The Bell experiment

[thelerner]

A podcast I was listening to mentioned this experiment: They had 3 groups, Zen meditators, Yogi's, and control group of non practitioners. They had them sit in a room and meditate while hooked up to record their brain waves. Periodically they'd ring a loud bell periodically.

 

The control group reacted to the bell strongly when it went off but there brains registered it less and less as time went on. The Zen group registered the bell strongly each time it went off. The Yogi group didn't or barely register the bell at all.

 

I think the experiment shows the awakened mind of the zen group. They didn't become habitualized. But were they as deep as the Yogi's who blanked it out, sealed there senses?

 

Is one better then the other or do we need both? Is one better for healing, depth of practice, developement of Siddhis?

 

I tend to think the Zen awareness in meditation is a better training for daily consciousness, but yogic sealing the sense (also done in taoism) is moving deeper into the self. I see value in both.

 

What are your thoughts?

 

 

Michael

[h.uriahr]

This is going to go back and forth forever. They both work well together or seperate. The type of meditation is based entirely on individual goals

[mouse]

Zen meditation is like awarness meditation (vipasanna). Yogis do concentration meditation (samadhi).

 

entering high levels of concentration/jhanic states makes you withdraw inwards until your external senses are not observed.

 

There is a lot more that can be discussed but this is the gist of why the results are different.

 

Only vipassana leads to nibbana. The 8th jhanic state can lead to a momentary nibbanic experience but is not permanant.

 

Awarness concentration can lead to a level of jhana called insight concentration but is different from the concentration achieved by concentration meditation.

 

Depending on lineage, you will practice both or one. Samadhi leads to siddhi development and always has a touch of ego involved. However, jhana when used in vipasanna allow for deep piercing insight.

 

Hope this clarifies.

 

Enjoy your practice.

mouse

[pacala]

[SiliconValley]

Yogis do concentration meditation (samadhi).

 

Not true! Samadhi in real sense is Laya or complete dissolution. What is there to concentrate on afer dissolution?

 

Only vipassana leads to nibbana.

Well, ha ha! Even the word nibbana is a corrupted form of its Sanskrit predecessor Nirvana, which comes mainly from the Yogic tradition. Ok! Jesus is the only way to salvation ...

 

 

Samadhi leads to siddhi development and always has a touch of ego involved. However, jhana when used in vipasanna allow for deep piercing insight.

 

Which Samadhi are you talking of? Sabija, Nirbija, Salamba, Niralamba, Savikalpa, Nirvikalpa, Kevala, Shakta, Unmani....? There are differences among these states and there is a varying level of duality in some, but the purpose of none of these is really attainment of Siddhi. Buddha did teach Vipassana but was that not simply a re-packaging of the Hamsa Upasana or Sakshi Bhava Dhyana discussed and practiced for hundreds of years [as supplementary techniques] before the origin of Buddhism by adherents of Monism, Yoga and Tantra? The same can be seen extensively with Mantras, Mandalas, iconography, names of deities etc.

 

It is better to appreciate the uniqueness of various techniques without getting into comparison or competition, especially in cases such as these ...

Edited September 7, 2008 by SiliconValley

[mouse]

Not true! Samadhi in real sense is Laya or complete dissolution. What is there to concentrate on afer dissolution?

Well, ha ha! Even the word nibbana is a corrupted form of its Sanskrit predecessor Nirvana, which comes mainly from the Yogic tradition. Ok! Jesus is the only way to salvation ...

Which Samadhi are you talking of? Sabija, Nirbija, Salamba, Niralamba, Savikalpa, Nirvikalpa, Kevala, Shakta, Unmani....? There are differences among these states and there is a varying level of duality in some, but the purpose of none of these is really attainment of Siddhi. Buddha did teach Vippasana but was that not simply a re-packaging of the Hamsa Upasana or Sakshi Bhava Dhyana discussed and practiced for hundreds of years [as supplementary techniques] before the origin of Buddhism by adherents of Monism, Yoga and Tantra? The same can be seen extensively with Mantras, Mandalas, iconography, names of deities etc.

 

It is better to appreciate the uniqueness of various techniques without getting into comparison or competition, especially in cases such as these ...

 

 

SiliconValley,

 

I am not familiar with the terms you used here. I am studying under the Terevada tradition and not versed in other traditions.

 

You may wish to visit http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors...a/wheel351.html for clarification on the exact meaning of the terms I used in relation to the context (Terevada background).

 

As for samadhi, the context I expressed can be referenced to the quote below.

"Samadhi derives from the prefixed verbal root sam-a-dha, meaning to collect or to bring together, thus suggesting the concentration or unification of the mind. The word "samadhi" is almost interchangeable with the word "samatha," serenity, though the latter comes from a different root, sam, meaning to become calm.

 

In the suttas samadhi is defined as mental one-pointedness, (cittass'ekaggata M.i,301) and this definition is followed through rigorously in the Abhidhamma. The Abhidhamma treats one-pointedness as a distinct mental factor present in every state of consciousness, exercising the function of unifying the mind on its object. From this strict psychological standpoint samadhi can be present in unwholesome states of consciousness as well as in wholesome an neutral states. In its unwholesome forms it is called "wrong concentration" (micchasamadhi), In its wholesome forms "right concentration" (sammasamadhi).

 

In expositions on the practice of meditation, however, samadhi is limited to one-pointedness of mind (Vism.84-85; PP.84-85), and even here we can understand from the context that the word means only the wholesome one-pointedness involved in the deliberate transmutation of the mind to a heightened level of calm. Thus Buddhaghosa explains samadhi etymologically as "the centering of consciousness and consciousness concomitants evenly and rightly on a single object... the state in virtue of which consciousness and its concomitants remain evenly and rightly on a single object, undistracted and unscattered" (Vism.84-85; PP.85)"

 

Hope this clarifies.

 

Enjoy your practice.

mouse

[rain]

I get very fremmedgjort by all these terms

 

try or do?

[Pero]

Well, ha ha! Even the word nibbana is a corrupted form of its Sanskrit predecessor Nirvana, which comes mainly from the Yogic tradition.

 

That's a pretty silly thing to say. It's like saying Silikonska Dolina is a corrupted form of Silicon Valley, but in fact it's just in Slovenian.

 

From personal experience I would say that the yogis deep meditation definetivly gives the best results for generating chi and opening up the channels

 

That's funny, considering Bodhri and Nan Huai Chin are saying Zen is the best school/method.

[SiliconValley]

That's a pretty silly thing to say. It's like saying Silikonska Dolina is a corrupted form of Silicon Valley, but in fact it's just in Slovenian.

 

Silly, if you pick a random example such as this. Any decent book on linguistic studies in East Asia or Indology can be referred to find even the specific example on the word nibbana, its origin from the Sanskrit word nirvana, its root/dhatu etc. Its no kan and li requiring brain stuff to decipher

 

That's funny, considering Bodhri and Nan Huai Chin are saying Zen is the best school/method.

 

 

So?

Edited September 7, 2008 by SiliconValley

[xenolith]

aim

like a laser beam.

[Pero]

Silly, if you pick a random example such as this. Any decent book on linguistic studies in East Asia or Indology can be referred to find even the specific example on the word nibbana, its origin from the Sanskrit word nirvana, its root/dhatu etc.

 

Ok, so then you consider all current languages perversions of others?

 

So?

 

I was talking to Sykklepump.

[sheng zhen]

http://www.ptjournal.org/cgi/content/short/88/7/832 - Breathing: A sign of life...

 

I would say the zen meditators have an advantage in every way. If you are awake, fully awake, there sould be no need to shut away this world. But yes, it would be interesting to see how deep they where in meditation. Maby watching brainwaves at the same time would be a good addition to the experiment?

 

Thelearner, do you maby have a link to the study you mentioned?

[Unconditioned]

Simply put - comparing one path to another is in my opinion a petty case. What difference does it make if you take one road or another to the same place?

 

'Better' is a very subjective word anyhow! Labels, labels, labels. I understand the historical significance of a word's spelling but as far as leading to understanding/awareness the label is less important than the practice and goal.

 

Not everyone's go is to obtain siddhi's (spelling?). Myself in particular could care less about them.. they're trivial in comparison to True understanding/wisdom and only solidify the ego making it more difficult to realization. That's not a dig on anyone, everyone has their own reasons for things - just my personal opinion.

 

To say that your school is better/worse than another only promotes discord, ego, and arguments. Look at the world religions of today, they all have Truth within them but people get caught up in the symantecs - which has lead to many many wars the basis being different labels for the same thing, for the same intention and destination.

 

No need to get caught up in the details =) The method that resonates with you is the best method.

[thelerner]

Forget the 6th or 7 th level of Sadhina, I'm just tring to wait in line with more patience .

 

Mindfulness, health, and enlightenment are just side effects.

 

I don't have much information on the study. My information came from a podcast at the Awakened Heart Project and was titled Five Steps for Spiritual Transformation. The speaker said the study was done in the 1960's and a buddy of his was in the Zen group. The site is Zen Buddhist Jewish .

 

When I'd do emptiness meditation in the past I'd start w/ negating my egoic belongings, body, thoughts, past, future, emotions, name, family etc. and end with I am soul and spirit, I want to go home.

 

These days I'm ending with I am breath and awareness. When meditating I keep putting my awareness back into those two aspects, listening and accepting. Before I'd be emptier, but perhaps duller too. I'd count breaths til my mind was quiet and let go.

 

Anne Wise has done serious non denominational work on meditators brain waves. Experienced meditators get into strong delta waves. The best have strong waves of all types going at once.

 

I think everyday life is enhanced by the zen/vispassana approach, but there's deep healing and opening available from are available through sealing the senses and going deep.

 

Both are incomplete without a level of dharmic/moral instruction. Without which you can be a level Whatever, but still remain an egoic asshole. Personally I like Infinite Smile podcasts from Michael McAllistair for wonderful dharmic talks, Awakened Heart Project has some good stuff too.

 

Michael

[hagar]

[Teddy]

Well... If we assume that the yogis and zen blokes were both equally deep in meditation, then the zen geezers had everything the yogis had plus extras ie awareness. So it seems that the zenaroonies are the winners. In my experience most people who have got deeply in to Indian mystisism live in cloud cookoo land, and people who are in to zen are usually (not always) a lot more 'alive'. This gives a fascinating insight in to why that might be.

[Unconditioned]

Well... If we assume that the yogis and zen blokes were both equally deep in meditation, then the zen geezers had everything the yogis had plus extras ie awareness. So it seems that the zenaroonies are the winners. In my experience most people who have got deeply in to Indian mystisism live in cloud cookoo land, and people who are in to zen are usually (not always) a lot more 'alive'. This gives a fascinating insight in to why that might be.

 

Just out of curiosity what are you basing this on? Which Yogi's vs. which Zen masters?

 

There are many Indian mystic traditions as well as Zen traditions. I've seen many Yogi's that live life quite much and aren't just sitting in caves for 20+ years. In fact, there are many that strongly advise against it.

 

As in my previous post, who cares? If a tradition brings you to the goal what difference does the label make or the culture surrounding it? Just more skandhas, more layers to peel back. You have to do the same with any tradition. And there should be a balance between inner work and outer work - i.e. 'keep your feet on the ground and your head in the clouds'.

 

Just my 2c =)

[thelerner]

The reason its important is not due to 'Who would win in a meditation match?' Its important (to me) because regardless of our system, most of us do what can be called emptiness meditation, just sitting.

 

We have a wide variety of practitioners here and I'd like to find out what directions people go during emptiness meditation. Benefits of sharpening awareness during meditation vs. sealing the senses.

 

 

A word thats tossed around is the Void. A deep place of peace beyond thought and time. Does sealing the senses get you there faster? People here have said don't expect to get there without steady work of years doing 2 hour sessions, preferably in lotus.

 

I'd like to get a feel for where people are during there emptiness meditation. I find my experience deepened when I went for sharpening awareness, but I see the benefits of both.

 

 

Michael

[Unconditioned]

The reason its important is not due to 'Who would win in a meditation match?' Its important (to me) because regardless of our system, most of us do what can be called emptiness meditation, just sitting.

 

We have a wide variety of practitioners here and I'd like to find out what directions people go during emptiness meditation. Benefits of sharpening awareness during meditation vs. sealing the senses.

A word thats tossed around is the Void. A deep place of peace beyond thought and time. Does sealing the senses get you there faster? People here have said don't expect to get there without steady work of years doing 2 hour sessions, preferably in lotus.

 

I'd like to get a feel for where people are during there emptiness meditation. I find my experience deepened when I went for sharpening awareness, but I see the benefits of both.

Michael

 

I tend to mix the two into one. Meaning, 'sealing the senses' isn't avoiding them or pushing them away. It's being aware of them and letting them be. So by sharpening awareness we 'seal the senses' in that they are there, we are aware of them, but we go 'under' them to their source. In doing that, you can enter into the void in a very deep state which can lead to insights, healing, bliss, etc.

 

So by sharpening awareness we in turn seal the senses when we enter into a deep meditative state.

 

Maybe I'm only speaking of awareness meditation or talking about something completely different - just my interpretation!

 

By the way thanks for the clarification about the question!