Spontaneous Movement : Form and Formless

[Aetherous]

Kunlun or Jennys art level 1 starts with form (holding the ball) plus feet raised this is form which brings you your spontaneous movements. Without it (form) level 1 you wouldnt have understood what it (kunlun) was about. So please dont go knocking form when indeed you have learnt form which made you understand formless.

 

If I knocked "form" in the past, I shouldn't have. I agree that some sort of form is necessary, and the K1 posture is more about form than formlessness. The spontaneous movements are more like a side effect, and it isn't exactly a spontaneous qigong practice. At least that's how I view it now...but that's always changing.

 

You can do stillness meditation and you will get movement inside and sometimes outside, you can do movement and it takes you to stillness of the mind.

 

Its one in the same thing just different paths to getting there....

 

It's similar...I'm not sure if it's exactly the same. The K1 form is different than just sitting there. Different forms have different effects.

[Spirit Ape]

It's similar...I'm not sure if it's exactly the same. The K1 form is different than just sitting there. Different forms have different effects.

 

EXACTLY!!! We never know what effects you will get from practice thats why there isnt one is better then other if you understand MOVEMENT properly it leads you to stillness and emptiness inside the mind. I know that whatever happens to me when I get there I cant discribe but its Pure Bliss, see things even differently BUT could even explain this. So form and formless both have different paths but work similar but when both are exercised properly where it takes up each time is different.

 

When I do formless work its also very peaceful / blissful / empty etc but each time of Formless / spontaneous work is also different.

 

I do know that studies on martial arts can help people live happier and longer, styles like Taiji are big on people studying them as well all sorft of Qi Kung. Its picking the best that suits you at this time!

 

If Kunlun feels good for you then that is it, some try and say its not good some say they love itn doesnt matter just undrestand Qi and have fun can do that doing anything called letting Go and not giving a sh!t what people think or say.

 

Kung Fu is about expression also....

 

 

Ape

[Spectrum]

These semantic koan like circles; Yes form and formless are paradoxial they lead into and out of each other. This is the fundamental cycle between stillness and movement in taoist martial culture. The point of the koan is pause realization and tnemnethgilne.

 

The k1 standing exercise is tiger; counterpart to dragon; ground out through the heels.

Edited February 26, 2009 by Spectrum

[Spirit Ape]

Well I dont know if Max added that standing K1 form maybe people that went to Jenny can say if they learnt a standing K1 form?

[freeform]

In all honesty, I think the actual form - holding the ball, heels raised - is just the very surface of K1...

 

for example - as I'm sitting here typing this, I can tune in to the current and allow it to manifest in my body... I don't need to go into the posture...

 

Of course you're right, Ape - 'just let go' will get you very far... and no you don't need Max to learn spontaneous shaking... but you do need a transmission for it to work well - you could go meet a Seiki Jutsu practitioner, you could go meet Ratu Bagus you could meet some african bushman shamans, or Bradford Keeney, then there's Jenny Lamb, the lady in New Zealand that Scotty learns from, you could get it from Ya Mu and many many others... But I believe transmission is an important part of this...

 

I'm sure you'll re-frame what I say cynically (I don't mind ) - but it's important to understand that a transmission is not getting something 'external'... your deepest, most divine part is always there - it's just very covered up... your most divine aspect is connected to everything... so when it comes into contact with someone who's divine aspect is burning bright, it starts to rejoice and become brighter, more noticeable, and then the letting go part is just the act of freeing up your body, mind and emotions to get back to a full, direct relationship with that...

[farmerjoe]

Edited February 26, 2009 by farmerjoe

[farmerjoe]

Of course you're right, Ape - 'just let go' will get you very far... and no you don't need Max to learn spontaneous shaking... but you do need a transmission for it to work well - you could go meet a Seiki Jutsu practitioner, you could go meet Ratu Bagus you could meet some african bushman shamans, or Bradford Keeney, then there's Jenny Lamb, the lady in New Zealand that Scotty learns from, you could get it from Ya Mu and many many others... But I believe transmission is an important part of this...

 

I read Bradford Keeney's book too "Bushman Shaman" he was practicing spontaneous movement long before he met the african shamans. No one gave him a transmission.You may need a good teacher for occasional guidance and direction but not one to get you started or keep you going. Joe.

Edited February 26, 2009 by farmerjoe

[Ya Mu]

[Cameron]

Transmission.

 

This is an interesting distinction between these two great teachers.

 

I won't attempt to distinigush there philisophical differences on Taobums. I mean, it's tempting, since I believe in many ways they probably correspond to other schools such as the Esoteric Buddhist and Taoist schools way of looking at things vs. the Advaita or Zen way of looking at them.

 

I guess I am just in a space of being deeply appreciative of having studied Kunlun with both Max and Jenny. I consider them both my teachers. And I am able to integrate any differences in views no problem.

 

At the end of all of the endless talk and gossip there position is the same. The key to getting anywhere is to do the practice.

 

If you resonate with Jenny great. She is wonderful and I really hope any of you who want to study with her get the opportunity.

 

I feel seeing her in some ways completed the circle for me. But that circle began with Max and his transmission. My path is to practice now.

Edited February 26, 2009 by Cameron

[freeform]

Thanks Joe,

 

Firstly - if you're looking for 'truth' - please don't look for it in words.

 

I know that Jenny says she doesn't give a transmission. And from her perspective it's very true - and it's very important to the way she teaches that she says that. From my point of view it's impossible not to give or receive transmission from anyone!!!

 

You give a transmission, Joe. Ape gives a transmission. we all do and we're constantly 'receiving' transmission from everyone. Gloria (mgd) gives a transmission that (for me) is rather palpable. Spectrum does too...

 

If you focus on the space between the words and the thoughts you will feel it (and I mean feel it physically in your body)

 

Brad got a transmission from his grandfather.

 

It's not as mystical as it seems... it's like sound - you hear sound all the time... imagine everyone creates a subtle sound - most people create a noise that's very limited, patterned, discordant. Their sound is garbled and chaotic - you can 'hear' a clear personality - you can hear their limitations, their worries, suppressed emotions - there's just so much of it and you're so used to it that you tune it out (like I tend to tune out the sound of the air conditioning in the office).

 

So - most people are basically noise - many thousands of sounds all playing at the same time - sensitive people can 'tune in' to certain frequencies. A very rare few have integrated so much of their 'parts', patterns, thoughts, motivations that they start producing clear music - not discordant, not chaotic - you can almost hear a smooth, clear, sound. That's the case with Max and with Jenny and with a lot of other great masters and even some lay-people - so when you watch them, listen to them, be near them, they transmit a tune that your body picks up in a yin sort of way...

 

An applied, yang sort of transmission is when the person is able to pull together their energy and play a single tone in your direction - it's like a concentrated version of yin transmission and is very powerful - but is not needed. This tone in turn triggers the same tone that is in you already (it's just being drowned out by the thousands of other tones)

 

What Jenny seems to do is to teach you to direct your awareness inwards, to find that tone within you - by yourself. But the fact is - if you're near her, you will hear the tone she is playing and you will pick it up automatically... why do you think she says that you need to learn the technique in person!?

 

now all of this has been framed in terms of sound... but it's just a metaphor... it's actually beyond sound or light or scent/taste or physical sensation...

[Machin Shin]

Yaksha stirs the sea bottom.

Red dragon settles in slumber.

Lamb chases tail,

caught in a whirlwind of envy.

 

Tut Tut

Held to task whilst in love of Ren.

Sat in the pyramid while cupid became drunk!

Still I love Ren

Sah not much

Sah alot

 

Blank tablet would be nice,

Then the trueman could read what he wants

 

Sah a little more maybe it is just jibberish

Edited February 26, 2009 by Machin Shin

[Spirit Ape]

funniest thread ever!!!

[Spectrum]

rock

palms

rain

tao

Edited February 27, 2009 by Spectrum

[farmerjoe]

funniest thread ever!!!

 

Jenny says that you have to learn the technique in person and not to teach it to anyone else. Max learned the technique in person from Jenny and then added to it, repackaged it and started teaching his version to others. He is also saying it's okay for others to teach his version because he has "certified" teachers. He turned it into a business and now has franchises. Every new teacher will add something to it and start teaching their version and then pass it on and the next person will add something to it and teach their version and so on and so on. I don't know if Jenny asked her teacher if she could teach this practice to others. I don't know if Max asked Jenny for permission to teach it to others. If they didn't ask for permission then would other people based on the example that they've set? So this if the funniest thread but it made me cry last night because it's been so confusing for me.I've been thinking I should just start at the beginning and learn it from Jenny because it just seems to be about being lead within and to your real teacher. Read between the lines freeform? You are kidding right? Real masters learned to master words first and be clear about what they had to say because they knew the ignorant would read them, and the ignorant would add whatever meaning they wanted to words and the spaces between the words distorting it all to suit their purposes. Words are all I've got to measure teachers right now, words and examples that the teachers have set. I got really good advice last night and they said that the best thing would be to talk to the teachers directly and no one else, and I think that's the best advice I've received so far. This is a funny thread, actually this whole situation is funny but, last night I just cried because I'm the funniest thing about all of this. Joe.

[freeform]

Read between the lines freeform? You are kidding right? Real masters learned to master words first and be clear about what they had to say because they knew the ignorant would read them, and the ignorant would add whatever meaning they wanted to words and the spaces between the words distorting it all to suit their purposes.

 

You know many "Real Masters"?

 

You say - "they knew the ignorant would read them, and the ignorant would add whatever meaning they wanted to words"

 

you also say - "He turned it into a business and now has franchises. laugh.gif Every new teacher will add something to it and start teaching their version and then pass it on and the next person will add something to it and teach their version and so on and so on."

 

Yes this thread is funny!

 

And no I'm not trying to undermine you... I'm just pointing out that we're all ignorant when we limit ourselves to words. I suggested countless times to anyone that showed interest to just meet the teacher (it's free with Max) and decide from there.

 

And Joe - I didn't mean 'start adding your own words to the spaces between mine'... I said put your attention there... don't speak, don't start making assumptions, presumptions or evaluations - just listen, watch, feel, taste and smell the space in between the words. You're confused because your mind is jumping from word to word from thought to thought, instead of just letting go.

 

There is a real 'urgency' to you, Joe. Relax - don't take it so personally.

[farmerjoe]

Edited February 27, 2009 by farmerjoe

[farmerjoe]

Never mind.

Edited February 27, 2009 by farmerjoe

[Spectrum]

Thanks so much farmerjoe. I've read your words and have been cogging them around the wheel. I think your summary here is reasonable enough to qoute:

Jenny says that you have to learn the technique in person and not to teach it to anyone else. Max learned the technique in person from Jenny and then added to it, repackaged it and started teaching his version to others. He is also saying it's okay for others to teach his version because he has "certified" teachers. He turned it into a business and now has franchises. Every new teacher will add something to it and start teaching their version and then pass it on and the next person will add something to it and teach their version and so on and so on. I don't know if Jenny asked her teacher if she could teach this practice to others. I don't know if Max asked Jenny for permission to teach it to others. If they didn't ask for permission then would other people based on the example that they've set? So this if the funniest thread but it made me cry last night because it's been so confusing for me.I've been thinking I should just start at the beginning and learn it from Jenny because it just seems to be about being lead within and to your real teacher. Read between the lines freeform? You are kidding right? Real masters learned to master words first and be clear about what they had to say because they knew the ignorant would read them, and the ignorant would add whatever meaning they wanted to words and the spaces between the words distorting it all to suit their purposes. Words are all I've got to measure teachers right now, words and examples that the teachers have set. I got really good advice last night and they said that the best thing would be to talk to the teachers directly and no one else, and I think that's the best advice I've received so far. This is a funny thread, actually this whole situation is funny but, last night I just cried because I'm the funniest thing about all of this. Joe.

[farmerjoe]

QUOTE (Cameron@ Feb 14 2009, 04:36 PM)

 

Incendently, most of the students at the workshop besides Quan and myself are all high level practitioners and students of Max.

Speaks for itself.

 

(QUOTE Cameron @ Feb 22 2009, 10:59 AM)

 

A basic difference-after Jenny's workshop I felt very centered and in my body. Basically really present and in my lower tan tien and heart.

 

After seeing Max I usually feel my 3rd eye/upper tan tien throbbing and my spirit buzzing.

 

So the goal for me is to find a good balance of the two

Centered. Present. Balance. I need all of that first because my spirit is already buzzing. Joe.

Edited March 1, 2009 by farmerjoe

[Cameron]

It sounds like you are being drawn to see Jenny more than Max. That's great. You should respect your inner feeling.

 

If you see her tell her Cameron says hi. I told her I will practice Yi Gong(the original name of the Kunlun practice) for a year before asking her any questions.

 

I hope she does atleast one more workshop for anyone else who wants to see her. Anyway, trust that the Tao will help you with a relaxed and peaceful mind.

 

Cam

Edited March 1, 2009 by Cameron

[Spectrum]

It sounds like you are being drawn to see Jenny more than Max. That's great. You should respect your inner feeling.

 

If you see her tell her Cameron says hi. I told her I will practice

Yi Gong(the original name of the Kunlun practice)

for a year before asking her any questions.

 

I hope she does atleast one more workshop for anyone else who wants to see her. Anyway, trust that the Tao will help you with a relaxed and peaceful mind.

 

Cam

 

Could someone elaborate on the epitimolgy of Yi Gong?

Edited March 1, 2009 by Spectrum

[farmerjoe]

Anyway, trust that the Tao will help you with a relaxed and peaceful mind.

 

[Spectrum]

Quick note on thie spontaneous subject:

 

Why is it when we're falling asleep the mind will replay/replace some really basic motor skillsets, like just now, i was drifting off w/ the idea of just resting that one eye, and then i was taking a step backwards through a door and the jam was catching my foot by the heel of the shoe in my minds eye my equalibrium felt like "catching" my balance but in actuality it was a "startling" awakening...because my physical body as it fired the sequence to "balance" , a rippple of instantness shuttered through those soft silky alpha waves... and there I felt the imagination in full effect, my foot stuck against an imaginary ledge, observation mind fully open, that my foot was caught on while "flinching" that for all intensive purposes was not there, but it was, as I "felt" it, which made it there for my nerves, but not really there. pure mental projection that took on a nervous waveform and manifested as an object to navigate in my body. bizzarr. AND created some interesting spontaneous movements as I was navigating over this "ledge" in reverse. imagination is intimantly connected to the nerves.

 

coming back to edit more in. I can't remember ever having that feeling before so I'm going to play with that in real time. the start awake is diametrically related to relaxing into that falling feeling that brings about oobe, lucidity or a exteamly tangible creative dreamtime.

Edited March 2, 2009 by Spectrum

[Spectrum]

[Spectrum]

Could someone elaborate on the epitimolgy of Yi Gong?

 

Repost from: http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?showto...9116&st=100

 

I don't want to play any games with you Taobums. I will tell you exactly what I have been told regarding this system. After this that's it. Out of respect for Chris, Max, Sifu Jenny and all he wonderful people I have met from this practice. It's not my place. But since I was one of the first here to practice this here is what I know:

 

The "Kunun" practice is from Maoshan Pai. This was told to me first by Chris at the last workshop in NJ. Then I asked Sifu Jenny directly about this at her seiminar. Where is this practice from? Sifu Jenny looked me in the eyes and said the practice is from Maoshan.

 

She also told us the name for the practice is Yi Gong.

 

Sifu Jenny is traditional. She is also a Taoist and Buddhist Scholar. She is extremely careful and meticulous when researching anything. My take is she took this practice as a great gift from her teacher and didn't really have an intention to spread it to the world. She likes small groups. So she probably intended to pass it on here or there.

 

She says the level 1 of Yi Gong is all you need. And she is still exploring the level 1 practice.

 

There is another practice that goes with Yi Gong. But it sounded like none us are near the level to learn it yet. Jenny mentioned Kan was ready but he flew back to Japan before she could see him.

 

She teaches in a very one on one way. So if your interested in studying with her stop all the gossip and talk on Taobums and make the effort to either make one of her workshops or set something up with her. My impression of her is she is open to hellping people but she isn't interested in organizing seminars. I have already mentioned to my East Coast Kunlun friends that seeing Jenny would more than likely be a great benefit if they want to get something going in the future.

 

Sifu Jenny said the goal if Yi Gong practice is non duality. Essentially the same goal in Zen, Advaita and other spiritual paths.

 

Sifu Max is another universe

 

Max told me at the first free talk I met him about his "aunties". I mean it was one of the very first things he told us. Maax has studied with many people. Two of the main ones have been mentioned on Taobums before including Jenny. The other main one is Max's Maoshan Sifu in Hawaii. Max learned the Red Phoenix practice from this teacher.

 

Through his liefetime of studying Maoshan Pai practices like Red Phoenix Max then learned Yi Gong from Jenny. Max combined Yi Gong and Red Phoenix and he said this combination was a good fit. He also says he studied with his "aunties" in Beijing or are high level Maoshan Master's. They told him combining the practices lead to the attainment of Golden Dragon Body. Which Max says is the highest attainment a human being can achive.

 

Max went into some detail on GDB at the last NJ workshop. My take without having had the experience myself is it's like a great opening to the Tao at all levels. Being connected to this and the "other side" while still enjoying your human life. I don't know much else about it.

 

Now I will tell you guys what I was told and that's it from me. No more gossip, no more speculating about my teachers. I have already had to endure enough here. Here is what I was told.

 

Jenny does not recommend combining Red Phoenix with Yi Gong. She says they are different systems within Maoshan and not part of the same system. She said Yi Gong is all you need. it gives you everything.

 

Sifu Max obviously differs in opnion. Also, I will tell you all the truth. after Max gave me the Red Phoenix transmission it doesn't feel like it is my decision or not whether or not practice Red Phoenix. my feeling is my Red Phoenix and Kunlun/Yi Gong practice have been integrated and are really one.

 

I don't have a problem with that. Max is my first teacher of this system so I am fine doing it his way. However, if you really want to follow what Jenny says I would say just see her and not Max. Because my experience has been the Red Phoenix becomes a part of you after the transmission.

 

I embrace it. I am cool with it. I like the practice. I also appreciate that I got Jenny's perspective. They ARE different. Jenny says you don't need anything besides Yi Gong and Max gives you a powerful transmission and Red Phoenix.

 

Anyway, it was nice getting some more backround on these practices. It's cool to know that both Kunlun and Red Phoenix are Maoshan methods.

 

It's possible Max's understanding is greater. It's possible Jenny's is greater. My intention is to practice and come to my own understanding.

 

So follow your inner feelings. If it doesn't feel right to you do something else. This is the last time I will talk about my teachers here.

 

Peace,

 

Cam