What is the goal of Taoism?

[Unconditioned]

THE SECRET OF THE GOLDEN FLOWER- http://www.alchemylab.com/golden_flower.htm

 

Aren't we pure energy to begin with? No. We're beings of matter. If you believe your pure energy try walking through a wall or flying. I've heard people argue that were already pure energy before and then wax vexy about quantum level stuff and that our bodies are primarily space as is everything else, but the "walking through the wall" experiment proves them to be just word games. We are physical state beings and not energy state beings.

 

Doesn't it just depend on your perception at the gross level vs. the internal level? Maybe.... are you one of those people who like to say "were already one with the universe" if I were to say, "I want to be one with the universe"? In the ascended state you are one with the universe to the point that your aware of EVERYTHING going on here on earth. Such as you know what I am drinking and if I like it or not as I am in Michigan while your there in Mass. Its not a matter of perspective on internal and external in my opinion.

 

What benefit does this have? Back to my original question: why? what is the goal of that? Immortality. You might say were already immortal but we are not. In the ascended state if you take a bullet to the head it means nothing since you are pure energy. If you do discorperate you can make yourself a new body at will. You can spend the morning on the surface of the sun, noon on the moon and evening eating dinner in Paris if you want or you can discorperate and be beyond time and space.

 

Can you do any of that? You might say you dont want to but hey.... I do. Thats my goal in practicing Taoism. Can you dig it?

 

I see where you're coming from. Goals differ for everyone I'm not going to get into the quantum debate lol all that does is cause arguments, make people angry, etc. It's like trying to convince someone that the color blue is better than the color red - a matter of beliefs and preferences.

 

Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions, most appreciated!

[exorcist_1699]

I think nothing is better than grasping your destiny in your own hands, free of any physical and spiritual limitation , ie, an ability of attaining absolute freedom or something close to it .

 

Unifying with Tao , absorbing pre-heaven qi in your own body , will enable you to reach absolute freedom ...for everything is composed of qi ; it just makes you manipulate physical things at a much higher level that you previously couldn't do in daily life .

 

 

The technique we rely on strangely is called WU WEI ( doing nothing) , which gives us the ability of doing everything , accomplishing everything provided that you know how to enter the world of qi . .

Edited August 29, 2008 by exorcist_1699

[doc benway]

 

Aren't we pure energy to begin with? No. We're beings of matter.

With all due respect, matter is energy. That relationship is well established beyond conjecture.

[Taiji Bum]

With all due respect, matter is energy. That relationship is well established beyond conjecture.

There is a relationship between matter and energy but to say they are the same thing makes no scientific sense. Energy is the capacity of a physical system to perform work.

[Patrick Brown]

There is a relationship between matter and energy but to say they are the same thing makes no scientific sense. Energy is the capacity of a physical system to perform work.

I think this is one of those paradox's that needs to be crept-up-on very slowly to perceive the truth bit like death and reincarnation. I figure subatomic particles are like energy fields that have curved in on themselves so in effect they are like universes. We live in a universe and perceive an eternal upward movement in frequency although I think there is a threshold at which we break out of this universe into a greater universe. It's interesting if we think of wave particle duality and think that it's a threshold where photons break their curved time space into a greater universe, a kind of enlightenment.

 

We are told that nothing can move faster than light (although, apparently, something does radiate from black holes) but if we think of an ever ascending scale then we may realise that we can only ever move closer to the light. I figure that this is what is meant by the 'eternal return'. As to whether there really is an eternally ascending scale or simply a circle doesn't really seem important because we have been taught that it's all about NOW.

 

Hmm interesting that when we sleep we're in 'our universe' yet we can sometimes, seemingly, connect to 'the universe'! Seems to me that it's all holistic and we're living each others lives for eternity, perhaps?

 

Maybe we shouldn't worry about it and just enjoy it?

Edited August 29, 2008 by Patrick Brown

[Stigweard]

There is a relationship between matter and energy but to say they are the same thing makes no scientific sense. Energy is the capacity of a physical system to perform work.

 

But to say they are different is to create polarity and seperateness within your being. Perhaps a sliding scale spectrum model is closer to the truth.

[doc benway]

Matter is a human description of one aspect of energy that is experienced by the human organsim through the sense of touch. Color and light is energy experienced through vision, sound through hearing, and so forth. Sort of like the 3 blind men describing an elephant but at a different level. If you deconstruct matter you ultimately are left with nothing but energetic subatomic particles. Even those particles are constantly being deconstructed to less and less "matter-like" representations. Our scientific model is getting closer to a pure energy description (eg Superstring theory, Quantum theory) which would be completely consistent with many Eastern descriptions of the universe (not to mention my own empiric experience through meditation). We get too hung up on words and concepts. Good advice Patrick - enjoying it is best.

 

Patrick - nice discussion. We're told nothing travels faster than light but what about Bell's inequality and other similar results more recently regarding photon interaction? We certainly don't understand it all. Science will forever have limitations, namely - the limitation of rational human intellect.

[Hua Dao]

No. To me it's just another label I don't come from a Taoist background so some of the usual terms are foreign to me.

 

My point about "To where? From where?" is that to me there is no where to ascend to. We're already there, just need to be aware of our nature, confide in that infinite space (Tao), and ultimately drop the ego mind and merge with the Tao. All of which can be done through many means.

 

I believe seadog said it best in the last post:

Tools, guidance, and their labels have their purpose. But to hammer a nail into a board one doesn't need to know all the different shapes, sizes, uses, history, etc. of a hammer.

 

I mean no disrespect to anyone here so I apologize if I have done so.

 

Thanks for all the replies =)

 

 

 

In Daoist meditation you want to cultivate the 5 shens/spirits and then unify them into the one central shen. The five shens reside in the 5 organs and each has an opening to the outside that needs to be closed and turned inward to meditate - hun/liver - eyes - draw back in through the eyes and don't look outside, zhi/kidney - ears- close off and don't listen etc. Then when you're closed off to the outside it is very easy for the dream-like and imaginitive 'hun' spirit to become active and distracting so you need to quiet and calm the 'hun' which possibly has been poorly translated as the 'ego mind'. You don't want to attempt to quiet the 'shen' consciousness mind (you), only the 'hun', so you have to understand the difference between the 2.

 

The state of wuwei is achieved when the 5 shens have been cultivated and unified into the central shen/spirit that resides in the heart. All decisions are instantaneous and correct without doubt or inner debate. All physical actions are agile and done with minimal required energy and follow the most appropriate path in that instance. Thought without thought. Doing without doing. Typically we have an inner dialogue that slows down thought -heart communicating with spleen, or not acting quickly or lack of motivation - heart miscommunicating with kidney, or imagining into the future or the past -heart being taken over by the liver/hun.

Edited August 30, 2008 by Hua Dao

[宁]

In Daoist meditation you want to cultivate the 5 shens/spirits and then unify them into the one central shen. The five shens reside in the 5 organs and each has an opening to the outside that needs to be closed and turned inward to meditate - hun/liver - eyes - draw back in through the eyes and don't look outside, zhi/kidney - ears- close off and don't listen etc. Then when you're closed off to the outside it is very easy for the dream-like and imaginitive 'hun' spirit to become active and distracting so you need to quiet and calm the 'hun' which possibly has been poorly translated as the 'ego mind'. You don't want to attempt to quiet the 'shen' consciousness mind (you), only the 'hun', so you have to understand the difference between the 2.

 

The state of wuwei is achieved when the 5 shens have been cultivated and unified into the central shen/spirit that resides in the heart. All decisions are instantaneous and correct without doubt or inner debate. All physical actions are agile and done with minimal required energy and follow the most appropriate path in that instance. Thought without thought. Doing without doing. Typically we have an inner dialogue that slows down thought -heart communicating with spleen, or not acting quickly or lack of motivation - heart miscommunicating with kidney, or imagining into the future or the past -heart being taken over by the liver/hun.

 

Great post Hua Dao!

[Hua Dao]

A little more detail: Draw in through the eyes - liver/hun; Close off the ears and listen inward- Kidneys/zhi; Breathe in through the nose, inhale longer than exhale- Lungs/Po; Close the mouth gather and swallow the saliva - Spleen/ Yi; Touch the tip of the tongue (tip of the heart) to the soft palate, roof of mouth to close the opening to the Heart/shen.

 

In the Lungs/Po, Po is the physical soul that comes from the earth, it is the physical movement of 'jing' in the body which is connected to the 'wei qi' that travels under the skin and controls the opening and closing of the pores. So there is also a closing off of the pores and drawing the 'jing' back to the dantian or mingmen area between the kidneys. Qigong or Daoyin is a little different than meditating where you are sending the jing and weiqi to the extremities.

 

The heart/shen stores long term memory. The kidneys remember the short term memories. The Spleen/ yi is the intellect that stores the memories of your interests or studies.

 

The lungs/po are the body's instincts or natural ability to survive- it controls the weiqi which protects the body without having to be thought about by the mind(shen). (In chinese martial arts a great deal of strategy is put into tricking an opponents 'po' and striking where their weiqi hasn't gotten to.)

 

The liver/hun is the creative, dreaming mind. It comes from the heavens and doesn't come into the body until 3 days after birth. (While the 'po' is thought to arrive around the 3rd trimester and the 'shen' doesn't truly manifest until around the age of one's earliest memories as it is the 'po' instinctual soul that is keeping you alive and controlling all your actions.) The 'hun' is active when you dream, it can leave the body and is responsible for the out of body experiences. Alcohol disturbs the liver and brings the 'hun' out when you're awake which is responsible for the inebriated state of mind and why when you're sober the thoughts you had while drunk typically contradict your reality. The 'hun' needs to be kept in check by the mind (shen) but the closer you can make the reality of your life to live in accordance to the hun's desires the happier and healthier you will be.

 

The Po and Hun can get a little more complicated- there are actually 3 huns that correlate to 3 passes in the body and there are 7 po's that correlate with the 7 chakras.

 

The spleen is another problem or block in meditation that is easily affected by one's diet. The spleen is related to the mouth and saliva and using the digestive enzymes to break apart food. The pancreas and small intestine are connected to the spleen which is figuring out what the food is, then breaking it apart, then the small intestine decides what to absorb and excrete. The spleen/zhi also does the same with problems or situations. It is like your sub-conscious or gut feelings. When it isn't functioning properly you have worrisome or obsessive thoughts that go around in circles.

Edited September 1, 2008 by Hua Dao

[Stigweard]

[hugo]

THE SECRET OF THE GOLDEN FLOWER- http://www.alchemylab.com/golden_flower.htm

 

Aren't we pure energy to begin with? No. We're beings of matter. If you believe your pure energy try walking through a wall or flying. I've heard people argue that were already pure energy before and then wax vexy about quantum level stuff and that our bodies are primarily space as is everything else, but the "walking through the wall" experiment proves them to be just word games. We are physical state beings and not energy state beings.

 

Doesn't it just depend on your perception at the gross level vs. the internal level? Maybe.... are you one of those people who like to say "were already one with the universe" if I were to say, "I want to be one with the universe"? In the ascended state you are one with the universe to the point that your aware of EVERYTHING going on here on earth. Such as you know what I am drinking and if I like it or not as I am in Michigan while your there in Mass. Its not a matter of perspective on internal and external in my opinion.

 

What benefit does this have? Back to my original question: why? what is the goal of that? Immortality. You might say were already immortal but we are not. In the ascended state if you take a bullet to the head it means nothing since you are pure energy. If you do discorperate you can make yourself a new body at will. You can spend the morning on the surface of the sun, noon on the moon and evening eating dinner in Paris if you want or you can discorperate and be beyond time and space.

 

Can you do any of that? You might say you dont want to but hey.... I do. Thats my goal in practicing Taoism. Can you dig it?

 

I agree with this. As much as I also believe that we are "already Enlightened etc." I don't experience that it goes very deep if we don't realize it completely at all levels of our being, energetic, physical, mental, intellectual etc. Its one thing to say "we are already Enlightened" or ascended or whatever and think it on a purely intellectual level - its a completely different thing to "be" and know it at every level. It's that realization at every level that would let you be aware of everything everywhere.

 

Realization at the intellectual level seems pretty easy where as even just a simple realization at the physical body level such as detaching the mind's reaction to pain is pretty profound. Training the body to realize that its just pure energy and can pass through walls would indicate a highly developed level of mind that has permeated into the body. It would indicate a mind that is able to transcend beliefs and illusions so whether this mind is applied to gaining other powers etc or to shed Karma, beliefs, illusion its going to be a damn fine tool to do so.

[Hua Dao]

There are a few different daoist models that I don't think truly contradict each other on this. The 3 hun correlate with jing, qi, and shen, shen in this term is more related to the central shen and the stimulation of the pituitary gland. While jing is connected to the adrenals. The 3 hun are inside the body and need to build up to move on to the next level above.

 

The 7 po relate to the 7 chakras. Sexual desire in the po has its counterpart inside with the hun. This is where the comparison of hun to 'ego' or 'super-ego' and 'po' to 'id' comes from. Animals are said to only have 'po' and not 'hun'. Hun is the human soul.

 

Po is the physical manifestation of jing in the body. Po like the auras can be seen, hun cannot be seen. If a person dies in a terrible way the 'po' can become a ghost. The po can be trapped in areas of the body through trauma and is what is seen and felt when released through different body-work methods.

 

If po is looked at as the physical or external manifestation of jing near the outside of the body (weiqi), then hun is dealing with the ethereal and internal manifestation of jing to qi that moves on the inside.

 

"In the cultivation of Tao the integration of Hun and Po considered to be very important. One needs to place the animal souls beneath the guidance of the spiritual souls so that all can benefit. This brings true significant harmony."

 

The hun we have control over so it can be used to control the po or instincts like using the hun to take over control of the breath and other autonomic functions of the po.

 

When we die our consciousness heart/shen dies, the hun returns to the heavens, the po remains with the body for a year and then goes back into the earth.

 

Here's another very similar model:

 

"Taoist View on Life and Death:

Life: Man, like all living things, belongs to the world of nature and has limited life cycle. Hence, man should learn to love his body and develop both its physical and spiritual potentials. Whatever human desires should be kept in moderation. Man should perform charitable acts, be modest and thrifty, and love his fellow human beings in order to achieve an inner peace.

 

Taoism believes that man embodies the ying and the yang. The yang component comprises the three Hun (三魂) and the ying component comprises the seven Po (七魄).

The three Hun (魂) are made up of:Tai Guang (胎光), Shuang Ling (爽靈) and You Jin (幽精).

 

The seven Po (魄) are made up of: Shi Gou (尸狗), Fu Fu (伏夫), Que Yin (雀阴), Tun Zei (吞贼), Fei Du (非毒), Chu Hun (除秽) and Chou Fei (臭肺). These are the filthy elements inside our body.

 

As recorded in the book You Yang Za Zhu (酉阳杂俎), "The three Hun form the skeleton and the seven Po make up the flesh". A process of ying and yang combining (a merger of heaven and earth) makes Man to give him a physical form, and that is when the three Hun are assembled. Thereafter, every seven days brings into the body a Po; and within a period of 49 days, the entire seven Po would be assembled. That moment is called the Full-month (弥月).

 

Death: is not the ending of life but the beginning of a next stage in life: the "spiritual stage". Taoists are therefore advised to undertake Chao Yu (超幽), a ritual that would allow the deceased's spirit (the three Hun) to transport itself from the realm of Jiu You (九幽) to the Dong Hua Ji Le (东华极乐) realm, the eternity of the other world. However, the seven Po linger after death and Taoists believe that a ritual should send off each of these seven Po once every seven days. Only when that is done at the end of 49 days, is the deceased fully at rest and also capable of blessing the living descendants from that other realm."

 

The 7 filthy elements likely relate to unblocking the chakras. ?

Edited September 1, 2008 by Hua Dao

[phore]

Very interesting - do you have some more information on The Secret of the Golden Flower? As I've stated before, I am foreign to Taoism but have studied other eastern practices (yogic meditation, buddhism, and hinduism in particular).

 

I guess I don't understand what the purpose of transforming the physical body into pure energy. Aren't we pure energy to begin with? Doesn't it just depend on your perception at the gross level vs. the internal level? What benefit does this have? Back to my original question: why? what is the goal of that?

 

I tend to stray away from dogma as it is very easy to become attached to the system but I'm never shy when it comes to exploring and experiencing first hand before drawing any conclusions

 

The kunlun book (remember the one i recommended to you a while back) has a meditation in it called the secret of the golden flower of maoshan. I am getting good results with it.

 

 

By transforming the body to pure energy we are assuming the body is made of what we call matter. We are assuming that matter is condensed to an extremely low vibration. the goal is to raise that vibration. Think about what happens when you split an atom. it releases all the energy that created it. thats pretty much the goal here.

Edited September 1, 2008 by phore

[Stigweard]

There are a few different daoist models that I don't think truly contradict each other on this. The 3 hun correlate with jing, qi, and shen, shen in this term is more related to the central shen and the stimulation of the pituitary gland. While jing is connected to the adrenals. The 3 hun are inside the body and need to build up to move on to the next level above.

 

The 7 po relate to the 7 chakras. Sexual desire in the po has its counterpart inside with the hun. This is where the comparison of hun to 'ego' or 'super-ego' and 'po' to 'id' comes from. Animals are said to only have 'po' and not 'hun'. Hun is the human soul.

 

Po is the physical manifestation of jing in the body. Po like the auras can be seen, hun cannot be seen. If a person dies in a terrible way the 'po' can become a ghost. The po can be trapped in areas of the body through trauma and is what is seen and felt when released through different body-work methods.

 

If po is looked at as the physical or external manifestation of jing near the outside of the body (weiqi), then hun is dealing with the ethereal and internal manifestation of jing to qi that moves on the inside.

 

"In the cultivation of Tao the integration of Hun and Po considered to be very important. One needs to place the animal souls beneath the guidance of the spiritual souls so that all can benefit. This brings true significant harmony."

 

The hun we have control over so it can be used to control the po or instincts like using the hun to take over control of the breath and other autonomic functions of the po.

 

When we die our consciousness heart/shen dies, the hun returns to the heavens, the po remains with the body for a year and then goes back into the earth.

 

Here's another very similar model:

 

"Taoist View on Life and Death:

Life: Man, like all living things, belongs to the world of nature and has limited life cycle. Hence, man should learn to love his body and develop both its physical and spiritual potentials. Whatever human desires should be kept in moderation. Man should perform charitable acts, be modest and thrifty, and love his fellow human beings in order to achieve an inner peace.

 

Taoism believes that man embodies the ying and the yang. The yang component comprises the three Hun (三魂) and the ying component comprises the seven Po (七魄).

The three Hun (魂) are made up of:Tai Guang (胎光), Shuang Ling (爽靈) and You Jin (幽精).

 

The seven Po (魄) are made up of: Shi Gou (尸狗), Fu Fu (伏夫), Que Yin (雀阴), Tun Zei (吞贼), Fei Du (非毒), Chu Hun (除秽) and Chou Fei (臭肺). These are the filthy elements inside our body.

 

As recorded in the book You Yang Za Zhu (酉阳杂俎), "The three Hun form the skeleton and the seven Po make up the flesh". A process of ying and yang combining (a merger of heaven and earth) makes Man to give him a physical form, and that is when the three Hun are assembled. Thereafter, every seven days brings into the body a Po; and within a period of 49 days, the entire seven Po would be assembled. That moment is called the Full-month (弥月).

 

Death: is not the ending of life but the beginning of a next stage in life: the "spiritual stage". Taoists are therefore advised to undertake Chao Yu (超幽), a ritual that would allow the deceased's spirit (the three Hun) to transport itself from the realm of Jiu You (九幽) to the Dong Hua Ji Le (东华极乐) realm, the eternity of the other world. However, the seven Po linger after death and Taoists believe that a ritual should send off each of these seven Po once every seven days. Only when that is done at the end of 49 days, is the deceased fully at rest and also capable of blessing the living descendants from that other realm."

 

The 7 filthy elements likely relate to unblocking the chakras. ?

 

Thank you my friend _/\_

 

I would very much like it if you referenced the literature you are quoting from.

 

Graci

[Patrick Brown]

Isn't it all about scoring an 'own goal'? Others, of course, think it's all about shoving light bulbs up their arse!

[宁]

What school of tao do you practice, Hua Dao?

Interesting articles, to say the least...

[Hua Dao]

Edited September 1, 2008 by Hua Dao