasn't the one who originally said it.

 

The way I personally interpret it is that a root practice is something which puts you in harmony with the Tao...whatever that means.

 

All of the stuff happening to you as a result of spiritual practices, all of the differences in techniques and different practices, different energies, etc...all of that is an attempt to achieve one thing. The releasing of blockages, and an opening up to the divine/true self/God/Tao/uhhh whatever else. So I think whatever practice you have that does that, it can be called a root practice. Yours is probably included in that.

 

So the spontaneous movement...to me that's an external thing. It's just a side effect of the actual process which is going on.

 

Eh, I should stop talking...I hardly know enough.

[qijack]

I have heard that The kunlun pai have several postures that can induce the spontaneous state. Apparently it is a big part of there training but only to be done at the right time with correct guidence.Each posture I'm guessing focuses energy in a particular channel. With the kunlun 1 posture it focuses energy in the ren and du mai as well as the chong mai, correct me if I'm wrong:).that's just what i feel

 

In most spontaneous forms i have encountered like 'wu xin zi fa gong' which i learnt from my teacher they focus on a more whole body energy flow with the main function being creating health and energy regulation, but there is not much difference with the release of emotions and spontaneous movements and other phenomena, except that the kunlun posture activates the process a whole lot faster. At a higher level it is more about letting it happen naturally rather than trying to induce it with special techniques. The universe will tell you when to go spontaneous, during your practice or anytime

 

As for the energy that kunlun cultivates. its all the same, comes from the same source. The claim that kunlun energy is not chi is silly. I better not say much more than that

 

But in the end kunlun is still pretty good:)

 

PS: Ive had some pretty good sucsess with the kunlun 1 posture with out having the tranmission, it pretty much activates in me instantly giving me blissfull feelings and great releases.How would getting the transmission from max change my experiance with kunlun?, i cant imagine it getting better.

Edited August 14, 2008 by truth

[寒月 Hanyue]

Hi

 

First of all thanks to all that have replied, much appreciated

 

To clarify one point, transmissions are given in all of the traditions i mentioned AFAIK, though there may be differences that could be debated, such as the 'kind' of energy transmitted etc (stuff that usually seems to reflect local cultural colour more than anything else).

 

The seitai i mention is Noguchi Seitai (there are different types, some are just like osteopathy with no 'energy' type stuff). Noguchi worked with energy projection, hands on healing and so forth. He was in interesting man from all accounts. I know of one student who links the transmissions back to shaktipat. The moving practice 'Katsugen undou' (the exercise that gives life??) is started with three breathing exercises and a kind of 'stretch' to initiate the movements until you can just do it. You let the movements play out until they are done.

 

Seikijutsu, your body is prepared and then you sit on a stool and seiki transmitted down your spine into your sacrum. This as you learn to surrender to it initiates the rocking and spontaneous movement, rocking, swaying, circles, standing up and moving around, noises talking etc, you also let this play out until it's done.

 

Regarding Osho, I have only worked with his Kundalini meditation which has already been described in part. It begins with shaking, which ideally should 'shake you' rather than the other way around, you then follow the other three parts into stillness. I understand Osho to have given transmissions, whether this was called shakti or not i don't know? I agree on the oddness of having timed 'sections' rather than just an entry into it and then going from there.

 

Keeney shoots arrows or transmits 'energy' and shakes you, he advocates a process based on seiki though says you can do it without the initial transmission (though it might take longer), he advises no postures other than whatever you need to fall into the spontaneous movement feel the bliss/big love of the big god and have a good time. The emphasis is on 'being shaken', he avoids definitions of 'energy' and prefers to speak of the affects of it on you, though he calls everything from subtle humming and vibration to wild erratic movements and dancing as 'shaking medicine'.

 

I was taught a spontaneous practice by a tai chi teacher though not really of the depth of the above, but its descriptions were similar to those given by Master Wong kiew kit, and Ken Cohen.

 

Spontaneous sounds and noises and how erratic the movements are 'allowed' to get seems to be connected to the general cultural demeanor, those cultures tied with historical traditions like confucianism seem a little more conservative in their expression of it. Maybe it all heralds back to the erratic shaking and movement of ecstatically aroused 'healers' and over the years traditions occurred based on concepts of how to bring that about?

 

So, overall, we know that the practices release physical tension, emotional and energetic blockages, and is preferably done with receiving transmissions that aid the process. But is there any difference? and if so is it just an 'academic' one of degree, that doesn't really affect the average person starting out? Other than what someone enjoys and is going to actually practice to get somewhere?

 

I suppose where the practice is held within the system is one difference, which highlights the importance it is given. As far as i know this kind of spontaneous movement practice is what makes the later sensitivity exercises and people moving you around easier. My current neigong teacher says that spontaneous movement due to energy flow occurs when you have blockages that are preventing you from aligning properly. When aligned properly and with the mai open the energy (heaven or earth) will then move up and down powerfully though not move you as it has a clear path through, you might still hum and vibrate though, thoughts on this??

 

Kunlun you say uses various postures at different stages, so they are used to induce the movement of energy and the spontaneous movement? But if the different postures used are to clear different blockages/stimulate the energy in different ways (opening different mai etc), how is this effected once you start moving which from descriptions seems to be the point of the practice? Is the initial posture a 'primer' for what will then happen once you have begun moving?

 

I saw on the video lecture on his site Max says the energy is not qi or kundalini? Does anyone know what he explains it is instead? I know that there are many, many different names that float around for different 'types' of energy even within one tradition let alone cross-culturally.

 

Curiously ?

 

I suppose at the end of the day you can't answer the questions without trying it out to see ha ha, experience is the mother of all things. So one last question for any that can answer it, how different is/are the transmissions given to qi transmission or shaktipat?? I live in the uk and wouldn't be able to go State side to meet Max.

 

Peace and love, SM