is reserving jing even necessary?

[Pranaman]

it seems like a person can have sex, and still have a very resourceful energy body. Is jing preservation only necessary for the alchemical practices of transforming jing to qi to shen? It just seems to me it'd only be necessary if you are trying to reach total nirvana, and unnecessary if you are trying to live a life full of egoless happiness, health, wealth, truth, respect and bliss.

 

John Chang had a family and children.

Lu Zijian had children.

Li Ching-Yun had tons of children over the span of his minimally 170 year old life.

 

what do you all think?

[宁]

So, what is jing, anyway?

[exorcist_1699]

It is undoubtedly needed ; the older you get, the deeper you understand its importance .

 

The lost of jing , unfortunately, is not only through sex , there are many other channels.

Edited August 14, 2008 by exorcist_1699

[The Cloudwalking Owl]

it seems like a person can have sex, and still have a very resourceful energy body. Is jing preservation only necessary for the alchemical practices of transforming jing to qi to shen? It just seems to me it'd only be necessary if you are trying to reach total nirvana, and unnecessary if you are trying to live a life full of egoless happiness, health, wealth, truth, respect and bliss.

 

John Chang had a family and children.

Lu Zijian had children.

Li Ching-Yun had tons of children over the span of his minimally 170 year old life.

 

what do you all think?

 

I have read translations of old Daoist texts that suggest that the real energy loss comes not from sex, per se, but rather from the energy one puts into a relationship. The "left handed path", therefore, is not sex, but instead learning how to have a healthy relationship with another person. Don't forget that before birth control the only sure way to avoid having children was to not have sex. Maybe I'm a misanthrope, but it seems obvious to me that it is immensely difficult to have any sort of spiritual practice while you are in any sort of relationship---and damn near impossible if you have children.

 

Having said that, I did practice retention for a while and to do it requires a lot of self-discipline, internal control and concentration. These are all essential things for any sort of spiritual practice, so it would be very good grounding as long as people don't obsess.

 

Finally, I have come to the conclusion that "jing" doesn't only refer to sperm but rather "life energy". So I would suggest that we also waste our jing through a lot of other activities besides sex. For example, I think that video games also waste our jing.

[Patrick Brown]

Edited August 14, 2008 by Patrick Brown

[Aetherous]

Great posts Cloudwalking Owl, as well as exorcist!

 

I'll give my point of view:

 

Think about this: when a person is celibate, they still release semen in wet dreams. Everyone is different and it can happen at different times...one person might have a wet dream every few nights, another every couple of weeks. Maybe some people don't even have wet dreams at all, or at least it isn't noticeable. That is just the body having too much semen production so the cup kind of overflows.

 

It's not good to have stagnation in anything. That's why it's good for the body to drink water and pee, to move and sweat, to eat and shit, to shower and clean the skin, to take in energy and release it, etc. Why stagnate in ejaculation? It's good to let it out at the amount your body needs. It becomes bad for you when you're letting it out more than your body needs.

 

As a general rule of thumb, waiting a week seems to work well for someone younger like me.

 

With meditation, qigong, tantra, etc...the jing, which helps create the semen, is turned into chi which nourishes shen. Without spiritual practices, the jing is kept for just making more semen.

 

So really the key isn't to stop ejaculating at all, it's to hold back a bit and do spiritual practices. And celibacy is still great, but it's not that big of a deal. The loss in a wet dream is especially not that big of a deal, so long as you're doing worthwhile practices.

 

Just my opinion...

[Trunk]

It's not good to have stagnation in anything. That's why it's good for the body to drink water and pee, to move and sweat, to eat and shit, to shower and clean the skin, to take in energy and release it, etc. Why stagnate in ejaculation? It's good to let it out at the amount your body needs. It becomes bad for you when you're letting it out more than your body needs.

 

...

 

So really the key isn't to stop ejaculating at all, it's to hold back a bit and do spiritual practices.

Now there's a moderate sensible healthy pt of view.

[wudangspirit]

The issue of Jing and losing it has been a topic for many years of those who cultivate. In my opinion and training, it is necessary to conserve jing. Now that can be done in many ways. One is through limiting the frequency of sexual acitivity. I say limiting not abstaining totally. The other is giving up the need for attachments such as ego, emotions etc.

 

Taoism has strict rules to follow if you want to follow the immortality path. Those rules shouldn't be taken lightly. However, everything in moderation to live a normal, long life. It's about following your nature and your intent. If your intent is to follow a strict Taoist path and transmute jing to qi and qi to shen and become immortal and raise the spirit then you have to follow the rules. It's pretty simple.

 

However, don't look for shortcuts and exceptions. There are none.

 

Wudangspirit

[Sahaj Nath]

The issue of Jing and losing it has been a topic for many years of those who cultivate. In my opinion and training, it is necessary to conserve jing. Now that can be done in many ways. One is through limiting the frequency of sexual acitivity. I say limiting not abstaining totally. The other is giving up the need for attachments such as ego, emotions etc.

 

Taoism has strict rules to follow if you want to follow the immortality path. Those rules shouldn't be taken lightly. However, everything in moderation to live a normal, long life. It's about following your nature and your intent. If your intent is to follow a strict Taoist path and transmute jing to qi and qi to shen and become immortal and raise the spirit then you have to follow the rules. It's pretty simple.

 

However, don't look for shortcuts and exceptions. There are none.

 

Wudangspirit

 

 

aren't there ALWAYS exceptions to ANY orthodox rules? isn't that how the left-handed path came about? i'm not a taoist and i don't know what you know on the subject, but i have yet to meet a rule that couldn't be broken.

 

we know more about the physical body today than we did however many thousand years ago. and if Yang, Jwing-Ming is correct, jing transmutation has more to do with hormone levels than it does semen retention. and if hormone levels are the reason it's perfectly fine for younger folks to ejaculate and less fine for older folks, then maybe there are healthy ways to stimulate and maintain hormone production while still having a good time in the sack.

 

i don't know. what do you bums thinks?

[The Cloudwalking Owl]

aren't there ALWAYS exceptions to ANY orthodox rules? isn't that how the left-handed path came about? i'm not a taoist and i don't know what you know on the subject, but i have yet to meet a rule that couldn't be broken.

 

we know more about the physical body today than we did however many thousand years ago. and if Yang, Jwing-Ming is correct, jing transmutation has more to do with hormone levels than it does semen retention. and if hormone levels are the reason it's perfectly fine for younger folks to ejaculate and less fine for older folks, then maybe there are healthy ways to stimulate and maintain hormone production while still having a good time in the sack.

 

i don't know. what do you bums thinks?

 

These are good points.

 

I noticed how I could change my consciousness and energy level through manipulating my conscious mind---and not just through the use of sexual arousal. I don't like to jump to theory from experience without a lot of evidence, but it could be explained by the manipulation of hormones within the body.

 

A key point is that once you start working on these processes you have to be your own guide to a very large extent. A teacher can answer some questions and the tradition can offer suggestions. But the internal processes are so subjective and hard to describe that it is impossible for someone to talk you through the whole process. That is why, IMHO, it is so important to avoid the whole "orthodoxy"/"heterodoxy" thing and instead follow a skeptical, rationalist point of view. (Please note, I wrote "skeptical" and "rathional"---not "naive materialist" or "reductionistic".) Following an orthodox teaching like a robot will simply not allow you to learn how to do anything except recite language that you don't understand. If you don't "poke and prode" with your rational mind, you will also be prey to superstition.

[Patrick Brown]

Yes I've often factored hormones into the equation. Both testosterone and estrogen are produced by male and female. Of course the reason we differentiated from the androgynous Adam was because we all became unbalanced because of our desire. We are all yin yang's yet when in balance the apparent opposites vanish and there is just a circle with a sine wave.

[findley]

Don't doubt it too much, man.

 

Of course moderation is important, and you want things flowing to avoid stagnation, like scotty said...

 

... ... well... The way I figured out and convinced myself how important controlled emission is... ...

 

Try jerking off as much as you can for a week. ejaculate as much as possible, and see how you feel after the week. (or even 2-3 days.) Then start reserving it, and hold onto it for a week at a time.

 

I noticed that my potential to experience bliss was significantly lessened after unnecessary ejaculation.

 

so, prove it to yourself, man.

[Patrick Brown]

Don't doubt it too much, man.

 

Of course moderation is important, and you want things flowing to avoid stagnation, like scotty said...

 

... ... well... The way I figured out and convinced myself how important controlled emission is... ...

 

Try jerking off as much as you can for a week. ejaculate as much as possible, and see how you feel after the week. (or even 2-3 days.) Then start reserving it, and hold onto it for a week at a time.

 

I noticed that my potential to experience bliss was significantly lessened after unnecessary ejaculation.

 

so, prove it to yourself, man.

Hmm so you don't have the keys?

 

Yes all things in moderation but nirvana is the eternal movement into greater ecstasy and learning the way brings insight.

 

This is why Tibetan Buddhism states that any ejaculation before enlightenment will send you straight to hell. After enlightenment...

 

As said above jing and chi are co-dependant.

[mantis]

i think it is necessary and the energy loss felt after ejaculation is more than noticeable. as for stagnation, it's energy, if it needs an outlet it can find itself in other ways (besides ejaculating); this can be increased creativity, joy (or anger) physical activity, etc. after your reserves are filled (i believe this takes about 2 weeks) your body simply starts breaking down the semen and reabsorbing it, i don't know or understand where this fear of energy stagnation comes from.

[styrofoamdog]

The issue of Jing and losing it has been a topic for many years of those who cultivate. In my opinion and training, it is necessary to conserve jing. Now that can be done in many ways. One is through limiting the frequency of sexual acitivity. I say limiting not abstaining totally. The other is giving up the need for attachments such as ego, emotions etc.

 

Taoism has strict rules to follow if you want to follow the immortality path. Those rules shouldn't be taken lightly. However, everything in moderation to live a normal, long life. It's about following your nature and your intent. If your intent is to follow a strict Taoist path and transmute jing to qi and qi to shen and become immortal and raise the spirit then you have to follow the rules. It's pretty simple.

I agree with this. It's probably the biggest topic for people who start taking an interest in internal alchemy, because it's an obstacle for them. But if people want to practice this, why do they think they can do that while giving into all of their desires and normal behavior?

[Spectrum]

Be sensible about the matter. Sex is a massive release of energy at a specific point in time. There are other activities that collect and release energy, but none so pronounced / profound in the average persons life such as sex. Maybe climbing a mountain?

 

Before you decide to practice with, practice without and see. My first instructor suggested syncing chi gung practice with your daily chi cycles (bio rhythms) for maximum benefit. Ie morning & evening. When first experimenting with your bodies most primary cycles it's beneficial to start with simple coordination activities and simply note your level of energy / motivation / inspiration.

 

I'll reflect a personal experience here. As I have a natural inclinaton towards writing, I noticed at certain times in my teens I was so "inspired" by seemingly outer circumstances to prose poetry etc that I wondered why it ebbed and flowed.

 

When I discovered chi gung practice there were times in which these seemingly "outter" circumstances were actually inner attributes being coordinating (sometimes by outter circumstance) to the degree in which... well... " the sum of parts results in something greater than the whole. " This would result in a physical task being accomplished, a mood change, an insight, an idea, a realization, sometimes even something that seemed extra ordinary. Most importantly here I would keep a notebook handy and write down or draw experiences, feelings and ideas that came to mind, this also made letting go of them during practice easier as I could come back to reflect later.

 

What I'm saying here is simply to pay attention to all the contributing factors surrounding training. Not to obsess, but simply observe first, and guide later.

Edited August 14, 2008 by Spectrum

[Rolf]

but when i talk to woman and get depressed sometimes i will ejaculate. any advices . thanks. Im desperate. Thanks.

[WhiteTiger]

Pranaman, there are many different practices.

 

Their are many that had children to reproduce.

 

I'm sure there are even Masters today that they fooled around a little bit... or even a lot... but they also spend lots more time and energy becoming masters.

 

If you think about it in basics, Long time ago man only did these things to reproduce. Thats right they didn't really fool around.

 

When you fool around it feels good and its fun right... well there are many other ways that feel good and is fun that give you better benefits. Thats at least the way i like to look at it... I'll give you a basic example. I like to exercise, that is fun and it feels good. But i also exercise for a specific purpose... something more than just doing it for fun and feels good.

[Patrick Brown]

[markern]

Maybe I'm a misanthrope, but it seems obvious to me that it is immensely difficult

to have any sort of spiritual practice while you are in any sort of

relationship---and damn near impossible if you have children.

 

 

Jack Kornfiled has a wife and children. He is the author of several spiritual

classics, a celebrated meditation teacher and claims that practicing in

relationships with people is the most important practice. He found that the internal

peace and bliss he found after several years in asian monastaries did not make him

less neurotic and actualy made him a lot worse at interacting with people and doing

anything other than meditationg and doing nice things for other people within the

highly regulated system of a monastary.

 

Kornfield did a survey, published in Yogajournal, where he interviewed 54 highly

regarded spiritual masters (eastern and western) and top students of spiritual

masters about their sex lives. Most of these preached the benefits of celibacy

outwardly, however only about a dozen of them actualy practiced celibacy tehmselves.

34 (I think it was) of them slept with their students. Some were monogamous, some

were promiscous, some were polyamorous, some were bisexual, they were perfectly

average with regards to theirs sexual habits with regards to fetishes and kinky sex

etc. None of them seemed particualry enlightened in their sex lives. Kornfields

conclusion was that al though several of this masters were highly attained and many

enlightened, enlightened action in a particular area, like that of ones sex life, presuposes that one draws that area into ones spiriutal practice and works on it and is not at all guarantied by becoming enlightened per se.

 

In the Zen tradition monks frequently have wives and children and get enlightened al

the same. If you look at the yogic tradition, a very, very large part of it`s most

important developers 2000++ years a go were hoseholders with children. One of the

most important yogis, which I don`t remember the name of, had over a 100 children.

In this century, Krishnamacharya, the founder in many ways of modern yoga, had

children and did not particulary belive in celibacy. Neither does B.K.S. Iyengar

(who claims enlightenment) nor Pathabi Jois the founder of Ashtanga yoga. Lama Surya

das has a wife and children and has, as I understand, at least reached some of the

first stages of enlightenment.

 

At a serious site about Advaita Vedanta they said that most people who get enlightened within that tradition have very active sex lives after enlightenment. I don`t remember what they said about before enlightenment.

 

It seems like Drew Hempel and the Bushmen have a nice spiritual practice that includes a form of sex and which is highly bebeficial in all regards.

 

The number of masters recognized and celibarated in India and Tibet as enlightened

who started sleeping with their students when they came to the west and did no

longer have the support structure of their monastarys to keep them in check, is

absurdly high.

 

In Yoganis AYP system they practice a very simple system of Tantra where both women

and men stay right in front of the point of no return, not actualy having orgasms,

just preorgasmic sex. Those who practice AYP find that in terms of benefits for

their practice the least beneficial is to have conventional orgasmic sex, the second

least is celibacy and the most beneficial is to have preorgasmic sex. Further more

there is some difference with regards to how long in front of the orgasm people need

to stay. Some stay quite far off, some have more or less multiorgasmic valey orgasms

and some vary. Wether men feel depleeted or energized after having multiorgasmic sex

rather than more preorgasmic, apears to be an individual matter and may vary over time.

Furthermore i have read several acounts of people who, after some years of spiritual

practice, do not any longer feel depleted even after ejaculations. This seems to be

rather rare and I haven`t come across anyone that has a technique of how to get

there, but presumably there is, since it somehow happened through the result of

spiritual practice.

[Trunk]

Kornfield did a survey, published in Yogajournal, where he interviewed ...

I'm curious to read that. Do you know the issue (year/mo) of YJ that that was in? ... or link to the article?, or title? (btw, the findings sound about right )

 

~ later ~

I did some searching and a call to YJ's back issue outlet. The article is called "Sex Lives of the Gurus" and it was from the July/Aug 1985 issue of Yoga Journal - the back issue is not available.

Edited August 15, 2008 by Trunk

[mantis]

[markern]

I'm curious to read that. Do you know the issue (year/mo) of YJ that that was in? ... or link to the article?, or title? (btw, the findings sound about right )

 

~ later ~

I did some searching and a call to YJ's back issue outlet. The article is called "Sex Lives of the Gurus" and it was from the July/Aug 1985 issue of Yoga Journal - the back issue is not available.

 

I have been trying to find it myself but not as hard as you did. I`ve only read parts of what he found when I`ve read books of his like a path with hart. His meditation center is called spirit rock by the way, maybe thay can help.

[Yoda]

I'm shooting for once a month so to speak.

[Kronos]

John Chang had a family and children.

John Chang says that you could hurt your dantien, if you have sex before practicing level 1 & 2 meditations. sex closes some doors needed by filling up your dantien.