is reserving jing even necessary?

[mYTHmAKER]

Show me a happy couple. Period.

 

I should have introduced you to my wife last week.

She was part of the class.

[Smile]

 

I should have introduced you to my wife last week.

She was part of the class.

Maybe next time.

[styrofoamdog]

I've been celibate for awhile now, and I don't really have difficulty with it. The key isn't physical control at all, it's entirely an issue of the mind. People who read about Daoism tend to think that if they go through the motions of meditation and celibacy, that's good enough. That isn't true at all, and the Buddhist understanding of overcoming your desires is closer to the actual Daoist approach.

 

In the classic "Anthology on the Cultivation of Realization", the author writes: "Some ask, 'As we learn to become sages, what can we do about the difficulty of getting rid of the force of habit?' The answer is that it only seems difficult because you aren't willing to get rid of it."

 

The author is stating that we have to look to the origins of our "habits", which are simply products of our own ignorance and resistance to change. If someone wants to be celibate but gives into desires, then it is solely a failure of the mind. If you can extinguish sexual thoughts, the urges to engage in sexual actions do not present themselves.

[fiveelementtao]

It depends on what you want to achieve.

(if you are trying to live a life full of egoless happiness, health, wealth, truth, respect and bliss.) All of those things can be accomplished without being a taoist. So, what's the real issue? If you want real power in internal martial arts or in internal alchemy, at some point males will need to practice celibacy for a time. But, there are many ways to conserve jing and still enjoy sex and even have orgasms.

(John Chang had a family and children.

Lu Zijian had children.

Li Ching-Yun had tons of children over the span of his minimally 170 year old life.)

Yes, but I am quite sure that each of them practiced celibacy for some period (s) during their lifetime.

 

This sounds like a moral dilemma for you. If you're just looking to enjoy life and be at peace, why even bother with torturing yourself. If you're trying to be the next John Chang, you will have to be celibate for some period in time. If you just want to live a taoist philosophy, then do what is natural for YOU.

 

it seems like a person can have sex, and still have a very resourceful energy body. Is jing preservation only necessary for the alchemical practices of transforming jing to qi to shen? It just seems to me it'd only be necessary if you are trying to reach total nirvana, and unnecessary if you are trying to live a life full of egoless happiness, health, wealth, truth, respect and bliss.

 

John Chang had a family and children.

Lu Zijian had children.

Li Ching-Yun had tons of children over the span of his minimally 170 year old life.

 

what do you all think?

[三江源]

Classy!

 

yeh, but I dont think of myself as, like, "royalty' or anything. I keep modest with it, ya know.

[dragonfire]

Exorcist --

 

What happens if in the course of practicing, the practitioner still holds anger in himself. Do you think this will

be disaster to himself. I have some anger in me and I'm still practicing. I'm not waiting for it to disappear as

I don't know when it will. For me its been almost 3 years now and it seems things have barely gotten better. Some anger lies deep within childhood trauma, others, elsewhere, but they are not easy to

heal. Sometimes I have angry thoughts while practicing against other people. I'm wonder if this is considered

evil or just part of the venting and healing process?

 

 

Post-Heaven status of jing-qi-shen is split , but linked. The lost of any one will affect the others .

 

The pre-Heaven status of them is concentrated and united. in a Trinity ,the lost of it is always fatal . Anyone who practice Taoist cultivation with any slight evil idea will likely bring disaster to himself .

[adam mizner]

oh dear, one problem. cannot have sex without desire. so depends on the goal, if it is enlightenment then disire must be dealt with. in the Dhamma the 3rd level of enlightenment (still not complete) makes one naturally celibate. but hey sex sells.

metta

adam

 

 

Maybe I'm a misanthrope, but it seems obvious to me that it is immensely difficult

to have any sort of spiritual practice while you are in any sort of

relationship---and damn near impossible if you have children.

Jack Kornfiled has a wife and children. He is the author of several spiritual

classics, a celebrated meditation teacher and claims that practicing in

relationships with people is the most important practice. He found that the internal

peace and bliss he found after several years in asian monastaries did not make him

less neurotic and actualy made him a lot worse at interacting with people and doing

anything other than meditationg and doing nice things for other people within the

highly regulated system of a monastary.

 

Kornfield did a survey, published in Yogajournal, where he interviewed 54 highly

regarded spiritual masters (eastern and western) and top students of spiritual

masters about their sex lives. Most of these preached the benefits of celibacy

outwardly, however only about a dozen of them actualy practiced celibacy tehmselves.

34 (I think it was) of them slept with their students. Some were monogamous, some

were promiscous, some were polyamorous, some were bisexual, they were perfectly

average with regards to theirs sexual habits with regards to fetishes and kinky sex

etc. None of them seemed particualry enlightened in their sex lives. Kornfields

conclusion was that al though several of this masters were highly attained and many

enlightened, enlightened action in a particular area, like that of ones sex life, presuposes that one draws that area into ones spiriutal practice and works on it and is not at all guarantied by becoming enlightened per se.

 

In the Zen tradition monks frequently have wives and children and get enlightened al

the same. If you look at the yogic tradition, a very, very large part of it`s most

important developers 2000++ years a go were hoseholders with children. One of the

most important yogis, which I don`t remember the name of, had over a 100 children.

In this century, Krishnamacharya, the founder in many ways of modern yoga, had

children and did not particulary belive in celibacy. Neither does B.K.S. Iyengar

(who claims enlightenment) nor Pathabi Jois the founder of Ashtanga yoga. Lama Surya

das has a wife and children and has, as I understand, at least reached some of the

first stages of enlightenment.

 

At a serious site about Advaita Vedanta they said that most people who get enlightened within that tradition have very active sex lives after enlightenment. I don`t remember what they said about before enlightenment.

 

It seems like Drew Hempel and the Bushmen have a nice spiritual practice that includes a form of sex and which is highly bebeficial in all regards.

 

The number of masters recognized and celibarated in India and Tibet as enlightened

who started sleeping with their students when they came to the west and did no

longer have the support structure of their monastarys to keep them in check, is

absurdly high.

 

In Yoganis AYP system they practice a very simple system of Tantra where both women

and men stay right in front of the point of no return, not actualy having orgasms,

just preorgasmic sex. Those who practice AYP find that in terms of benefits for

their practice the least beneficial is to have conventional orgasmic sex, the second

least is celibacy and the most beneficial is to have preorgasmic sex. Further more

there is some difference with regards to how long in front of the orgasm people need

to stay. Some stay quite far off, some have more or less multiorgasmic valey orgasms

and some vary. Wether men feel depleeted or energized after having multiorgasmic sex

rather than more preorgasmic, apears to be an individual matter and may vary over time.

Furthermore i have read several acounts of people who, after some years of spiritual

practice, do not any longer feel depleted even after ejaculations. This seems to be

rather rare and I haven`t come across anyone that has a technique of how to get

there, but presumably there is, since it somehow happened through the result of

spiritual practice.

[metzu]

it seems like a person can have sex, and still have a very resourceful energy body. Is jing preservation only necessary for the alchemical practices of transforming jing to qi to shen? It just seems to me it'd only be necessary if you are trying to reach total nirvana, and unnecessary if you are trying to live a life full of egoless happiness, health, wealth, truth, respect and bliss.

 

John Chang had a family and children.

Lu Zijian had children.

Li Ching-Yun had tons of children over the span of his minimally 170 year old life.

 

what do you all think?

 

It is possible to have rewaqrding sex without reaching climax.

Simply when the woman begins to get you aroused ,tell her" if you don't slow down I am going to cum and that will be it." Most women will slow down and allow you to compose yourself because they don't want you to cum before them, and be left unsatisfied.

Do this two or three times and the woman will not only reach multiple climaxes you will understand the mastery of sex itself.

[voidisyinyang]

Since I was referred to in this thread I'll respond the same way I did to my coworker who asked me the same question last night. He said it sound likes tantra, as we discussed the book Taoist Yoga which he just received. I said well that book is focused on single person cultivation with the assumption that there is separation between males and females. I said for example in China even in the 1980s it was common for a female in public with a group of males to not expected to talk but only listen. I then told him that once the pineal gland is opened up then the energy just flows automatically externally and the goal is to harmonize the energy. For example the Bushmen called it "hoarding the N/um" (jing) when males tried to increase their spirit travel power and the females would throw water on the males when this happened. In contrast tantra is easier when done with females because the females have stronger jing or electrochemical energy (they live 7 years longer on average compared to males) and therefore females suck up the electromagnetic male energy, thereby enabling the male to easily harmonize through ecstasy and also exorcise the internal blockages, while healing the female at the same time. Have fun people.

[Pranaman]

where or what to read about tantra?

[voidisyinyang]

Well Stanford Professor David Gordon White's recent "Kiss of the Yogini" is the best academic overview of tantra but further nuances are provided by Professor Hugh B. Urban. Essentially "tantra" like "hinduism" has been westernized (made into a monocultural commodity) but it's history is as a sacred rule of early city-state cultures from Asia to Africa. The secret of tantra supposedly is for the male to drink the female's fluids in order to restore what he has lost. There's also an excellent recent Tibetan tantra book by a female professor from Naropa -- something like Jewels of the Dakini. In reality tantra is not a physical process but relies on energy exchanges at a distance with the help of spiritual goddesses. But, as the Bushmen state, "collecting the N/um of young maidens" is also a real part of tantra -- taking in the jing and then transforming it into chi which is then shot back into the females. That's why in Nepal and other Asian tantric states the goddess was embodied as a pre-pubescent female but when menstruation arrived the goddess had to return to society. Similarly when the Bushmen female goes through the Eland bull ritual (for first menstruation) all the young males walk past her and she touches their balls. This is part of the males' tantric training which starts with a month of male isolation for long fasting and 24 hour dancing and ends with the male spending 3 years serving the females' parents, providing food, before the marriage is consummated.

[gendao]

One last thing we must remember is the trikaya as this is an important key. We nurture our physical body, refine our dharma body and grow our bliss body thereby moving ever towards greater perfection.

Know anything about the supposed peculiar body features of a Buddha?

All Buddhas have the 32 major marks, and the 80 minor marks of a superior being. These marks are not necessarily physical, but are talked about as bodily features. They include the 'ushinisha' or a bump on the top of the head; hair tightly curled; a white tuft of hair between the eyes, long arms that reach to their knees, long fingers and toes that are webbed; his penis is completely covered by his foreskin; images of an eight-spoked wheel on the soles of their feet etc.

Also, I seem to recall reading somewhere about how the penis withdraws into the body upon enlightenment or Buddhahood or something??