Qi, Self, & Consciousness

[Unconditioned]

Hello!

 

I have been studying various eastern philosophies/meditations/traditions/etc for the last couple of years now. I have come to understand a few Truths but do not know much about the pragmatic Taoist views or much about Taoism.

 

As I understand it, what we are is consciousness itself... the pure energy from which all things manifest themselves... the source 'behind' all existence. This source is unconditioned, it is the purest of pure, it cannot be conceptualized as that only provides a label and does not do justice to what actually IS.

 

So that said, is Qi/Chi/energy that unlimited source itself or is it a form/manifestation from the purest source... that which we really are?

 

Also, as I understand it, Tai Chi is the art of using/understanding manifested energy - is that the case? I'd like to start exploring this area more than just through my daily meditation but right now I am using my own techniques from no guru or teacher... can someone help me understand what the practice of Taoism is?

 

I hope this makes sense.... I know I'd probably be locked up if I talked about things like this with the people I know around me here in Boston =)

 

Thank you =)

[rain]

You seem to have a broad mental perspective,

your own techniques, thats nice, thats a place from where to start...

what are they exactly?

[Unconditioned]

You seem to have a broad mental perspective,

your own techniques, thats nice, thats a place from where to start...

what are they exactly?

 

They are very simple actually but I've found them useful. Here are a few:

 

1. Peering into darkness/looking past the physical. This is an open eye meditation that I use mostly at night but have used it in daylight as well. Basically, you go to a place/room that is as dark as you can make it. You then sit in whichever position suits you best to be comfortable then literally look into the darkness with deep concentration. If thoughts arise, I fix my mind on darkness being the base upon which everything else stands. Then eventually that disolves and I am left in a state where I feel 'big', 'expansive', etc. when doing this for longer periods of time (more than 30 minutes) I find that I lose touch with my body completely... as though it's not there.

 

2. Extreme listening (can be extended to other senses). This one sounds simple but took me some practice to get it right. Basically, I listen to calm music but focus on the sounds themselves. So when words come up I try not to conceptualize what the singer is saying but focus purely on the sounds. This requires an intense concentration which I believe has helped me to improve my ability to focus.

 

3. Expansive Sky. I either lay down outside or just sit outside and look up at the sky. I concentrate on how vast/expansive it is. While looking up I visualize and try to experience just how big it is, how far the distance is between me and it. This helped me to realize how big an expansive life is... that it is everywhere and that I am in it.

 

To be honest, I'm not sure if these are very helpful or not but for me they've helped me to understand a bit about the nature of life, mind, etc. I also practice breath meditation with an incremental focus on the Chakras from root to crown. Most of these have been pure trial and error... when I feel energy building from doing something, I'll continue doing that thing and see how far I can take it. But, I'd like to understand what practice is from a Taoist perspective.

[phore]

The tao (consciousness, love) comes from the void (nothing). It is the void with form. Chi comes from the tao. All matter and energy is a manifestation of chi. Chi has polarity. it is yin or yang.

 

Tai chi is a martial art that converts chi to internal power.

Chi kung (also spelled qigong) uses exercises and breath to build chi. It is where the power for internal martial arts and healing arts comes from.

 

Nei kung (also neigong)is internal exercise. its sort of like an advanced version of Chi kung.

 

 

I have experimented with various taoist chi kung practices and tantra(general term for practices using energy)

It never really took off for me until i started practicing kunlun neigung. check out the websights below for more information.

 

Kunlunbliss.com

lamathunderbolt.com

 

The book contains the the kunlun neigung system and some other exercises

Golden flower of maoshan (a internal alchemy exercise)

Red sun (opening the heart)

Maoshan traveling hands (spirit travel)

5 elements qigong (standing stakes to develop internal power for martial arts, it also cleanses the body)

Climbing the peaks of mount kunlun (dual cultivation to be used with a partner)

 

 

Kunlun neigung contains 3 levels

L1 open up to the spontaneous energy (bliss) and clear out the body and mind of energy blockages.

L2 compress the energy and add more. this stage leads to enlightenment and the golden dragon body

L3 Cool the energy, grounding.

 

The seminar is really intense according to people who have attended. You can also leard red phoenix there (Brain alchemy)

 

Its the most powerful system ive practiced and the cheapest. i would strongly recommend it.

Edited August 22, 2008 by phore

[Unconditioned]

The tao (consciousness, love) comes from the void (nothing). It is the void with form. Chi comes from the tao. All matter and energy is a manifestation of chi. Chi has polarity. it is yin or yang.

 

Tai chi is a martial art that converts chi to internal power.

Chi kung (also spelled qigong) uses exercises and breath to build chi. It is where the power for internal martial arts and healing arts comes from.

 

Nei kung (also neigong)is internal exercise. its sort of like an advanced version of Chi kung.

I have experimented with various taoist chi kung practices and tantra(general term for practices using energy)

It never really took off for me until i started practicing kunlun neigung. check out the websights below for more information.

 

Kunlunbliss.com

lamathunderbolt.com

 

The book contains the the kunlun neigung system and some other exercises

Golden flower of maoshan (a internal alchemy exercise)

Red sun (opening the heart)

Maoshan traveling hands (spirit travel)

5 elements qigong (standing stakes to develop internal power for martial arts, it also cleanses the body)

Climbing the peaks of mount kunlun (dual cultivation to be used with a partner)

Kunlun neigung contains 3 levels

L1 open up to the spontaneous energy (bliss) and clear out the body and mind of energy blockages.

L2 compress the energy and add more. this stage leads to enlightenment and the golden dragon body

L3 Cool the energy, grounding.

 

The seminar is really intense according to people who have attended. You can also leard red phoenix there (Brain alchemy)

 

Its the most powerful system ive practiced and the cheapest. i would strongly recommend it.

 

Please understand that I am not intending my next question as argumentative. I have been manipulated through religion/paths in the past and always approach with caution.

 

I get teh sense that this is very heavily marketed. Especially the images of glowing hands and body in the FAQ of the site. Is there a sample of the teachings available or something I could use for some additional validation before I go and explore this?

[phore]

I understand. When i first saw the site i thought it was by far the most preposterous thing i have ever seen anywhere. The only thing that kept me from completely disregarding it was that it was considered to be a good system by some people i trust.

i am in no way affiliated with the kunlun system. ive never even been to a seminar.

My practice sessions looked pretty much like the people from the movie from the first day of level 1 until i started level 2. level 2 makes the energy flow a lot smoother.

 

For additional validation a lot of people practice kunlun on this forum. you could try reading their practice journals.

 

 

Try

yoda

de paradice

phore

Augustleo

Rain

Cat

Lotus flower

winpro07

Ben koontz

Freeform

 

And i acknowledge that it looks heavily marketed. But they only have one book out and it costs $20 or $30 if you want to go all out and buy the color edition.

Edited August 22, 2008 by phore

[Unconditioned]

I understand. When i first saw the site i thought it was by far the most preposterous thing i have ever seen anywhere. The only thing that kept me from completely disregarding it was that it was considered to be a good system by some people i trust.

i am in no way affiliated with the kunlun system. ive never even been to a seminar.

My practice sessions looked pretty much like the people from the movie from the first day of level 1 until i started level 2. level 2 makes the energy flow a lot smoother.

 

For additional validation a lot of people practice kunlun on this forum. you could try reading their practice journals.

Try

yoda

de paradice

phore

Augustleo

Rain

Cat

Lotus flower

winpro07

Ben koontz

Freeform

 

And i acknowledge that it looks heavily marketed. But they only have one book out and it costs $20 or $30 if you want to go all out and buy the color edition.

 

Thank you for being understanding $20 at a possibility of understanding some very profound things is a very small risk, thanks again!

[rain]

..........

Edited August 23, 2008 by rain

[phore]

welcome

Oh yea if you dont plan to go to the seminar you can try the attunement technique in my practice journal

http://www.thetaobums.com/insights-t6271.html

 

It has worked well for me but probably isnt as strong as maxes attunement.

[doc benway]

I have been studying various eastern philosophies/meditations/traditions/etc for the last couple of years now. I have come to understand a few Truths but do not know much about the pragmatic Taoist views or much about Taoism.

 

As I understand it, what we are is consciousness itself... the pure energy from which all things manifest themselves... the source 'behind' all existence. This source is unconditioned, it is the purest of pure, it cannot be conceptualized as that only provides a label and does not do justice to what actually IS.

I don't know if these ideas come from your intellect or experience - threre is an important distinction there.

Your post certainly sounds as if you've already seen through much of the illusion already, and yet you are still not quite certain.

 

So that said, is Qi/Chi/energy that unlimited source itself or is it a form/manifestation from the purest source... that which we really are?

If you have understood the nature of labels and the real, why ask this question?

Clearly Qi/Chi/energy are labels we put on something that is beyond labels...

I don't mean to be preachy, but why not apply your earlier insight to the label Qi and the label Dao and all of the other labels.

You already know the answers to your questions, I think.

 

Also, as I understand it, Tai Chi is the art of using/understanding manifested energy - is that the case? I'd like to start exploring this area more than just through my daily meditation but right now I am using my own techniques from no guru or teacher... can someone help me understand what the practice of Taoism is?

 

I hope this makes sense.... I know I'd probably be locked up if I talked about things like this with the people I know around me here in Boston =)

 

Thank you =)

Taijiquan is a martial art that developed as a result of principles of mutual arising, yin/yang theory, and Daoist cultivation being applied to martial arts over the past few hundred years or so. Later on, simply practicing the form became popular as a moving meditation and a path toward mental and physical integration and cultivation. That's basically the story of Taijiquan as I see it. It's a wonderful discipline.

 

Daoism is a religious, cultural, philosophical, mystical, and social tradition of extraordinairy complexity and variety that has it's roots in Chinese shamanism. It means many things to many different peoples. It's not easy to define or pin down.

 

You clearly have a lot of insight into real truth.

Methods like Kunlun, Taiji, and meditation will perhaps give some additional support to your insights. Some may be more exciting and others more subliminal. Beware getting attached to the path. It sounds as if you've come far through simple observation, awareness, and self inquiry. That is the true path. Everything else is gimmick and entertainment. Sooner or later you will return to the simple.

 

Good luck in your search - you've already found what you're looking for, I think, but there's nothing more challenging than letting go of the quest...

_/\_

[rain]

They are very simple actually but I've found them useful. Here are a few:

 

1. Peering into darkness/looking past the physical. This is an open eye meditation that I use mostly at night but have used it in daylight as well. Basically, you go to a place/room that is as dark as you can make it. You then sit in whichever position suits you best to be comfortable then literally look into the darkness with deep concentration. If thoughts arise, I fix my mind on darkness being the base upon which everything else stands. Then eventually that disolves and I am left in a state where I feel 'big', 'expansive', etc. when doing this for longer periods of time (more than 30 minutes) I find that I lose touch with my body completely... as though it's not there.

--------

Classic meditation. when you go big/expansive..does it stop there?have you ever forgotten yourself?

-----------------

2. Extreme listening (can be extended to other senses). This one sounds simple but took me some practice to get it right. Basically, I listen to calm music but focus on the sounds themselves. So when words come up I try not to conceptualize what the singer is saying but focus purely on the sounds. This requires an intense concentration which I believe has helped me to improve my ability to focus.

---------------

I can very much relate to that exercise. I have benefited much from listening to the pitch and tone in peoples speech, it is a source of information that is running paralell withthe mental context of the language. splitting off your focus like that can you train on participating on more than one level.

-----------------------

3. Expansive Sky. I either lay down outside or just sit outside and look up at the sky. I concentrate on how vast/expansive it is. While looking up I visualize and try to experience just how big it is, how far the distance is between me and it. This helped me to realize how big an expansive life is... that it is everywhere and that I am in it.

---------------

Or that you are everywhere and it in you? :-)

 

So. ; shapening focus, mental discipline, letting go, regarding thoughts without attaching and feeding, discriminating, working on duality..seems good.

Obviously mind influences the body, but do you practise a physical discipline to realize these good perceptions of yours? Like qigong or taiji, ma or yoga, or..treeclimbing , diving, parchuting, carving, linewalking, bellydance, for thats sake. Body's state influences mind.

------------------------------------

To be honest, I'm not sure if these are very helpful or not but for me they've helped me to understand a bit about the nature of life, mind, etc. I also practice breath meditation with an incremental focus on the Chakras from root to crown. Most of these have been pure trial and error... when I feel energy building from doing something, I'll continue doing that thing and see how far I can take it. But, I'd like to understand what practice is from a Taoist perspective.

 

------------------

I cannot give you a taoist recipe. I started with sitting and forgetting because I was exhausted by an undisciplined "limitless" playful mind playing with and forever questioning all & also the basic principles in tao, and felt I needed to descend and communicate with the spirit of my body, to adress personal relativity in the attempt of healing my self. The meditation, tao principles, medicine, the physical training in yoga, medical qigong, kunlun, taekwondo and massage has finally come together in a common language that seems to me both personal and universal, practical and abstract. While practising paralell I discover and am dis-covered, hopefully gradually transformed, maybe..healed. Fat chance perhaps, but it is has become an energy rewarding way of life, I no longer get ill (knock on wood), and life has a hightened sense of purpose. Everyday I see how much I do not know, especially when listening to the many contributors on this forum.

Edited August 23, 2008 by rain

[Unconditioned]

I don't know if these ideas come from your intellect or experience - there is an important distinction there.

Your post certainly sounds as if you've already seen through much of the illusion already, and yet you are still not quite certain.

 

I was/am a big skeptic. I've been naive in the past with religion so I basically started asking myself A LOT of questions.... made a lot of observations about myself, other people, etc. And had this intuitive feeling that there was something more. I disagreed with a lot of dogma and the reasons why were the labels themselves that can be so misleading.

Clearly Qi/Chi/energy are labels we put on something that is beyond labels...

I don't mean to be preachy, but why not apply your earlier insight to the label Qi and the label Dao and all of the other labels.

The question is more of 'what is this substance? this force? how does it work?' just a curiosity about this 'new thing' I've experienced.

You already know the answers to your questions, I think.

 

I believe you're right =) I occasionally have to work out the doubts that arise from time to time... then like a slap in the face I remember what's really going on and they dissolve.

 

Taijiquan is a martial art that developed as a result of principles of mutual arising, yin/yang theory, and Daoist cultivation being applied to martial arts over the past few hundred years or so. Later on, simply practicing the form became popular as a moving meditation and a path toward mental and physical integration and cultivation. That's basically the story of Taijiquan as I see it. It's a wonderful discipline.

 

Daoism is a religious, cultural, philosophical, mystical, and social tradition of extraordinary complexity and variety that has it's roots in Chinese shamanism. It means many things to many different peoples. It's not easy to define or pin down.

 

You clearly have a lot of insight into real truth.

Methods like Kunlun, Taiji, and meditation will perhaps give some additional support to your insights. Some may be more exciting and others more subliminal. Beware getting attached to the path. It sounds as if you've come far through simple observation, awareness, and self inquiry. That is the true path. Everything else is gimmick and entertainment. Sooner or later you will return to the simple.

 

That was my intuition as well but when you're working alone in your room with no one else to talk to about what you're thinking.. well no one who you feel will understand.. skepticism kicks in and every now. Discussion helps me to validate to some degree but even then I have to strip opinions away and just let things be.

 

I do not do any form of physical meditation at this point but may try a class in the fall. Sometimes, like in meditation, I wonder... but more and more I'm able to just be, live, etc. and am not getting caught up in mentation/labeling. So I'm hopeful that over time I will become less and less until 'I' is no more and I AM.

Good luck in your search - you've already found what you're looking for, I think, but there's nothing more challenging than letting go of the quest...

_/\_

 

Thank you for your comments, they have been very helpful to me =)

[Unconditioned]

Classic meditation. when you go big/expansive..does it stop there?have you ever forgotten yourself?

 

Yes - there are times when in deep meditation there is complete stillness and just this intense feeling of just existing... even that doesn't do justice what i'm trying to describe.

 

I can very much relate to that exercise. I have benefited much from listening to the pitch and tone in peoples speech, it is a source of information that is running paralell withthe mental context of the language. splitting off your focus like that can you train on participating on more than one level.

 

...

 

Or that you are everywhere and it in you? :-)

 

 

Thanks for the reminder =)

 

So. ; shapening focus, mental discipline, letting go, regarding thoughts without attaching and feeding, discriminating, working on duality..seems good.

Obviously mind influences the body, but do you practise a physical discipline to realize these good perceptions of yours? Like qigong or taiji, ma or yoga, or..treeclimbing , diving, parchuting, carving, linewalking, bellydance, for thats sake. Body's state influences mind.

This is where I feel I am deficient - using the body to influence mind. Aside from breathing exercises and meditation, I have not explored other physical ways but as I replied to Steve's post, I am going to likely signup for Tai Chi when I move next week.

 

I cannot give you a taoist recipe. I started with sitting and forgetting because I was exhausted by an undisciplined "limitless" playful mind playing with and forever questioning all & also the basic principles in tao, and felt I needed to descend and communicate with the spirit of my body, to adress personal relativity in the attempt of healing my self. The meditation, tao principles, medicine, the physical training in yoga, medical qigong, kunlun, taekwondo and massage has finally come together in a common language that seems to me both personal and universal, practical and abstract. While practising paralell I discover and am dis-covered, hopefully gradually transformed, maybe..healed. Fat chance perhaps, but it is has become an energy rewarding way of life, I no longer get ill (knock on wood), and life has a hightened sense of purpose. Everyday I see how much I do not know, especially when listening to the many contributors on this forum.

 

It's extremely encouraging to hear of other people who understand. Sometimes I get the sense that this type of understanding is spreading more and more... at least that's my wish.

 

Thank you for taking the time to reply and share your personal experience =)

[doc benway]

The question is more of 'what is this substance? this force? how does it work?' just a curiosity about this 'new thing' I've experienced.

Check out the active thread on the topic if you haven't already. A number of us have described some of our ideas there and in similar previous threads in the past.

 

If you are commited to developing an understanding of Qi, I'd strongly support your thought of trying Taiji. Qigong, Neigong, and Daoist meditation are also very good approaches.

 

I don't think that anything written about Qi is of very much value. Your own experience of it is significant. Everything else is just intellectual indulgence, IMO. Not that intellectual stuff is necessarily bad, but it won't get you any closer to understanding or "cultivating" the real thing. If you start practicing in earnest, you'll see what I mean soon enough.