xenolith Posted February 21, 2009 (edited) Edited February 21, 2009 by xenolith Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Qlites Posted February 21, 2009 Hi Ape. The forms are what Jenny created for her Tai Chi Class. There are 10 but she only showed us 8. Each open and close like Tai Chi. Then it is nothing but chi kung to open each channel so you can feel what it is like when it is open. We started from the top and go down the body. This was created for easy remember. Each form are really short except for no. 8. It is nothing most of you have not seen. One of them is chi shower where you gather earth chi and sky chi and wash yourself with it. Peace, Q.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Starjumper Posted February 21, 2009 (edited) Edited February 21, 2009 by Starjumper7 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
farmerjoe Posted February 21, 2009 (edited) Sifu Jenny: Each individual is different. A good doctor will not prescribe the same medicine for all of his or her patients, no matter how good the medicine is. This implies each persons form is the individuals to practice. To own. To make theirs. To live it. Sifu Jenny: You do not need to rely on your teacher all the time. It is your own journey. A teacher can merely point a direction. The path is yours. It is under your own feet. Only you can make a difference. Again. Personal Ownership and responsibility. Sounds like learning how to drive the car comes after Spontaneous Alignment or getting your car tuned up so you can get to your destination safely! Wow. Is this how Sifu Lamb developed the forms she taught you Cameron? Did she learn them or was taught them from opening to the spontaneous movements? Joe. Edited February 21, 2009 by farmerjoe Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cameron Posted February 21, 2009 (edited) -- Edited February 23, 2009 by Cameron Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idquest Posted February 21, 2009 Form or formless it all work both very good at different levels some might start off formless and think damn i want to learn a very nice ancient form of a dao or buddhist way to see where and what that master was trying to understand or you can try and work it out doing formless work but if you have no idea of internal arts or cultivation you could end up f@cking yourself ups. Ape Ape, Do you classify spontanious qikong as formless? If yes, would zen be formless as well? And if so, did you mean that they could be detrimental without practicing some forms like tai chi at some point of cultivation? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ya Mu Posted February 21, 2009 Spectrum, Spontaneous movement isn't an ability. It's like you're asking someone to show you how they pick weeds, rather than have them show you the great garden they've tended to. The movement is really nothing to show. It differs for everyone! Some may not even have any movement at all. What matters is the emptiness and bliss...and how can that be demonstratable? It takes somewhat of a discerning mind to be able to notice when someone's spirit has changed. Not everyone can tell just from words on a forum. Most can't even tell from talking face to face! The path is really subjective. Sorry. I tried to wade through this thread and it appears there is some conflict about posting spontaneous movement and/or how it ties in with forms?? The above statement is an explanation by someone who has obviously practiced a spontaneous form and shows the truth of the matter; the forms are EXPERIENTIAL. This means that no amount of demonstration will mean a single thing to anyone but that the person experiencing it will find great meaning. The Kunlun talked about is definitely not the only form of this type. The Stillness-Movement that I practice and teach is a form where the MIND/BRAIN are taken out of the equation so the energy can move the body. Would watching this mean anything to anyone? No. Would I care if any of my students posted a video of them doing it? No, because another person could not possibly practice the form from watching someone else do it. These forms can be far more powerful in that some of the limitations are removed from the equation. Should they be integrated with movement forms? Probably a good idea, I do, but from the standpoint of Stillness-Movement absolutely not necessary. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cameron Posted February 21, 2009 (edited) -- Edited February 23, 2009 by Cameron Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
林愛偉 Posted February 21, 2009 There is no such thing as a formless form. The "formless" movement practices is simply a practice where one was not previously taught the form they are moving through. Taiji Quan started this way. The only thing "special" about the "formless" form movement is at the timeyou do it, you reap benefits, after that time, if you try to do the exact same moves again, you have defeated the purpose of "spontaneous" movement. With formless, there is form. Notice the formless and you have noticed the form. Notice the form, you thus recognize that which has no form. "Emptiness is form, form is emptiness." Its not a riddle of the Heart Sutra, it is simple; because one holds to forms, the formless appears. Because one holds to formlessness the forms appear. You want real spontaneity, put an end to your views of forms and formlessness! Physical movement on the other hand is only spontaneous when there was no physical movement prior to that, otherwise, the only true spontaneous movement is that where not even a thought arose and not even a movement manifested. Peace, Lin Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cameron Posted February 21, 2009 (edited) -- Edited February 23, 2009 by Cameron Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spirit Ape Posted February 22, 2009 But Cam its not what you do, what Lin has said!!! I believe and how I was taught to have a good understanding of all the systems internal workings, yin yang theories and cultivation methods. knowing soft and hard forces etc. If spontaneous was all you need why the hell would Jenny create friggin forms for you? lol Ape You gotta have both to see and know both as both are the same thing and come from each other..... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idquest Posted February 22, 2009 Taiji Quan started this way. The only thing "special" about the "formless" form movement is at the timeyou do it, you reap benefits, after that time, if you try to do the exact same moves again, you have defeated the purpose of "spontaneous" movement. Thanks, Lin, As usual, the highest quality answer. Now I remember that I was told that all qikong originated as some spontaneous movements. The question remains, whether spontaneous movements practiced by their own could be detrimental to practice/health? At least this is how I understand what Ape says. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spectrum Posted February 22, 2009 Unorthodox movements may inspire someone. :boing: We could have all practiced together and he could express any "issues" he has with her style of teaching or philosophy on filming your forms and putting them up on Youtube or something. Use it or lose it. Times are a changing. I guess what I circle back to is the idea that Spectrum mentioned that we are all sitting around the campfire together and that this is a real Taoist community. In my view, that idea is a lie. That's your thing, not mine. This is not a "real" taoist community, nor did I state that, I simply said that this is "one" of the campfires of information that contemporary man sits around to share information. Film doesn't lie, its a non-text source of information sharing that you would be wise to exercise. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rain Posted February 22, 2009 (edited) There is no such thing as a formless form. The "formless" movement practices is simply a practice where one was not previously taught the form they are moving through. Taiji Quan started this way. The only thing "special" about the "formless" form movement is at the timeyou do it, you reap benefits, after that time, if you try to do the exact same moves again, you have defeated the purpose of "spontaneous" movement. With formless, there is form. Notice the formless and you have noticed the form. Notice the form, you thus recognize that which has no form. "Emptiness is form, form is emptiness." Its not a riddle of the Heart Sutra, it is simple; because one holds to forms, the formless appears. Because one holds to formlessness the forms appear. You want real spontaneity, put an end to your views of forms and formlessness! Physical movement on the other hand is only spontaneous when there was no physical movement prior to that, otherwise, the only true spontaneous movement is that where not even a thought arose and not even a movement manifested. Peace, Lin AHH. my time to sigh with relief! thank you Lin. back to silence and movement. Edited February 22, 2009 by rain Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
xenolith Posted February 22, 2009 ...a non-text source of information sharing that you would be wise to exercise. Uh huuh. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rain Posted February 22, 2009 Unorthodox movements may inspire someone. :boing: Insipration! Yes! ..if you copy and copy and polish and polish learn and learn forms.. sooner or later if u love it ur gonna feel some curiosity or hickup and breake free.to play a little . use classic foundation for intuitive or nothought-combinations - dont u think? some couples amuse themselves with synchrone movements too. copy, follow, lead, or get out of concepts.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
林愛偉 Posted February 22, 2009 (edited) The question remains, whether spontaneous movements practiced by their own could be detrimental to practice/health? At least this is how I understand what Ape says. Movement will not harm you , unless you are like an unbridled horse. Intuitive movement can only harm if the teachings leading to it are unwholesome. Doing it on your own will not do any harm unless one likes to flip and go crazy. Then expect a broken neck! Peace hahah, Lin Edited February 22, 2009 by 林愛偉 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spirit Ape Posted February 22, 2009 So why do most of you feel that form isnt as good or less benifical? How long have you been training form or Kung fu for? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
林愛偉 Posted February 22, 2009 So why do most of you feel that form isnt as good or less benifical? How long have you been training form or Kung fu for? Form is good. It is a guideline for how to walk, move, recognize changes in all things. Once that is mastered, one can let it go. All this formlessness being superior is a waste of time. Its no more superior than form. Formlessness should not be a goal to attain, but a state experienced on the path way. The human body is a form. When moving, there will be a form moved with. There is nothing formless, thus nothing with form. No riddles, but simple state of attainment. You need a road to recognize the importance of not needing one. To mature through it and gain some gongfu in order to realize is wise. Cultivating through forms are like planting the seeds, cultivating the soil and reaping the harvest. Grasping at the harvest without proper cultivation of the land will quickly and surely leave dead crop, and poisoned soil. Peace, Lin Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spirit Ape Posted February 22, 2009 Brother Lin, hahaha this is what I was hoping you would say..... How was chinese new year, Gung Hei Faat Choy! Ape WYG Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
林愛偉 Posted February 22, 2009 Brother Lin, hahaha this is what I was hoping you would say..... How was chinese new year, Gung Hei Faat Choy! Ape WYG HAHAHA am I really that predictable? hahaha New Years was fun! Had over 40 people at a small dinner...set up Jing Xin Yuan, teaching more now, running a Chinese Medicine Clinic...busy busy busy... was thinking of delivering newspapers too! Too early in the morning though 3-7am... I still ahve morning practice to get to. Peace, Lin Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spirit Ape Posted February 22, 2009 Congrats on your school and clinic i wish you all the best in your business you are a very nice person you shoudl do well. Not pradictable but I knew the answer thats why I posted the question as I feel alot of people listen to you more...hahahhaha take care Evil Ape Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
林愛偉 Posted February 22, 2009 Congrats on your school and clinic i wish you all the best in your business you are a very nice person you shoudl do well. Not pradictable but I knew the answer thats why I posted the question as I feel alot of people listen to you more...hahahhaha take care Evil Ape I am a silly monkey who rambles on and on. My wife doesn't even like to listen to me.. hahaha Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spirit Ape Posted February 22, 2009 LOL Sounds familar!!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spectrum Posted February 22, 2009 (edited) There is no such thing as a formless form. The "formless" movement practices is simply a practice where one was not previously taught the form they are moving through. There is no such thing as formed formlessness. The form movement practice is simple a practice where one was not previous taught the formlessness they are moving through. With formless, there is form. Notice the formless and you have noticed the form. Notice the form, you thus recognize that which has no form. With form, there is formless. Notice the form and you have noticed the formless. Notice the formless, you thus recognize that which is has form. ... it is simple; because one holds to forms, the formless appears. Because one holds to formlessness the forms appear. It is paradoxial, because one holds to formlessness, the form dissapears. Because one holds to form, the formless appears. You want real spontaneity, put an end to your views of forms and formlessness! Considering this carefully. Putting yourself in a neutral position to act decisively seems to have the most potential for spontaneously addressing. Edited February 22, 2009 by Spectrum Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
