Thoth question

[witch]

I've been following Hathor for a long time, but I'm trying to get my pantheon consistent. My Mercury energy must be increased, and of course that means Thoth.

 

It's hard to find out Thoth things (say that five times fast! ) because Google is all muddied up with alchemy and Aleister Crowley. Does anyone know if Thoth likes kyphi? Hathor likes myrrh. I've found a Thoth storax reference, but I'd like to find out for sure.

 

I know some of you here are hep to the old ways, so I thought I would ask!

[sheng zhen]

I've been following Hathor for a long time, but I'm trying to get my pantheon consistent. My Mercury energy must be increased, and of course that means Thoth.

 

It's hard to find out Thoth things (say that five times fast! ) because Google is all muddied up with alchemy and Aleister Crowley. Does anyone know if Thoth likes kyphi? Hathor likes myrrh. I've found a Thoth storax reference, but I'd like to find out for sure.

 

I know some of you here are hep to the old ways, so I thought I would ask!

Ive been studying the Emerald Tablets of Thoth for years and got lots of spiritual guidance from him. A great book! A great guide! But thats many years ago.

 

Dont know what kyphi is... Is it an incence?

[Taoist81]

I've been following Hathor for a long time, but I'm trying to get my pantheon consistent. My Mercury energy must be increased, and of course that means Thoth.

 

It's hard to find out Thoth things (say that five times fast! ) because Google is all muddied up with alchemy and Aleister Crowley. Does anyone know if Thoth likes kyphi? Hathor likes myrrh. I've found a Thoth storax reference, but I'd like to find out for sure.

 

I know some of you here are hep to the old ways, so I thought I would ask!

 

Regardless of what you think of Crowley his compendium 777 (of which he was only one compiler of) is quite useful for questions of this sort. 777 based mostly on tradition lists Thoth with Musk, Mastle, White Sandal, Storax, Mace and Fugative Odours.

[witch]

Yes, it's an Egyptian incense that was also used as a medicine. It contains honey and raisins.

 

Thoth told me it was time to show some love!

[Apech]

Hmmm interesting question and I can't find any reference to an incense specially associated with Thoth - though I suppose you would be safe with Kyphi as "Egyptian". Perhaps best to intuit the right perfume with reference to Thoth associations - i.e. moon, sacred ibis, baboon, healing fo the eye of Horus and so on.

 

Here are some links which don't answer the question but do have ingredients for Kyphi

 

http://homepage.mac.com/scarab1/incense.html

 

http://www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/trades...fume_makers.htm

[witch]

Regardless of what you think of Crowley his compendium 777 (of which he was only one compiler of) is quite useful for questions of this sort. 777 based mostly on tradition lists Thoth with Musk, Mastle, White Sandal, Storax, Mace and Fugative Odours.

Hmm...the "ancient Egyptian formula" says violets and musk. I'm guessing that's right, with storax thrown in for good measure--although maybe benzoin instead.

 

Thank you!

 

ooh, interesting, storax (liquidamber) and benzoin very different, according to catherine yronwode, and she would know. I guess I will buy the real deal.

Edited September 10, 2008 by witch

[Apech]

Witch,

 

Why do you feel that you need mercury/Thoth?

[witch]

Because of my natal chart. My north node is in Gemini, in my second house.

 

Very silly, I have proved to myself that astrology doesn't have practical applications, but I am still following it for the placebo effect, I suppose!

 

Anyhow, Venus rules my second house, and I've been concentrating on that, because acting like a Gemini comes pretty easy to me, with my Gemini Jupiter third house singleton. The Egyptian Venus is Hathor, and I picked her because she's got an Aquarian flavor, and my Venus is 12th house Aquarius. She's very silly, so it's a good fit. Most Venus goddesses aren't wacky enough to be Aquarian.

 

But I'm hoping to wrench my Gemini manifestations away from my emphasized third house back to the second house where I need to be. Thoth was a little off-putting to me at first, especially with all the Golden Dawn occult magick practices, but I think the way he was at first before the Greeks meddled with him, and then the British, I like him just fine. He's very Capricorny, and I have a Capricorn Mercury so that's a good fit too.

 

Thinking about things, I think the Greeks and British overthought things. Too much ninth house stuff, where everything had to be stuffed into some intellectual overarching system. I think the Egyptians were much more practical. For example, I suspect the animal-headed gods things was a lot more straightforward and childlike than all those nutty alchemists thought. I think they refer to obvious simple things. For example, I follow Hathor. I can easily have hundreds of orgasms in a row, so there's that, but also the way my body is, I very easily lactate. I have to caution my men not to be too bitey and forceful with my nipples or it will cause me to make milk. And Hathor's a cow goddess. And Thoth, now, as an ibis, they are known for standing very still for long periods of time with their elbows sticking out. Maybe men who act like ibises incarnate Thoth? In other words, I think the Egyptians were talking about physical bodies, not spiritual concepts.

[Patrick Brown]

Alice Bailey's book on esoteric astrology may be of interest (complete online text): http://kingsgarden.org/English/Organizatio...rology/toc.html

 

Bailey is somewhat convoluted so this much easier read about the seven rays may be more digestible (complete online text): http://www.theosophical.ca/SevenRays.htm

 

The seven rays on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Rays

[sheng zhen]

And Thoth, now, as an ibis, they are known for standing very still for long periods of time with their elbows sticking out. Maybe men who act like ibises incarnate Thoth?

Really?? That sounds like the wuji zhan zhuang position, hahaha

[witch]

Really?? That sounds like the wuji zhan zhuang position, hahaha

 

I know, that's my point! All that time fooling around with quicksilver and chemical salts would have better served alchemists if they had cultivated their bodies.

 

The really funny thing is Hathor's name was Gold. It was a common nickname for her. I suspect the alchemists were chasing after the wrong kind gold, fool's gold!

[witch]

Alice Bailey's book on esoteric astrology may be of interest (complete online text): http://kingsgarden.org/English/Organizatio...rology/toc.html

 

Bailey is somewhat convoluted so this much easier read about the seven rays may be more digestible (complete online text): http://www.theosophical.ca/SevenRays.htm

 

The seven rays on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Rays

 

See, that's the sort of silliness I'm talking about, creating an esoteric system built around the magic of the number seven. The reason seven was magic was because it was referring to the planets. It's not like eight that refers to the sexual chakras and union between a man and woman, that won't change, or five, the five-pointed star that Venus traces in the sky. Biology and astronomy have made those immutable. But seven has changed to thirteen, and now finally it's complete because there are only twelve signs of the zodiac and they now all have their proper rulers (Pluto-Charon double planet counts as one ruler). So the seven thing was only ever an interim number. And someone wasted a lot of time building up all those mystical sevenly correspondences--Balderdash!

[Stigweard]

I know, that's my point! All that time fooling around with quicksilver and chemical salts would have better served alchemists if they had cultivated their bodies.

 

The really funny thing is Hathor's name was Gold. It was a common nickname for her. I suspect the alchemists were chasing after the wrong kind gold, fool's gold!

 

 

I agree with you as I have written in "Why is Taoism Different?"

 

Just as the ancient Taoist encoded some of their Nei gung with alchemical descriptions so to, in my mind, did the Thoth/Hermes tradition encode their secrets.

[Patrick Brown]

[witch]

Octaves and colors are manmade. There is no color division of the spectrum, it's arbitrary. Likewise with music.

 

Chakras, yes, there is that. Although I'm used to thinking about boy chakras and girl chakras, so that makes twelve. But you are right, we each have seven.

[rain]

Of the 14 chakras and 3 nerve wirings, which are running interwoven around the spinal cord, there are 7 main centers. Chakras are said to function as pumps or valves, regulating the flow of energy through our energy system.

 

7 + 7

 

&

 

7+ 7

 

------------

 

+ 1* = LOVE ?

[Patrick Brown]

7 + 7

 

&

 

7+ 7

 

------------

 

+ 1* = LOVE ?

[Taoist81]

Octaves and colors are manmade. There is no color division of the spectrum, it's arbitrary. Likewise with music.

 

Chakras, yes, there is that. Although I'm used to thinking about boy chakras and girl chakras, so that makes twelve. But you are right, we each have seven.

 

Almost all divisions are arbitrary. Truth is one, but the sages call it by many names. We seem to all be in agreement that the planet Venus is not actually in charge of Love, but it works as a representative of the "state" of Netzach or of any of the other attributions of Venus. The whole of the Tree of Life is nothing more than a useful way of looking at the universe. Most things (as Crowley notes in 777) do not easily fit into one specific category. An example is Isis, who can be the Universal Mother and thus a Sephirah, or a Fertility goddess representative of the element of Earth and thus a Path between two other Sephirah. Just as octaves are "arbitrary" (notably the Chinese system has 5 tones not 7 or 8), but are essential to learning to use a (western) musical instrument, likewise any of the various systems of attainment have their divisions that are representative of "-nesses" that are essential to attainment using that system. The 7 planets are represented in the Sephirah as well as some of the Paths on the Tree of Life, the Chakras, the Goddesses and Gods, even the permutations of the I Ching can be categorized by the Tree but that doesn't mean they are the Tree or that the Tree is them. The end point of all of it though is to see unity, but first one must understand the divisions and relationships. Solve et Coagula

[witch]

I agree with you as I have written in "Why is Taoism Different?"

 

Just as the ancient Taoist encoded some of their Nei gung with alchemical descriptions so to, in my mind, did the Thoth/Hermes tradition encode their secrets.

 

The only problem with that is that Hathor (Gold) doesn't bring immortality.

 

Hmmmm...or maybe it does. Hathor is increased by consumption of omega-3 fatty acids. Scarab beetle paste that the ancient Egyptians used to eat, particularly women to help with fertility, is rich in omega-3 fatty acids. Omega-3 fatty acids help with fertility, female sexuality, and are positively correlated with longer life worldwide--the countries with the highest omega-3 fatty acid intakes have the longest-living populations. When the typical age of death was less than 40 years old, perhaps living until 90 would seem like immortality.

 

But that's not the sort of immortality that taoists are chasing after, it's just good health.

 

 

The 7 planets are represented in the Sephirah as well as some of the Paths on the Tree of Life, the Chakras, the Goddesses and Gods, even the permutations of the I Ching can be categorized by the Tree but that doesn't mean they are the Tree or that the Tree is them. The end point of all of it though is to see unity, but first one must understand the divisions and relationships. Solve et Coagula

 

Now see, I disagree with that. Forcing things into some sort of artificial unity loses the particularity of the things.

[Apech]

Witch you say: "Maybe men who act like ibises incarnate Thoth? In other words, I think the Egyptians were talking about physical bodies, not spiritual concepts."

 

Well - the characteristic of Egyptian thought (pre-socratic and pre-philosophical) is that they did not abstract concepts. So for instance a pyramid built to represent the primordial creation mound was that mound. Every temple (or nearly) had its own version of this mound and each was regarded as being the true mound without contradiction. In the same way they could have many creator gods - Atum, Ptah, Amen, Re and so on.

 

Same goes for the sacred ibis, the god Thoth and the man who incarnates Thoth. So if a man is capable of still meditative thought, who acts like an ibis then they are being Thoth.

 

But I have a problem with physical bodies/ not spiritual concepts - to the Egyptians the body was a spiritual thing - the mummification process which produced a kind of divine body.

 

The point is that to the Egyptians reality was composed of and structured by the netcher (gods) so the world was the bodies of gods, so to speak. When the wind blew it was the ba of Shu, the sun was the great eastern ba - actually and not symbolically.

 

There is therefore a direct correlation (as you point out) between physiology and divine power - for instance lactation and Hathor. For this reason milk was seen as being a form of the eye of Horus in the offering formulae.

 

In terms of lactation you might want to look at a goddess called Ipy (a hippo goddess who appears in the Pyramid Texts) her milk is identified with light (possibly the milkyway) which feeds the king on his heavenly journey:

 

"Unis's [says to his] mother Ipy, give this Unis that breast of yours, that this Unis may transport it to his mouth and this Unis may suck that white, dazzling, sweet milk of yours."

 

Unis is the name of the king.

[Patrick Brown]

[witch]

Well, that's my point. If true immortality is very spiritual and esoteric, then Hathor has nothing to do with that, because she is neither spiritual nor esoteric. She is the goddess of things, for example makeup and beer. She was very fond of turquoise and other pretty stones like lapis. She was honored by getting really drunk and dancing around for a long time.

 

And by the way, I don't understand why there is all this esoteric symbolism about the ankh. The ankh is OBVIOUSLY a sistrum, Hathor's sacred instrument.

 

Witch you say: "Maybe men who act like ibises incarnate Thoth? In other words, I think the Egyptians were talking about physical bodies, not spiritual concepts."

 

Well - the characteristic of Egyptian thought (pre-socratic and pre-philosophical) is that they did not abstract concepts. So for instance a pyramid built to represent the primordial creation mound was that mound. Every temple (or nearly) had its own version of this mound and each was regarded as being the true mound without contradiction. In the same way they could have many creator gods - Atum, Ptah, Amen, Re and so on.

 

Same goes for the sacred ibis, the god Thoth and the man who incarnates Thoth. So if a man is capable of still meditative thought, who acts like an ibis then they are being Thoth.

 

But I have a problem with physical bodies/ not spiritual concepts - to the Egyptians the body was a spiritual thing - the mummification process which produced a kind of divine body.

 

The point is that to the Egyptians reality was composed of and structured by the netcher (gods) so the world was the bodies of gods, so to speak. When the wind blew it was the ba of Shu, the sun was the great eastern ba - actually and not symbolically.

 

There is therefore a direct correlation (as you point out) between physiology and divine power - for instance lactation and Hathor. For this reason milk was seen as being a form of the eye of Horus in the offering formulae.

 

In terms of lactation you might want to look at a goddess called Ipy (a hippo goddess who appears in the Pyramid Texts) her milk is identified with light (possibly the milkyway) which feeds the king on his heavenly journey:

 

"Unis's [says to his] mother Ipy, give this Unis that breast of yours, that this Unis may transport it to his mouth and this Unis may suck that white, dazzling, sweet milk of yours."

 

Unis is the name of the king.

 

I mean exactly that too. For me the physical is the spiritual.

 

Ipy came to me one time, although I thought it was Taweret. It was a difficult time for me, one of the most difficult times of my life, and Taweret came to me and said, "Take hope. Be patient, Hathor is helping you and you will come through this." That's why I follow Hathor. I didn't know who she was.

[Patrick Brown]

She is the goddess of things, for example makeup and beer. She was very fond of turquoise and other pretty stones like lapis. She was honored by getting really drunk and dancing around for a long time.

 

And by the way, I don't understand why there is all this esoteric symbolism about the ankh. The ankh is OBVIOUSLY a sistrum, Hathor's sacred instrument.

I can get with that, do you have to get naked?

 

"OBVIOUSLY a sistrum" No it was a small version of the then fashionable dildo!!

[Taoist81]

Now see, I disagree with that. Forcing things into some sort of artificial unity loses the particularity of the things.

"Forcing" things into an "artificial" unity is not the goal, nor is it possible. By examining relationships, differences etc. one can see the "actual" unity. A "forced unity" will inevitably break down. Hence "work" on the Tree in Western Traditions. One learns the basics then explores them. Nothing is to be taken on faith, everything is to be tested and if it fails, it fails.

[Apech]

Well, that's my point. If true immortality is very spiritual and esoteric, then Hathor has nothing to do with that, because she is neither spiritual nor esoteric. She is the goddess of things, for example makeup and beer. She was very fond of turquoise and other pretty stones like lapis. She was honored by getting really drunk and dancing around for a long time.

 

And by the way, I don't understand why there is all this esoteric symbolism about the ankh. The ankh is OBVIOUSLY a sistrum, Hathor's sacred instrument.

 

True immortality to the Egyptians was about becoming an "akh" - 'effective spirit'. The spells in the sacred texts were called 'se-akhs' which means something like "akhifiers" or "akh makers". To the Egyptians the created world had three parts - the earth (where mankind lives), the sky (where the gods live) and the Dwat (the inner world or underworld). A person comprises several entities or 'bodies' which can inhabit these realms. The physical body on the earth, the ba in the sky and the ka in the Dwat. The akh being is formed by full integration of these three. So for instance the ba-bird is shown to revisit the body/mummy in the tomb where they together reenact the daily union of Osiris and Ra in the underworld.

 

By spirit or akh the Egyptians meant something as tangible and effective (powerful) as the physical body and not some abstract ethereal entity. So the point about immortality was to become imperishable and not subject to birth and death - as an akh (whether incarnate physically or not).