Frantzis and China

[Pranaman]

I think B.K. Frantzis is awesome. I really like his work, so far I'm only a little into The Power Of Internal Martial Arts.

 

Do you think any devoted martial artist could waltz into China and find really high level masters as he did? Masters of Hsing-I, Pa Kua, Taiji, and nei gung/ chi kung. True taoist lineage holders? If not, i'll just learn from him someday.

Edited August 22, 2008 by Pranaman

[guangping]

I studied with Bruce for awhile, and I was good friends with the guy who ghost-wrote his first couple of books.

 

I'll let you in on a dirty little secret: while Bruce is a very good teacher, he has a problem. He can't control himself and discharges on people. This would be ok in a sparring match, but not on people whom you are teaching and are unprepared for it. Needless to say he has caused a lot of distress and a lot of his students quit on him.

 

There are lots of people who have gone to China and learned from high level teachers. There are also very high level teachers in the US, Europe, and Poland.

 

Another story: Bruce and Jerry Alan Johnson met once for a taping of a Texas based television show. Bruce kept discharging on Jerry until Jerry lost his patience and cleaned Bruce's clock. It was all caught on tape, but I think it's been long destroyed. It wasn't until years later that I told Jerry about Bruce's lack of control and he realized that Bruce wasn't doing it intentionally.

[Pranaman]

Discharge as in during martial arts training? or discharges emotional stress onto other people throughout the day?

 

So a person without that problem could gain alot from Bruce Frantzis's work and training?

 

I studied with Bruce for awhile, and I was good friends with the guy who ghost-wrote his first couple of books.

 

I'll let you in on a dirty little secret: while Bruce is a very good teacher, he has a problem. He can't control himself and discharges on people. This would be ok in a sparring match, but not on people whom you are teaching and are unprepared for it. Needless to say he has caused a lot of distress and a lot of his students quit on him.

 

There are lots of people who have gone to China and learned from high level teachers. There are also very high level teachers in the US, Europe, and Poland.

 

Another story: Bruce and Jerry Alan Johnson met once for a taping of a Texas based television show. Bruce kept discharging on Jerry until Jerry lost his patience and cleaned Bruce's clock. It was all caught on tape, but I think it's been long destroyed. It wasn't until years later that I told Jerry about Bruce's lack of control and he realized that Bruce wasn't doing it intentionally.

[The Cloudwalking Owl]

I studied with Bruce for awhile, and I was good friends with the guy who ghost-wrote his first couple of books.

 

I'll let you in on a dirty little secret: while Bruce is a very good teacher, he has a problem. He can't control himself and discharges on people. This would be ok in a sparring match, but not on people whom you are teaching and are unprepared for it. Needless to say he has caused a lot of distress and a lot of his students quit on him.

 

There are lots of people who have gone to China and learned from high level teachers. There are also very high level teachers in the US, Europe, and Poland.

 

Another story: Bruce and Jerry Alan Johnson met once for a taping of a Texas based television show. Bruce kept discharging on Jerry until Jerry lost his patience and cleaned Bruce's clock. It was all caught on tape, but I think it's been long destroyed. It wasn't until years later that I told Jerry about Bruce's lack of control and he realized that Bruce wasn't doing it intentionally.

 

Just what exactly do you mean by the term "discharge"?

[guangping]

fa jing, the martial arts discharge

[Gerard]

Discharge:

 

Empty force

 

 

Alex Kozma does it as well but he doesn't do it on purpose either, ita happens naturally. A massive amount of softness.

[Taomeow]

Discharge:

 

Empty force

Alex Kozma does it as well but he doesn't do it on purpose either, ita happens naturally. A massive amount of softness.

My TKD teacher did it to me once, accidentally. He touched -- or thought he just touched, intended to just touch lightly -- my solar plexus with his finger explaining a move ('you aim here') --

and that one finger fa jinned like crazy, shaking me to the core. When he realized what happened, he kept apologizing, but I was in a place where no apologies can help, a place of helpless anger. I couldn't wait for the class to come to an end, left to the tune of more apologies from the master, chin up, proudly and indignantly. Then -- thank god for yin -- blessed be the gods that made me a woman -- soon as I was alone, I burst into tears and cried for an hour, nonstop, non-thinking, wuwei crying, and it was gone out of my system completely. No more resentment, no more anger, no more lightning bolts in my lower dantien, all forgiven.

 

Sharing in hopes that a victim of accidental fajin out there might find it of use should the occasion arise. I've heard that sometimes the whacko feeling lingers for days, weeks or even longer after such an event... so I am sharing an "empty remedy" I discovered as accidentally and spontaneously as the master dispensed the empty force.

[Zhan Zhuang]

Ah ! Alex Kozma.

I trained with him once a few years back and the guy is incredible. He has a very relaxed power in his strikes which seem to explode within. Very humble and his lack of ego is very refreshing in these times. He has become a good friend and has helped me on my path.

 

ZZ

[Martial Development]

With all due respect, a martial arts instructor who cannot control himself is not accident-prone, he is negligent.

[Pranaman]

at my early stage, I don't care if he's negligent, just that I have something to learn from him, which might just be not to be negligent.

[Prince...]

MY gongfu brother and his Sifu have both played push hands with BK. From what I've been told, he's got the goods, but he does have a reputation for hurting his students. I won't say this is due to a lack of control on his part or something his students seem to be missing, but it does seem to fall in line with what I've heard on various forums.

 

It sounds like you have a good teacher already. I say check out his seminars or find out if he will be attending a tournament. You may like him, and you may not.

[gendao]

Another story: Bruce and Jerry Alan Johnson met once for a taping of a Texas based television show. Bruce kept discharging on Jerry until Jerry lost his patience and cleaned Bruce's clock. It was all caught on tape, but I think it's been long destroyed. It wasn't until years later that I told Jerry about Bruce's lack of control and he realized that Bruce wasn't doing it intentionally.

Someone must still have that tape...what I would give to watch that!

[Vajrasattva]

Ah ! Alex Kozma.

I trained with him once a few years back and the guy is incredible. He has a very relaxed power in his strikes which seem to explode within. Very humble and his lack of ego is very refreshing in these times. He has become a good friend and has helped me on my path.

 

ZZ

 

 

ALEX is GREAT

 

Glenn Morris told me a story that Cheng De Wu told him about BK. Bsically that he had massive ego and energy issues. But that he got much better after going to China to met Liu H.C

[Taiji Bum]

From what I've been told, he's got the goods, but he does have a reputation for hurting his students.

Didn't Yang Chen Fu also have a reputation for hurting his students? I think Chen Man Ching used to talk about the beatings he used to get.

[SFJane]

fa jin.. not sure empty force is a good description at all.

 

If Big K puts his hands on you and pulses, there is nothing empty about it all. your ass will move.

 

Jerry Alan Johnson is about the only other guy I would care to train with other than Bruce. Unfortunately I've never met him.

 

There is a lot of interesting stories about Bruce and his harming students. I am not cutting myself out to be an apologist for him (well maybe I am a little).

 

I think I partially understand Bruce even though I have had no where as much exposure to him as others have. Nor have I ever sat down with a lot of one on one chat time with him either.

 

Bruce witnessed a stabbing as a young teen and his mother apparently was severely mentally ill like mine. Bruce told me personally that his mother once tried to smother him with a pillow and threatened to drop baby Bruce off a manhattan apartment balcony.

 

I grew up with violence and mental illness. I became a very mean person for a long time as a result. All these stories I hear about Bruce fucking people up. His search for the the *real goods* His need to make sure this stuff works. His walking up and challenging or outright assaulting various teachers both here and abroad. I have done some of the same things for the same reasons.

 

I shake my head and smile whenever I hear about Bruce's ego conflicts and his occasional comeuppance. Jerry Alan Johnson was not the only one to handle Bruce. One of the reasons I trained with Peter Ralston was a story floating around about how Kumar challenged Peter in the lobby of a hotel in China after Peter won an all open full contact invitational in the 70s. They got into the classic push hands position and Peter handled him instantly.

 

I've had my ass beat more times than I can count. I have also hurt my share of teachers, students and sparring partners during my 20s. I was always practicing seriously and never playing around. The problem with that approach was that I was the only one who knew I was not playing around and not necessarily my sparring partners. I don't know if the people Kumar injures are just martially incompetent, physically fragile or just not paying attention.

 

His stuff works. It works even better if you train it constantly and do basic power training. I can personally attest that his martial stuff has saved my ass. I don't know how many other Kumarites ever found themselves living in low income areas, homeless, jobless. I was a drug dealer for awhile to make ends meet. I have tested Kumar's fa jin in self defense and it works.

 

I have 3 dog eared, cover-loose, pages falling out copies of the Power Of Internal Martial Arts.

 

The most important information, the entire purpose behind my current training, is to actualize the information on pages 63-64.

 

I have often considered having the 16 part nei gung system tatooed on my arms but its permanently in my memory now, no need for ink.

 

Anyway, I feel a kind of spiritual connection with Bruce and his teachings sometimes. He walked with the dark side of the force in his heart for a long time and so did I.

[gendao]

I have 3 dog eared, cover-loose, pages falling out copies of the Power Of Internal Martial Arts.

 

The most important information, the entire purpose behind my current training, is to actualize the information on pages 63-64.

And that would be....?

[SFJane]

And that would be....?

 

In no particular order

 

1, breathing, beginning, intermediate, advanced

2, precision, effortless biomechanical alignments

3, stretchings, wrappings and twistings of soft tissue

4, hip, knee and elbow coordination

5, circulating energy through energy channels, meridians and reservoirs

6, opening the energy gates of your body,

7, gaining control of the spine and spinal pump power

8 controlling left and right side of the body

9 openings and closings of the body

10, physically moving along the meridian flows

11, dissolving, inner and outer

12, absorbing and projecting energy into the body anywhere, at will

13 working with the energy of the aura

14, working with the lower dan tien

15 working with upper and middle dan tien

16, fusing everything into a single connected energetic whole, the 1 unified Chi

 

 

that should be more or less accurate without looking

 

in analysis, the 16 parts is Bruce's version of marketing them

 

they are arbitrary. You could break them down and make a 30 part nei gung system or you could absorb and compile some of them and make it an 8 part nei gung system

 

in the meantime, more important than forms, lineage and style, these nei gung components are what I practice, and when I teach, that is what I will teach.

 

to me, its not even worth bothering with nei jia unless you know and work on these principles, otherwise you might as well go golf or play Tekken because your internals are going to be weak without this knowledge and being able to manifest it on the spot on demand is the sign of a serious practitioner, in my opinion.

[Sahaj Nath]

In no particular order

 

1, breathing, beginning, intermediate, advanced

2, precision, effortless biomechanical alignments

3, stretchings, wrappings and twistings of soft tissue

4, hip, knee and elbow coordination

5, circulating energy through energy channels, meridians and reservoirs

6, opening the energy gates of your body,

7, gaining control of the spine and spinal pump power

8 controlling left and right side of the body

9 openings and closings of the body

10, physically moving along the meridian flows

11, dissolving, inner and outer

12, absorbing and projecting energy into the body anywhere, at will

13 working with the energy of the aura

14, working with the lower dan tien

15 working with upper and middle dan tien

16, fusing everything into a single connected energetic whole, the 1 unified Chi

that should be more or less accurate without looking

 

in analysis, the 16 parts is Bruce's version of marketing them

 

they are arbitrary. You could break them down and make a 30 part nei gung system or you could absorb and compile some of them and make it an 8 part nei gung system

 

in the meantime, more important than forms, lineage and style, these nei gung components are what I practice, and when I teach, that is what I will teach.

 

to me, its not even worth bothering with nei jia unless you know and work on these principles, otherwise you might as well go golf or play Tekken because your internals are going to be weak without this knowledge and being able to manifest it on the spot on demand is the sign of a serious practitioner, in my opinion.

 

 

as always,

 

well said, jane.

[tidalwave]

I'll let you in on a dirty little secret: while Bruce is a very good teacher, he has a problem. He can't control himself and discharges on people. This would be ok in a sparring match, but not on people whom you are teaching and are unprepared for it. Needless to say he has caused a lot of distress and a lot of his students quit on him.

 

 

This might have been true 15-20 years ago, before Bruce broke his back,but not so much after that.

He has mellowed.

I never witnessed anything like that while attending many of his retreats from 1996 to 2002.

Some people get annoied of his personality, but thats another story..

[Prince...]

Thanks for your input, Jane. Like my Taiji brother told me, Bruce has the goods. He said I should try to attend one of his seminars or meeting him at a tournament to get some advice...but then he said "don't be too hurt if he puts your ass through a wall, just take your humble pie and go practice."

[guangping]

" This might have been true 15-20 years ago, before Bruce broke his back,but not so much after that.

He has mellowed. I never witnessed anything like that while attending many of his retreats from 1996 to 2002.

Some people get annoied of his personality, but thats another story.. "

 

 

The incidents I personally witnessed happened in some workshops that I convinced some friends of mine in the Bay area to attend. I don't remember the year but it was when he was first getting established after coming back from China. When demonstrating techniques and in pushing hands he discharged fa jing on two of my friends, and had to be told to cut it out. It was clear he didn't mean to and didn't have the control. One friend went on to study with him for several years and confirmed that he hadn't gained any better control.

 

I take nothing away from his being a good teacher, I learned a lot from him and his books are filled with good information. I just found better teachers who were more compatible with my personality.

[Pranaman]

from interview and his books. He has good quality teachings. It might be true that he is more focused on teaching than progressing himself, maybe his personality crams everyone's style in one way or another, maybe his Chen and Yang style isn't well enough to apply martially, but we can all agree on at least two things about him. He is showing a lot of people good things that will them improve their lives, and he does understand many many things that are beyond what he and many others, but not all others, can do. Without his book I would have never known you can get to a level in Baguazhang where you can discharge spiritual energy into people, actually helping them on their path, and possibly neutralizing the fight.

[Pietro]

In no particular order

 

1, breathing, beginning, intermediate, advanced

2, precision, effortless biomechanical alignments

3, stretchings, wrappings and twistings of soft tissue

4, hip, knee and elbow coordination

5, circulating energy through energy channels, meridians and reservoirs

6, opening the energy gates of your body,

7, gaining control of the spine and spinal pump power

8 controlling left and right side of the body

9 openings and closings of the body

10, physically moving along the meridian flows

11, dissolving, inner and outer

12, absorbing and projecting energy into the body anywhere, at will

13 working with the energy of the aura

14, working with the lower dan tien

15 working with upper and middle dan tien

16, fusing everything into a single connected energetic whole, the 1 unified Chi

that should be more or less accurate without looking

...

 

The 16 nei gung by memory! I'm impressed. FYI, last april Bruce was teaching the 15th in Germany. That is the middle dan Tien. But the real weird things was that although there was a lot of students there were many more that were missing. I mean of all the old guys I could count just 3 or 4. Maybe it was because it was germany. But my understanding was that it was the first time he was teaching this stuff. And none of those people bothered to come. Do you know of any other time he has been teaching the 15th?

[SFJane]

Thanks Hundun

 

 

 

I'll let you in on a dirty little secret: while Bruce is a very good teacher, he has a problem. He can't control himself and discharges on people. This would be ok in a sparring match, but not on people whom you are teaching and are unprepared for it. Needless to say he has caused a lot of distress and a lot of his students quit on him.

 

I have heard several such stories as well and it seems most were before the back accident. He never injured anyone at any event I attended. He did Fa Jin on me more than once and never harmed me. I can also say I have heard more recent injuries on the west and east coast to students. It never happened in my sight so.

 

 

 

Thanks for your input, Jane. Like my Taiji brother told me, Bruce has the goods. He said I should try to attend one of his seminars or meeting him at a tournament to get some advice...but then he said "don't be too hurt if he puts your ass through a wall, just take your humble pie and go practice."

 

You are welcome. The most generous serving of humble pie I received was psychological. He taught me the mindset needed to self cognitive behavioral therapy in the space of 5 minutes. 12 + shrinks and 10 years of therapy had never yielded that mind set from any of the so called mental health pros.

 

 

The 16 nei gung by memory! I'm impressed. FYI, last april Bruce was teaching the 15th in Germany. That is the middle dan Tien. But the real weird things was that although there was a lot of students there were many more that were missing. I mean of all the old guys I could count just 3 or 4. Maybe it was because it was germany. But my understanding was that it was the first time he was teaching this stuff. And none of those people bothered to come. Do you know of any other time he has been teaching the 15th?

 

I don't know who trains with K these days I've really been away from current events with the TEA crowd for awhile now.

 

As for any other times that he has dealt with the middle dantien. In passing in the spinal chi gung retreat and around the middle of the water method sitting retreat back exactly 8 years ago August 2000.

 

I can never forget it either. I knew I had plenty of dark stuff in there from past events. In retrospect, I found the lower and upper much easier. Working the middle use to leave me off kilter for awhile before it stabilized.

However I did not fall apart at the retreat. Actually quite the opposite. At one point, dissolving the heart, over and over, longer and longer, something broke loose.

 

For most of my life everything had always been serious business and I was cut off from joy in a way the seriously crippled me. So it was ironic that it was not fear or pain or sadness but good, healthy spontaneous chuckles which built rapidly to laughter. I had nothing to laugh about but that had nothing to do with it. It was at times giggly and others guffawish and it took some restraint not to lolzorz at lunch and dinner with the others. I did not want to detract from anyone's groove or anything. Each laugh spell allowed me to relax deeper and deeper inward into an area that I was previously reluctant to go. It was great stuff. I was changed after that. I was never as serious ever again and I allowed myself to be amused and entertained without restraint in front of others as a result.

 

 

I think B.K. Frantzis is awesome. I really like his work, so far I'm only a little into The Power Of Internal Martial Arts.

 

Do you think any devoted martial artist could waltz into China and find really high level masters as he did? Masters of Hsing-I, Pa Kua, Taiji, and nei gung/ chi kung. True taoist lineage holders? If not, i'll just learn from him someday.

 

Buy another copy now. Sleep with it under your pillow to psychically absorb the information.

 

Bruce was able to learn a great deal because he learned Chinese fluently. If you were fluent in Chinese, I daresay it would be easier to get *in* wherever in happens to be get the good stuff.

 

I first saw tai chi with my own eyes in Hong Kong at age 13. I knew it was tai chi because I read about it and was looking for it when I got there. After seeing it I wanted to learn it myself.

 

At age 15 I bought his book about Energy Gates and read his bio of course. I knew I wanted to study with him then and there. Bruce has already done the work. He's collated the data and tempered it with experience. He has done the Pilgrimage quest. It just makes sense to train with him. Training with him one day can yield a treasury of knowledge greater than a year spent with other teachers. It really is worth it if you can mange it.

[Pietro]

As for any other times that he has dealt with the middle dantien. In passing in the spinal chi gung retreat and around the middle of the water method sitting retreat back exactly 8 years ago August 2000.

 

I can never forget it either. I knew I had plenty of dark stuff in there from past events. In retrospect, I found the lower and upper much easier. Working the middle use to leave me off kilter for awhile before it stabilized.

However I did not fall apart at the retreat. Actually quite the opposite. At one point, dissolving the heart, over and over, longer and longer, something broke loose.

 

 

We weren't dissolving the Heart, Jane. We were opening the heartmind. Which my understanding is that is something different. That was done through a combination of sincronised movement and breathing along the spine. Can't get into much details or I'll have everybody trying things, and you know I am no way to teach those stuff. But I can enter into details in a PM with you if you wish so.

 

After we opened the heart mind there was a bunch of techniques that were taught. But 4 days out of 5 were just to open the heart mind.