What is the goal of Taoism?

[Unconditioned]

So I've been reading a lot of the forums here and an observation I've made is that I see a lot of people focusing on the abilities that are possible when working with Qi. But what is the goal? Aside from being able to impress your friends (ego ego ego) what is the real point?

 

I understand the goal of Buddhism, Yoga (meditative not physical), etc. but do not see much real use to spending years of training and meditating just to be able to harness energy.

 

Is there a loftier goal of understanding what we are/aren't what reality is/isn't realization, transcendance, etc.? Perhaps I'm focusing too much on Yin energy and not enough on Yang but I tend to see a lot of egoism in pursuing these Qi arts. Please don't take this the wrong way, it's not a critique; just an observation from someone new to the forum and Taoism.

 

Thank you.

[Pietro]

So I've been reading a lot of the forums here and an observation I've made is that I see a lot of people focusing on the abilities that are possible when working with Qi. But what is the goal? Aside from being able to impress your friends (ego ego ego) what is the real point?

 

I understand the goal of Buddhism, Yoga (meditative not physical), etc. but do not see much real use to spending years of training and meditating just to be able to harness energy.

 

Is there a loftier goal of understanding what we are/aren't what reality is/isn't realization, transcendance, etc.? Perhaps I'm focusing too much on Yin energy and not enough on Yang but I tend to see a lot of egoism in pursuing these Qi arts. Please don't take this the wrong way, it's not a critique; just an observation from someone new to the forum and Taoism.

 

Thank you.

 

In our school of Taoism we recognise two goals. The first goal is to become a human being. Once you have reached that very advanced stage you can try to aim for the next which is becoming one with the Dao.

 

Pietro

[Jakara]

So I've been reading a lot of the forums here and an observation I've made is that I see a lot of people focusing on the abilities that are possible when working with Qi. But what is the goal? Aside from being able to impress your friends (ego ego ego) what is the real point?

Thank you.

 

The manipulation of qi/prana is said to be a valid technique to reach enlightenment according to taoists, tantric buddhists and yogis, to mention a few.

 

As you are suggesting though, that may not be the real motivation for learning such techniques for many people. It must be difficult to distinguish those who manipulate qi for power (ego), and those who maniuplate qi for attaining enlightenment.

 

Ive heard many reasons why this path is chosen over one of pure meditation, such as: health benefits; useful physical powers. Its also supposedly a faster path.

 

Its interesting that the pure meditation path apparently also brings heightened energy levels aswell as physical powers. Perhaps the qi manipulation is to accelerate the process that pure meditation would achieve naturally anyway. Just speculating though.

[Unconditioned]

The manipulation of qi/prana is said to be a valid technique to reach enlightenment according to taoists, tantric buddhists and yogis, to mention a few.

 

As you are suggesting though, that may not be the real motivation for learning such techniques for many people. It must be difficult to distinguish those who manipulate qi for power (ego), and those who maniuplate qi for attaining enlightenment.

 

Ive heard many reasons why this path is chosen over one of pure meditation, such as: health benefits; useful physical powers. Its also supposedly a faster path.

 

Its interesting that the pure meditation path apparently also brings heightened energy levels aswell as physical powers. Perhaps the qi manipulation is to accelerate the process that pure meditation would achieve naturally anyway. Just speculating though.

 

Ah, that makes more sense to me now I've heard of masters such as Sri Ramana Maharishi who never mentioned energy at all yet had reached the goal. Many paths to the mountain top but only one peak.

 

Thank you =)

[Taiji Bum]

My ultimate goal is "Ascension".

[Unconditioned]

My ultimate goal is "Ascension".

 

To where? From where?

[Eric23]

To become balanced

[doc benway]

I would distill the "goal" of Daoism down to two Chinese words:

無為

Wu Wei

One succinct English translation might be - to not go against the natural course of things

Just my view, many others have a different and equally valid opinion

There's a nice discussion about Wu Wei on wiki...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wu_wei

[ZenStatic]

Immortality

[phore]

each practicioner has his own reason for practicing.

 

each mentioned here is valid

 

just as a general outline

 

Merging with the void

 

immortality/ascension- existing as a being of pure energy. ascension from matter to energy. then you can merge with the void at your leisure

 

martial power

 

health

 

healing

 

manifestation

 

self actualization/ psychological health

 

then of course super powers

 

 

you may start out with a few of these goals and then change them as you are transformed. Dont be attached to the outcomes.

The goaless goal

Edited August 26, 2008 by phore

[mwight]

My goal for my practice is to transcend. I want to evolve, to slough of this meat body and become something more. To leave this world and all its drama behind, never to return. Evolution, transcendence, eternal rest, never being reborn. Those are my goals for my practice.

[Stigweard]

In my course of study there are five initial goals or 'blessings':

 

1. Happiness

2. Longevity

3. Wealth

4. Health

5. Natural death

 

I am also in accord with xuesheng and Pietro.

[Taiji Bum]

To where? From where?

You've never heard of Ascension before?

[Aetherous]

The manipulation of qi/prana is said to be a valid technique to reach enlightenment according to taoists, tantric buddhists and yogis, to mention a few.

 

Definitely. Or it's the other way around? Enlightenment being the valid technique to manipulate qi.

[mYTHmAKER]

In our school of Taoism we recognise two goals. The first goal is to become a human being. Once you have reached that very advanced stage you can try to aim for the next which is becoming one with the Dao.

 

Pietro

 

 

Which school of Taoism do you belong to.

[Patrick Brown]

To become self realised and then to eternally become more and more self realised.

 

 

Definitely. Or it's the other way around? Enlightenment being the valid technique to manipulate qi.

Yes

[Pietro]

Which school of Taoism do you belong to.

 

I learn from Bruce Frantzis, and from his students.

 

We follow a tradition which, according to the tradition itself, is said to be originated before Buddhism came to China.

 

In fact to have an unbroken lineage through Lao Tzu. If this is so I cannot say, but I have noticed a difference from most of the other taoist teachings I have found online (and offline). The only one I see being somehow similar is Taomeaw's.

 

I don't say that the tradition is this old to make a claim of authenthicity or importance, but I AM making a claim of difference. I do feel a difference in the way problems are confronted and solved. I feel a difference in the way meditations are done.

 

The tradition is generally refered to as the water method. Or the Taoist Water method. And according to what is passed inside the tradition the name 'water tradition' as opposed to 'fire tradition' has been used in China to distinguish practitioners of this older (again no offence meant) school of Taoism. Where as the new Taoism that was generated integrating more Buddhist concepts was called the Fire tradition. Now, according to various histories of Taoism there is a division between an older Taoism and subsequent Neo-Taoism. Neo-Taoism which included many elements from Buddhism, but also from Confucianism. They tend to speak about Neo Taoism as something that appeared around year 900.

 

Yet according to the tradition I study from, Buddhism was there before, and the 'fire tradition' was older than year 900.

 

So there is not a perfect match from what the tradition tells us, and what historical sources report. Or maybe the equation Fire tradition=neo Taoism (that sometimes Bruce makes) is not a perfect equation.

 

I hope this helped.

 

Pietro

[seadog]

Return.

back to before the birth and death.

How can there be any goal in the vastness of no thing

pure potential is want of no thing.

The guest knows about time and space water and fire

The master knows nothing.

[Unconditioned]

You've never heard of Ascension before?

 

No. To me it's just another label I don't come from a Taoist background so some of the usual terms are foreign to me.

 

My point about "To where? From where?" is that to me there is no where to ascend to. We're already there, just need to be aware of our nature, confide in that infinite space (Tao), and ultimately drop the ego mind and merge with the Tao. All of which can be done through many means.

 

I believe seadog said it best in the last post:

The guest knows about time and space water and fire

The master knows nothing.

 

Tools, guidance, and their labels have their purpose. But to hammer a nail into a board one doesn't need to know all the different shapes, sizes, uses, history, etc. of a hammer.

 

I mean no disrespect to anyone here so I apologize if I have done so.

 

Thanks for all the replies =)

[windblown]

I follow Philosophical Taoism...I study the Tao Te Ching.

 

This involves reading, meditation...just being aware...that's about it.

 

I don't strive for enlightenment, perfection of body, immortality or qi stuff. I have tried some of these paths and I ended up feeling pressured, not good enough, while at the same time feeling superior to others who were not on this path. I want to transcend my ego-not inflate or deflate it.

 

I just try to go with the flow, keep it simple, and accept each moment.

 

 

My goals...

 

I'd like to laugh more and be more at ease with difficult life situations and relationships,

 

I'd like to be able to detach with love and temper my empathy

[Taiji Bum]

No. To me it's just another label I don't come from a Taoist background so some of the usual terms are foreign to me.

 

My point about "To where? From where?" is that to me there is no where to ascend to. We're already there, just need to be aware of our nature, confide in that infinite space (Tao), and ultimately drop the ego mind and merge with the Tao. All of which can be done through many means.

 

If all you have to do is drop the ego mind to merge with Tao then I think your only at the level of mind. Taoists traditionally try to transform body into one of pure energy by transforming the body and mind stage by stage. We say 100 days to build the foundation, 10 months to carry baby shen, 3 years to nurture and 9 years to train. At the end you emit light and move the earth and your physical body transforms into one of light over time. I follow THE SECRET OF THE GOLDEN FLOWER most closely and it doesn't say anything about dropping the ego mind. From what I can tell Taoist want the ego to survive.

 

The thought that "were already there" is common but I dont subscribe to it. Many here do however so dont take what I say as normal for Tao Bums or Taoists in general.

 

Heres two ideas of Ascension:

Theosophical Ascension- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ascended_master

TV Show Stargate- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ascension_(Stargate)

[Unconditioned]

If all you have to do is drop the ego mind to merge with Tao then I think your only at the level of mind. Taoists traditionally try to transform body into one of pure energy by transforming the body and mind stage by stage. We say 100 days to build the foundation, 10 months to carry baby shen, 3 years to nurture and 9 years to train. At the end you emit light and move the earth and your physical body transforms into one of light over time. I follow THE SECRET OF THE GOLDEN FLOWER most closely and it doesn't say anything about dropping the ego mind. From what I can tell Taoist want the ego to survive.

 

The thought that "were already there" is common but I dont subscribe to it. Many here do however so dont take what I say as normal for Tao Bums or Taoists in general.

 

Heres two ideas of Ascension:

Theosophical Ascension- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ascended_master

TV Show Stargate- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ascension_(Stargate)

 

Very interesting - do you have some more information on The Secret of the Golden Flower? As I've stated before, I am foreign to Taoism but have studied other eastern practices (yogic meditation, buddhism, and hinduism in particular).

 

I guess I don't understand what the purpose of transforming the physical body into pure energy. Aren't we pure energy to begin with? Doesn't it just depend on your perception at the gross level vs. the internal level? What benefit does this have? Back to my original question: why? what is the goal of that?

 

I tend to stray away from dogma as it is very easy to become attached to the system but I'm never shy when it comes to exploring and experiencing first hand before drawing any conclusions

[windblown]

I tend to stray away from dogma as it is very easy to become attached to the system but I'm never shy when it comes to exploring and experiencing first hand before drawing any conclusions

 

 

 

Me Too !!! Being attached to a system is too confining for me, however, I admire those that practice such an ardent self-discipline and stick-to-it-tiveness. I lack tenacity but I have elasticity !!!

 

There are many paths up the same mountain...none is better than another.

 

Isn't the goal of Taoism to be goal less anyway?

[mYTHmAKER]

I learn from Bruce Frantzis, and from his students.

 

We follow a tradition which, according to the tradition itself, is said to be originated before Buddhism came to China.

 

In fact to have an unbroken lineage through Lao Tzu. If this is so I cannot say, but I have noticed a difference from most of the other taoist teachings I have found online (and offline). The only one I see being somehow similar is Taomeaw's.

 

I don't say that the tradition is this old to make a claim of authenthicity or importance, but I AM making a claim of difference. I do feel a difference in the way problems are confronted and solved. I feel a difference in the way meditations are done.

 

The tradition is generally refered to as the water method. Or the Taoist Water method. And according to what is passed inside the tradition the name 'water tradition' as opposed to 'fire tradition' has been used in China to distinguish practitioners of this older (again no offence meant) school of Taoism. Where as the new Taoism that was generated integrating more Buddhist concepts was called the Fire tradition. Now, according to various histories of Taoism there is a division between an older Taoism and subsequent Neo-Taoism. Neo-Taoism which included many elements from Buddhism, but also from Confucianism. They tend to speak about Neo Taoism as something that appeared around year 900.

 

Yet according to the tradition I study from, Buddhism was there before, and the 'fire tradition' was older than year 900.

 

So there is not a perfect match from what the tradition tells us, and what historical sources report. Or maybe the equation Fire tradition=neo Taoism (that sometimes Bruce makes) is not a perfect equation.

 

I hope this helped.

 

Pietro

 

 

Thank you

[Taiji Bum]

Very interesting - do you have some more information on The Secret of the Golden Flower? As I've stated before, I am foreign to Taoism but have studied other eastern practices (yogic meditation, buddhism, and hinduism in particular).

 

I guess I don't understand what the purpose of transforming the physical body into pure energy. Aren't we pure energy to begin with? Doesn't it just depend on your perception at the gross level vs. the internal level? What benefit does this have? Back to my original question: why? what is the goal of that?

 

I tend to stray away from dogma as it is very easy to become attached to the system but I'm never shy when it comes to exploring and experiencing first hand before drawing any conclusions

THE SECRET OF THE GOLDEN FLOWER- http://www.alchemylab.com/golden_flower.htm

 

Aren't we pure energy to begin with? No. We're beings of matter. If you believe your pure energy try walking through a wall or flying. I've heard people argue that were already pure energy before and then wax vexy about quantum level stuff and that our bodies are primarily space as is everything else, but the "walking through the wall" experiment proves them to be just word games. We are physical state beings and not energy state beings.

 

Doesn't it just depend on your perception at the gross level vs. the internal level? Maybe.... are you one of those people who like to say "were already one with the universe" if I were to say, "I want to be one with the universe"? In the ascended state you are one with the universe to the point that your aware of EVERYTHING going on here on earth. Such as you know what I am drinking and if I like it or not as I am in Michigan while your there in Mass. Its not a matter of perspective on internal and external in my opinion.

 

What benefit does this have? Back to my original question: why? what is the goal of that? Immortality. You might say were already immortal but we are not. In the ascended state if you take a bullet to the head it means nothing since you are pure energy. If you do discorperate you can make yourself a new body at will. You can spend the morning on the surface of the sun, noon on the moon and evening eating dinner in Paris if you want or you can discorperate and be beyond time and space.

 

Can you do any of that? You might say you dont want to but hey.... I do. Thats my goal in practicing Taoism. Can you dig it?